What constitutes a good idea for a CC map?

[natty dread]

Well, I think there's a fine balance between "silly" and "innovative". If the gameplay is good and graphics are great, it's ok to make a map that's a bit different.

But then there are ideas that are just plain bad, that have no substance in them other than a novelty gimmick... and those maps will probably be funny for the first 2-3 games, then it's like "meh, let's never play this again"...

So I'd say it depends, and should be judged on a case-by-case basis.

The cow map... sure it's a bit silly, and it's kind of a novelty map. But if the gameplay works, the graphics are good and the theme is consistent between them, then it just might be crazy enough to work. It's not going to be the most popular map on the site, but since there are 200 other choices of maps to play, I don't think it's a big issue.

I also don't buy the "slippery slope" argument in this case. Just because one "bad" map slips through, it doesn't mean the foundry will automatically start producing nothing but bad maps.

[MrBenn]

Just because one "bad" map slips through, it doesn't mean the foundry will automatically start producing nothing but bad maps.

There's a difference between one "bad" map and declining standards in general...

[AndyDufresne]

Just because one "bad" map slips through, it doesn't mean the foundry will automatically start producing nothing but bad maps.

There's a difference between one "bad" map and declining standards in general...

There is also a difference between declining standards and expanding taste. I'm not saying I'd want to play on a lot of maps, but the Foundry has certainly grown in its overall taste since the beginning!


--Andy

[natty dread]

Just because one "bad" map slips through, it doesn't mean the foundry will automatically start producing nothing but bad maps.

There's a difference between one "bad" map and declining standards in general...

Declining standards, as perceived by whom?

Who is the judge of standards here? You? Mibi? Lackattack? Someone else?

[lostatlimbo]

I tend to prefer maps that are doing something different with either gameplay or style.

If you are just recoloring Europe again and changing the date of the war that was fought there, what's the point?

However, some of the maps that seem different are still just an interchangeable setting for basic gameplay. Here's a good rule of thumb: if you can replace the setting and theme of your map with any other similar space and it would still fit, then you have missed an opportunity and are wasting your time (in my opinion).

I don't think it matters so much if the idea is traditional or way out there - as long as it all fits together and seems like it will be fun for most folks who play it, then its probably a good map to see through.

That said, I also think the Cow map is ridiculous and that is why I haven't commented on it - BUT, it doesn't offend me that it exists.

[cairnswk]

....but the Foundry has certainly grown in its overall taste since the beginning!
--Andy

and i think that's a good thing. It makes people think outside of the "acceptable" limits of what is possible.

[thenobodies80]

Just because one "bad" map slips through, it doesn't mean the foundry will automatically start producing nothing but bad maps.

There's a difference between one "bad" map and declining standards in general...

Declining standards, as perceived by whom?

Who is the judge of standards here? You? Mibi? Lackattack? Someone else?

The answer is written in the guidelines, to be precise here: viewtopic.php?f=241&t=105184

The Foundry Team members are the final arbiters of map quality, and will ultimately judge whether or not a map meets the Conquer Club standard.

Although we're discussing (behind the scenes) some possible changes to the current guidelines.
In addition Lackattack has a veto option on all maps, being the owner of the site. Right now that veto option can be found in the text under the beta stamp, but again, also in this case there could be some changes in the future.

I think to have given to you the (current) answer.
Nobodies

[thenobodies80]

That said, I also think the Cow map is ridiculous and that is why I haven't commented on it - BUT, it doesn't offend me that it exists.

Not related with the cow map, but when you (or someone else) thinks that an idea is wrong, ridiculos or the like, you should go there and say what you think. It's hard to do our job if people post only when they have something nice to say.
As always there's a big difference between constructive criticism and just troll/spam the foundry. Mapmakers are supposed to respond in a constructive manner to all comments so don't worry to go there and explain why you think something doesn't work.
Without the constructive criticism the foundry can't work and obviously the standards will decline.

[natty dread]

The answer is written in the guidelines

Well, with all respect nobodies, I was asking which standards did MrBenn perceive to be (in threat of) declining, so I'm not sure you're qualified to give that answer unless you have a psychic connection with MrBenn ...

It could be MrBenn was refering to "standards" in some other sense, not the official "standards" which are controlled by the foundry staff.

[thenobodies80]

Oh, sorry I misunderstood what you were referring to.
I thought that saying "here" you were talking about CC, so I gave you the official answer. And no, MrBenn is a good friend, but I have no psychic connections with him.

[DiM]

now that the cow map is back on its fit i think it's time to resurrect this thread too.

has the foundry become a place that produces cow maps? will we see all kinds of arbitrary/random/stupid maps come to life?
there are thousands of great cities and regions and all sorts of really cool and interesting places to map. we have tons of historical events that would make a damn nice map. do we really want to take the path towards cow maps? what's next? pigs? turkey? vomit?

the cow map has obvious support from the kort clan and frankly i can't blame them, the persons to blame are those that don't like the map but chose to ignore it instead of expressing their opinion and the foundry leaders that lost their "balls" and are too afraid to step in and draw the line.

[thenobodies80]

I did it DiM, you saw the result, I was hit by a flurry of insults for being a "dictator".

[DiM]

I did it DiM, you saw the result, I was hit by a flurry of insults for being a "dictator".

so? those that do not like how the foundry is run can either:
1. accept it
2. suck it up and leave
3. petition lack to change the Foreman and the CAs

[natty dread]

I think there's a fine balance between "being a dictator" and "upholding the standards", which the CA:s need to be careful with.

On one hand, the CA:s shouldn't be afraid to tell a mapmaker when the quality of the map is not sufficient.

On the other hand, the CA:s shouldn't let their personal opinions affect their judgement too much, and if there's generally lots of support for a map, then the CA:s shouldn't be holding it back purely because it's not to their personal tastes.

It's a fine line to walk on sometimes, and there's no easy answers. But one thing we should all consider is, why are we making maps? Is it for the enjoyment of the public, or is it for some other purpose? I think, the primary purpose of any map is to be fun to play, after all that's what people come to this site for: to have fun playing games on maps. If the public wants to have a few "silly" maps, if they find them fun, then should we deny it from them because some us feel they go against some arbitrary artistic standards we have set for ourselves?

I mean, here's the problem with Dim's argument: who gets to decide what is "a stupid idea", who gets to define what a CC map should be? What some see as stupid, others see as brilliant. I think there are several stupid maps already on CC - Crossword, for one. If we can have a map of a crossword puzzle, why not a cow? Where does the line go, and who gets to decide where it's drawn?

Then there's the slippery slope argument, that if we allow this map, then doom & apocalypse will come, cats and dogs living together, etc... I don't buy that either. Like I said, there have been stupid maps made on CC before, like Crossword. However, the opinion that Crossword is a stupid map is a personal one - some people like it a lot, it's not one of the most popular maps, but it does have a niche following. Crossword was made years ago, and yet CC wasn't flooded with nothing but stupid puzzle maps afterwards.


So anyway... long story short: yes, standards should be upheld, but we should also keep in mind the purpose why we make these maps. I think, sometimes we lose ourselves so deep to the art of mapmaking, that we forget why it is we make them. That is, to give people something fun to play on.

[DiM]

just answer this question truthfully:

would you agree to the making of vomit map? (assuming it has support, gfx are up to standard and the gameplay is sound)


how about my ideas for Sperm Invasion and Poo-Fighters? i can get nice graphics, the gameplay is no problem and i'm pretty sure i can find support.
would that be ok?

back in the old days one of my first attempts at a map was shut down not because it had poor gameplay or even because of the graphics. it was shut down simply because the theme was not that great. have we really sunk this low to completely ignore the theme of a map? perhaps i should revive that old map of mine?

i for one would feel deeply disappointed if a map like the cow one would push through the foundry and frankly it would make me lose any sort of motivation to trying to spice up my maps and delivering something new and exciting each time? why would i bother to do that when i can simply do an animal/plant/object?
why bother setting a theme, creating an atmosphere, developing the gameplay and graphics that complement the established theme? just split up some generic animal/plant/object into terits and you're done.