Knights & Warlocks - V15 - page 1&12

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:45 pm

Gotcha! Thanks!

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby natty dread on Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:33 am

The roads could stand to stand out better from the background.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:22 am

DiM wrote:ok, i'll add just the losing condition.

I think I'm just in favor of a losing condition, and no winning condition, if you are adding conditions at all. I think the map is unique enough in theme and graphics you don't need to add too many additional gameplay elements to it.


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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby lostatlimbo on Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:47 pm

You've got some very nice textures in this map.

Judging by your losing condition, I presume that each player starts off with a Knight or a Warlock?

I am also assuming that all Ports connect (the legend doesn't mention this, but it must be so). It seems that it would be very easy to take out someone's Knight or Warlock on the first or second turn with good dice, which forces the losing condition. Am I reading this correctly? Perhaps the ports start at a higher neutral? But then it would make some of the Outlaws inaccessible/unusable.

I think it would really help to see some neutrals on the map at this stage, to help with understanding the gameplay nuances.

In what context does "connected to" refer in regards to the Farm/Mine/Lumber bonuses? Is it how many are chained together? How many are in the same colored region? Does the Farm/Mine/Lumber village itself count? (for example, I have Lo, Rinat, and Didy. Do I get +2 or +3 bonus?).

With such a harsh penalty on the Assassins/Clerics the Flying Monkeys & Griffins seem almost useless. No one will want to keep their troops on an Assassin/Cleric village, so bombarding them will be unnecessary. With a negative 2 bonus, I would want my opponent to keep their Assassin/Cleric. Perhaps you could give those another target? Such as Capitals or Nobles?

Whatever bombardment change you end up with, I think it would help a bit to have the icons laid out in a way that represents this better. For example, first row, Griffin > Assassin > Knight and a note saying arrows bombard. This would A) give you more room to explain some things and B) simplify the learning curve a little. Its easier for some to see it visually rather than read and reference relations separately.

Lastly, have you considered using Dragons instead of Flying Monkeys?

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:45 am

lostatlimbo wrote:You've got some very nice textures in this map.


thanks.

lostatlimbo wrote:Judging by your losing condition, I presume that each player starts off with a Knight or a Warlock?

I am also assuming that all Ports connect (the legend doesn't mention this, but it must be so). It seems that it would be very easy to take out someone's Knight or Warlock on the first or second turn with good dice, which forces the losing condition. Am I reading this correctly? Perhaps the ports start at a higher neutral? But then it would make some of the Outlaws inaccessible/unusable.


the losing condition wasn't set in stone but after some more consideration i have decided to add it, coupled with a few changes to make early eliminations impossible/very hard.

basically the knights/warlocks will be able to one-way attack surrounding terits and they will only be attacked via the bombardments from assassins/clerics.

lostatlimbo wrote:I think it would really help to see some neutrals on the map at this stage, to help with understanding the gameplay nuances.


in an earlier version i had the starting positions as well as the neutrals but i forgot to add them for the latest one. i'll make some changes and post a new version asap which will include neutrals.

lostatlimbo wrote:In what context does "connected to" refer in regards to the Farm/Mine/Lumber bonuses? Is it how many are chained together? How many are in the same colored region? Does the Farm/Mine/Lumber village itself count? (for example, I have Lo, Rinat, and Didy. Do I get +2 or +3 bonus?).


lo + rinat + didy will give you +2 because you have 2 villages connected to the farm. if you capture nec and tulangeo you'll get a further +2 for a total of +4. in somebody comes and takes didy, you'll not only lose the +1 for didy but also the +2 for nec and tulangeo because right now they're no longer connected to the farm in lo. however you can quickly take chu which is connected to tulangeo (and nec) and since it is a port it's also connected to rinat and now you're back to having +4.


lostatlimbo wrote:With such a harsh penalty on the Assassins/Clerics the Flying Monkeys & Griffins seem almost useless. No one will want to keep their troops on an Assassin/Cleric village, so bombarding them will be unnecessary. With a negative 2 bonus, I would want my opponent to keep their Assassin/Cleric. Perhaps you could give those another target? Such as Capitals or Nobles?


they're not useless in the context of being able to eliminate the enemy. see above.

lostatlimbo wrote:Whatever bombardment change you end up with, I think it would help a bit to have the icons laid out in a way that represents this better. For example, first row, Griffin > Assassin > Knight and a note saying arrows bombard. This would A) give you more room to explain some things and B) simplify the learning curve a little. Its easier for some to see it visually rather than read and reference relations separately.


i will try and implement this.

lostatlimbo wrote:Lastly, have you considered using Dragons instead of Flying Monkeys?


the flying monkeys are a special request so i shall keep them.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:50 am

V8:
*made the paths more visible
*added 1 way arrows
*changed the legend.

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [04.Dec.11] - V8 - page 1&4

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:06 pm

Sorry for the delay, I will take a look again at this this evening.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [04.Dec.11] - V8 - page 1&4

Postby swimmerdude99 on Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:17 am

Looks epic.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:17 am

The legend looks much clearer now.

DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:In what context does "connected to" refer in regards to the Farm/Mine/Lumber bonuses? Is it how many are chained together? How many are in the same colored region? Does the Farm/Mine/Lumber village itself count? (for example, I have Lo, Rinat, and Didy. Do I get +2 or +3 bonus?).


lo + rinat + didy will give you +2 because you have 2 villages connected to the farm. if you capture nec and tulangeo you'll get a further +2 for a total of +4. in somebody comes and takes didy, you'll not only lose the +1 for didy but also the +2 for nec and tulangeo because right now they're no longer connected to the farm in lo. however you can quickly take chu which is connected to tulangeo (and nec) and since it is a port it's also connected to rinat and now you're back to having +4.


Ah, that's pretty cool. I like the gameplay implications of this.

I also see why you have Sully on this - that seems like an XML cluster only he could sift through. :)

I assume the extent of the "connected to" is within the same colored region?

DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:With such a harsh penalty on the Assassins/Clerics the Flying Monkeys & Griffins seem almost useless. No one will want to keep their troops on an Assassin/Cleric village, so bombarding them will be unnecessary. With a negative 2 bonus, I would want my opponent to keep their Assassin/Cleric. Perhaps you could give those another target? Such as Capitals or Nobles?


they're not useless in the context of being able to eliminate the enemy. see above.


Hmmm... perhaps there's an angle I'm missing. I can see some advantage in team play (bombarding your teammate's last troop to avoid the -2 penalty), but beyond that they seem similar to a killer neutral. The penalty of -2 troops and a decay of 5 makes it undesirable to leave any troops there. If my Knight/Warlock is the target, I'm deploying defensively and letting my opponent take a significant hit.

In All Your Bases, I don't assault the 10 neutral on Tech Level 3 unless I'm pretty sure I can finish with the win. I would think the same thing for Clerics/Assassins. I'm building up a good force and cashing in a set before I take a Cleric territory and if I fail to eliminate my opponent's Warlock, bombarding what's left of my Cleric troops would only help me by negating that -2.

I do like the back and forth of the bombardments, but I don't think I'd use the Griffkeys often.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby DiM on Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:15 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:The legend looks much clearer now.

DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:In what context does "connected to" refer in regards to the Farm/Mine/Lumber bonuses? Is it how many are chained together? How many are in the same colored region? Does the Farm/Mine/Lumber village itself count? (for example, I have Lo, Rinat, and Didy. Do I get +2 or +3 bonus?).


lo + rinat + didy will give you +2 because you have 2 villages connected to the farm. if you capture nec and tulangeo you'll get a further +2 for a total of +4. in somebody comes and takes didy, you'll not only lose the +1 for didy but also the +2 for nec and tulangeo because right now they're no longer connected to the farm in lo. however you can quickly take chu which is connected to tulangeo (and nec) and since it is a port it's also connected to rinat and now you're back to having +4.


Ah, that's pretty cool. I like the gameplay implications of this.

I also see why you have Sully on this - that seems like an XML cluster only he could sift through. :)

I assume the extent of the "connected to" is within the same colored region?


i'd love if there were no boundaries to the "connections" but i'm not sure how big and complicated the xml might turn out so i'll have to discuss this with sully.

lostatlimbo wrote:
DiM wrote:
lostatlimbo wrote:With such a harsh penalty on the Assassins/Clerics the Flying Monkeys & Griffins seem almost useless. No one will want to keep their troops on an Assassin/Cleric village, so bombarding them will be unnecessary. With a negative 2 bonus, I would want my opponent to keep their Assassin/Cleric. Perhaps you could give those another target? Such as Capitals or Nobles?


they're not useless in the context of being able to eliminate the enemy. see above.


Hmmm... perhaps there's an angle I'm missing. I can see some advantage in team play (bombarding your teammate's last troop to avoid the -2 penalty), but beyond that they seem similar to a killer neutral. The penalty of -2 troops and a decay of 5 makes it undesirable to leave any troops there. If my Knight/Warlock is the target, I'm deploying defensively and letting my opponent take a significant hit.

In All Your Bases, I don't assault the 10 neutral on Tech Level 3 unless I'm pretty sure I can finish with the win. I would think the same thing for Clerics/Assassins. I'm building up a good force and cashing in a set before I take a Cleric territory and if I fail to eliminate my opponent's Warlock, bombarding what's left of my Cleric troops would only help me by negating that -2.

I do like the back and forth of the bombardments, but I don't think I'd use the Griffkeys often.


i thought of making it like this to avoid rushes and to make people think twice before going for an elimination as failure in achieving it could cost them dearly. obviously the values are not set in stone so if others think they need changing then i'm not opposed. some form of closed-circuit pre-beta testing would really come in handy :roll:
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [04.Dec.11] - V8 - page 1&4

Postby DiM on Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:16 pm

swimmerdude99 wrote:Looks epic.



hopefully it will also play epic :)
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:53 pm

DiM wrote:i thought of making it like this to avoid rushes and to make people think twice before going for an elimination as failure in achieving it could cost them dearly. obviously the values are not set in stone so if others think they need changing then i'm not opposed. some form of closed-circuit pre-beta testing would really come in handy :roll:


I like the Clerics/Assassins as you have them. I think the penalty is appropriate. Its the Griffins/Monkeys I don't get, which is why I was suggesting other bombardments targets.

What about Capitals? Most of them are key connectors to the bonuses and would be a good target to bust up a large connection.

Alternately, maybe you could have a penalty offset to the Clerics/Assassins. Such as...
  • Hold Cleric: -2 bonus and decay 5
  • Hold Cleric and Griffin: +2 bonus and +3 autodeploy on Cleric
That way, there are still scenarios in the game were it is advantageous for the Monkey to bombard the Cleric, but it still prevents an early rush.

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [24.Nov.11] - V7 - page 1&3

Postby Victor Sullivan on Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:58 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:
DiM wrote:i thought of making it like this to avoid rushes and to make people think twice before going for an elimination as failure in achieving it could cost them dearly. obviously the values are not set in stone so if others think they need changing then i'm not opposed. some form of closed-circuit pre-beta testing would really come in handy :roll:


I like the Clerics/Assassins as you have them. I think the penalty is appropriate. Its the Griffins/Monkeys I don't get, which is why I was suggesting other bombardments targets.

What about Capitals? Most of them are key connectors to the bonuses and would be a good target to bust up a large connection.

Alternately, maybe you could have a penalty offset to the Clerics/Assassins. Such as...
  • Hold Cleric: -2 bonus and decay 5
  • Hold Cleric and Griffin: +2 bonus and +3 autodeploy on Cleric
That way, there are still scenarios in the game were it is advantageous for the Monkey to bombard the Cleric, but it still prevents an early rush.

$.02

It sounds like you're suggesting a conditional auto-deploy (with the change in the Cleric's auto-deploy), which isn't possible with the current XML, I'm afraid.

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Re: Knights & Warlocks [04.Dec.11] - V8 - page 1&4

Postby gimil on Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:23 pm

I haven't given this a full once over...but from a graphical perspective I think that the blue, purple (and to a lesser extent red) terr names aren't working. Those colours are to dark/saturated and absorb the glow/stroke The other terr names look good because they are light colours with a contrasting dark outer border. I suggest that the offending colour are either changed...or their tones adjusted so that they do not adsorb that contrasting stroke.

I have a bit I would like to say about the title area in general...but I don't have time at this moment.
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Re: Knights & Warlocks [04.Dec.11] - V8 - page 1&4

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:48 pm

gimil wrote:I haven't given this a full once over...but from a graphical perspective I think that the blue, purple (and to a lesser extent red) terr names aren't working. Those colours are to dark/saturated and absorb the glow/stroke The other terr names look good because they are light colours with a contrasting dark outer border. I suggest that the offending colour are either changed...or their tones adjusted so that they do not adsorb that contrasting stroke.

I have a bit I would like to say about the title area in general...but I don't have time at this moment.

The darker/strong colors are indeed on difficult side of readability.


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