[Abandoned] - World 3.0

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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby DiM on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:39 pm

IcePack wrote:It's still a world map, you've added / changed territories and routes and changing bonus bcuz new country layouts etc.


do you even realize how stupid this sounds? it's like saying why do we have a usa map when we already have a map of portugal? it's just added/changed territories and routes and changing bonus because of new country layouts. but other than that it's still a country map, right?

so basically if i change the whole layout, and the terits, and the attack routes and the bonuses. i a word if i change EVERYTHING, for you it's the same map just because it is a world map. brilliant.

btw with that logic i'm actually surprised you're not protesting to ALL the maps being made.

world 2.1 is a bigger version of classic with different terits, attack routes, bonuses. by your logic it should never have been made, right?

usa appears in a lot of maps. and in many of them even the terit layout is similar. who's are the idiots that allowed this?

europe has several maps too. it's ludicrous.

the maps in the age of realms trilogy have roughly the same layout. who cares if the gameplay is completely different, they're stupid.

egypt has 4 maps. outrageous. who wants 4 maps of the same country?

rail maps? don't even get me started. one is enough, recycling that idea is horrendous.

and most of the other maps are also variations on the classical recipe of a region map. pff we should scrap them all.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby IcePack on Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:04 pm

Again I don't think we r ever going to agree. You don't see what I'm trying to say at all.
Enjoy making more maps with no new feedbackfrom me, I'm out! This is silly and a waste of my time. My comments aren't clear to you apparently and your just getting defensive. Nothing productive is occurring here.

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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:52 pm

Ok, I think I see what is happening here.

- Icepack: you're not actually giving any specific suggestions to the map, you're just saying you don't want this map to be made, that you don't like it. Fair enough, that's your opinion, but why do you have to argue about it? What exactly do you want the mapmaker to say? "Fine, I'll stop making this map"? That'd be kinda stupid. No mapmaker is going to abandon a project based on one person's dislike.

- DiM: I don't think you should be arguing with him either. Although he's not giving constructive feedback, he is stating his dislike of a map idea, and that should also be allowed. Nothing to worry about. If dozens of more people come in and tell you they hate the map, or if no one comes to give positive feedback at all, then you have cause to concern... but if one or two people say they hate it, you can just be like "fine, thanks for your opinion" and continue, there's no need to make an argument out of it.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:14 pm

DiM wrote:
natty_dread wrote:I just think having the territories mostly evenly sized makes for a more immersive gaming experience. With a map that dogmatically adheres to the "1 country, 1 territory" idea, like Europa, you don't get the feeling of being in a massive war, with troops moving accross the board... it feels more like just crunching numbers in some kind of statistics job.

But again, this is just my personal opinion, and I'm sure you'll find people who are thrilled to have a geographically accurate world map to play.


i don't see how moving troops from western usa to eastern usa is immersive but moving them from usa to mexico is crunching numbers in a statistics job. it's the same thing. you just move troops from one terit to another regardless of how it's called.
i don't care if it says usa, paris, europe or even terit 1.
it's like saying feudal is not a good map because the terits have number names.


Well like I said, it's my personal opinion, you're free to disagree with it. I'm not stating this as absolute truth.

But I think the immersiveness comes from the idea of having a proper sense of scale. You have big countries and small countries on a map, and when the big country is divided to several territories, you can move troops inside the country, not just between countries... and that gives it a sense of realism - you can't just take a huge land mass in a single step when it happens to be a single country.

Even on Feudal: yes, you have numbered territories, but the territories are all roughly the same size. You have a sense of scale, a sense of realism, in that each step you take gets you a roughly similar sized piece of land to your realm. You can imagine how your troops are divided over that huge battlefield, with this area having that many troops, that area next to it having a little more, and the front lines having the most... that's where the immersion comes from, that's a large part of the fun in a map in my opinion.

Then again, I bet there are others who don't care about the immersion at all, who don't in fact see how anyone could speak of "immersion" in an online board game... Or they don't care about what the theme of the map is, and only care about the gameplay and how many points they can rack up on it.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby IcePack on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:20 pm

natty_dread wrote:Ok, I think I see what is happening here.

- Icepack: you're not actually giving any specific suggestions to the map, you're just saying you don't want this map to be made, that you don't like it. Fair enough, that's your opinion, but why do you have to argue about it? What exactly do you want the mapmaker to say? "Fine, I'll stop making this map"? That'd be kinda stupid. No mapmaker is going to abandon a project based on one person's dislike.

- DiM: I don't think you should be arguing with him either. Although he's not giving constructive feedback, he is stating his dislike of a map idea, and that should also be allowed. Nothing to worry about. If dozens of more people come in and tell you they hate the map, or if no one comes to give positive feedback at all, then you have cause to concern... but if one or two people say they hate it, you can just be like "fine, thanks for your opinion" and continue, there's no need to make an argument out of it.


I'll try to give an example since I haven't been clear? I'm not just saying "I don't like it" a few posts back I said make something unique / different (though ur right I have no specific change suggestions). But he didn't want to talk he just argue that it's diff already etc

My point - USA does have a map, and was redone using "fractured america" same area but totally diff maps and product.

France also has France 1789(?) which is diff due to time frame changes. In my opinion the world 2.1 is a full world map
and this is only slightly different. My suggestion (generic tho it may be) was to create something unique about / around the world map idea beyond adding / changing territory counts and bonus areas.

Hope that helps, but not sure it will.

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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:23 pm

There's no bonus areas on this map. Every territory gets an autodeploy.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby IcePack on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:28 pm

natty_dread wrote:There's no bonus areas on this map. Every territory gets an autodeploy.


I know but in my mind that's not a change in map just a change in set ups etc. Like if you or I were to take classic map and make it auto deploy and add a few extra territories, should that map get approved too?

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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby DiM on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:33 pm

IcePack wrote:I'm not just saying "I don't like it" a few posts back I said make something unique / different (though ur right I have no specific change suggestions). But he didn't want to talk he just argue that it's diff already etc


but it IS different.

world 2.1 has big countries split into smaller regions, world 3.0 doesn't
world 2.1 has continent bonuses, world 3.0 doesn't
world 2.1 has a bonus for number of terits held, world 3.0 doesn't
the maps have a different number of terits
there are totally different connections
world 2.1 has no autodeploy
the strategies will be completely different. (for example if you manage to hold the usa and canada in world 2.1 you get a nice bonus of 7 plus whatever you get for the number of terits you own. in world 3.0 if you hold usa and canada you get just a +2.


again, aside from the fact that they are both world maps please show me one thing they have in common from a gameplay point of view.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:35 pm

IcePack wrote:
natty_dread wrote:There's no bonus areas on this map. Every territory gets an autodeploy.


I know but in my mind that's not a change in map just a change in set ups etc. Like if you or I were to take classic map and make it auto deploy and add a few extra territories, should that map get approved too?


Possibly. It's an entirely different gameplay, I'm not necessarily saying if it's a good or bad one, but you can't argue it isn't different.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby IcePack on Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:56 pm

natty_dread wrote:
IcePack wrote:
natty_dread wrote:There's no bonus areas on this map. Every territory gets an autodeploy.


I know but in my mind that's not a change in map just a change in set ups etc. Like if you or I were to take classic map and make it auto deploy and add a few extra territories, should that map get approved too?


Possibly. It's an entirely different gameplay, I'm not necessarily saying if it's a good or bad one, but you can't argue it isn't different.


Ok - if adding a few territory and routes to classic and changing from bonus structure to autodeploy is enough to get a map thru, f*ck it I'll start making maps. It'll be pretty easy then and we can have two of everything all slightly modified with different bonus structures.

HOW FUN! If that really is all it takes, then I clearly have no argument here.

DiM - create away! I sgguest classic next, Hawaii, Cuba, Easter islands etc are easy add ons to create a wholly new map. :/

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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:26 pm

IcePack wrote:Ok - if adding a few territory and routes to classic and changing from bonus structure to autodeploy is enough to get a map thru


No, it isn't enough to get a map through. The map also needs to have support from the community, and a capable mapmaker who is able to bring it up to CC standards.

Look, no one is telling you you shouldn't come over to map threads and give your opinion/feedback. That's really commendable. But you can't get all butthurt if people disagree with you, or challenge your views, or ask you to defend your argument. Giving and receiving feedback is a two-way interaction, you can't just waltz in and say "hey, I have an opinion, everyone listen to me!" You have to be willing to honestly participate in the discussion with the mapmakers and the other commentators.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby IcePack on Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:32 pm

Sure, but him actively complaining "nobody gives feedback" and then bitch slapping somebody making some of their first foundry comments (whether we agree or disagree) is fine.

My point was getting across - that's fine but there are much BETTER ways to ask for clarification then how it got handled if you wish to elicit feedback. I'm fine with people disagreeing with me I said that awhile ago.

I guess my point was it wasn't changed enough. If you / he feels it is, wonderful. We disagree.

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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:01 pm

Well, I'm liking this idea, but I'm wondering how exactly you intend to fit numbers AND names on some of those places... Africa and SE Asia look especially problematic.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby Boler on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:20 pm

I would find distances confusing, for example, it is technically the same distance from Angola, through a tiny strip of Nambia, to Botswana, as it is from Poland, attacking Kalingrad, which is technically part of Russia, and then subsequently attacking from Russia to Alaska, which is technically part of the United States. So Poland to the United States is a massive distance in an extremely short route.

On an unrelated note, you must of been using an older map when creating this. Sudan has recently been divided into two new countries, Sudan, and South Sudan, officially. Check out Google Earth or Wikipedia if you want to see.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:30 pm

IcePack wrote:Sure, but him actively complaining "nobody gives feedback" and then bitch slapping somebody


Where exactly is the bitch slapping? Dim isn't always the most socially functional mapmaker, and neither am I for that matter, but I don't see that there has been any overly rude or mean comments in this thread.

Like I said: feedback, like any other communication, is a two-way street. You only get from it as much as you give to it.

Boler wrote:I would find distances confusing, for example, it is technically the same distance from Angola, through a tiny strip of Nambia, to Botswana, as it is from Poland, attacking Kalingrad, which is technically part of Russia, and then subsequently attacking from Russia to Alaska, which is technically part of the United States. So Poland to the United States is a massive distance in an extremely short route.


This is exactly what I was talking about... this is one reason why I think the idea of using "countries & countries only" as territories is flawed. But then again, others like it so...
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby IcePack on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:36 pm

Another observation: this map is pretty huge - supersize maps are already pretty rough while playing on my iphone.
I'm currently on a borrowed computer - and still doesn't fit the whole image on one screen. I assume / hope if this ever does move forward it will be sized differently?

Natty - again its a matter of opinion. One can reinforce he believes its different, where I think it isn't. Its like liberals and conservatives, they will never agree with one another no matter how much discussion takes place. I point back to my classic map example. If i add a few territories, change some colors, and make it all auto deploy its still basically classic.

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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby DiM on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:39 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Well, I'm liking this idea, but I'm wondering how exactly you intend to fit numbers AND names on some of those places... Africa and SE Asia look especially problematic.


i'm wondering the same actually :lol:
i guess i'll deal with each region as i go ahead and try my best to fit everything.

shorter names, zoom bubbles, lists, whatever. i'll see what fits and make sure it all works out.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby DiM on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:42 pm

Boler wrote:I would find distances confusing, for example, it is technically the same distance from Angola, through a tiny strip of Nambia, to Botswana, as it is from Poland, attacking Kalingrad, which is technically part of Russia, and then subsequently attacking from Russia to Alaska, which is technically part of the United States. So Poland to the United States is a massive distance in an extremely short route.


let's call this the flavour of each country being represented by a single terit :)

Boler wrote:On an unrelated note, you must of been using an older map when creating this. Sudan has recently been divided into two new countries, Sudan, and South Sudan, officially. Check out Google Earth or Wikipedia if you want to see.


i will correct this when i get to sudan. thanks for pointing it out.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby natty dread on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:44 pm

IcePack wrote:Another observation: this map is pretty huge - supersize maps are already pretty rough while playing on my iphone.


Well, you don't have to play on supersize maps. Besides, iphones suck. But that's just, like, my opinion...

IcePack wrote:Natty - again its a matter of opinion. One can reinforce he believes its different, where I think it isn't.


Well, what are you complaining about? If all you wanted was to express your opinion about this map, you've succeeded, your opinion has been heard. If there isn't anything more you want to contribute, or you don't think the difference in opinion can be resolved, maybe you should move on to comment on some other map thread where your feedback might be of more use?
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby IcePack on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:49 pm

natty_dread wrote:
IcePack wrote:Another observation: this map is pretty huge - supersize maps are already pretty rough while playing on my iphone.


Well, you don't have to play on supersize maps. Besides, iphones suck. But that's just, like, my opinion...

IcePack wrote:Natty - again its a matter of opinion. One can reinforce he believes its different, where I think it isn't.


Well, what are you complaining about? If all you wanted was to express your opinion about this map, you've succeeded, your opinion has been heard. If there isn't anything more you want to contribute, or you don't think the difference in opinion can be resolved, maybe you should move on to comment on some other map thread where your feedback might be of more use?


I will likely give feedback from viewpoint of an iphone cuz most dont seem to consider what it may or may not be like playing on a mobile device (regardless of iphone or not).

I'll get to other maps eventually, i have expressed my opinioin your right. I guess I'm addressing follow up comments / trying to clarify as the discussion progressed, then adding new ones.

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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby zimmah on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:56 pm

zoom bubbles™ :D
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby The Bison King on Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:37 am

the map is accurate as of today.


Err.... Check it bro, South Sudan:

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Hi, my name is the Bison King, and I am COMPLETELY aware of DaFont!
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby DiM on Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:31 am

The Bison King wrote:
the map is accurate as of today.


Err.... Check it bro, South Sudan:

Image


yeah i know. it was already pointed out :)
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby lostatlimbo on Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:52 am

I like most of your work, but I have to say I probably won't play this one for two main reasons:

1) Playable insets are turn off for me. I guess its just the disassociation of borders, but I generally avoid maps like that.
2) More importantly, it seems like the gameplay here will be 100% luck. No strategy involved. If there are no bonuses, success is tied 100% to how well you roll. Whoever gets hot dice to start the game gets the advantage and likely wins (unless spoils turn the tide, but again - luck).

That said, its certainly an ambitious project and I wish you luck on it.

If you are going to go with the no bonus gameplay, you might consider dropping the multi-color look. Might be an interesting map if it was a more realistic color/texture (sort of like BisonKid's thumbnail above).

$.02
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Re: World 3.0 [13.Dec.11] - V1 - p1

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:48 pm

I agree with lostatlimbo's analysis - this map is far too bland in gameplay. I say keep similar to World 2.1. If you're going to use the name, you should stick to the gameplay, too.

And your current draft doesn't do Africa and others justice - I mean, Greenland's just as big! Try something like the [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Hobo–Dyer_projection_SW.jpg]Hobo-Dyer[/url] or a modification of it.

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