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Re: New Zealand [23.12.11] V6 P3 - Gameplay discussion

Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:35 pm

new post as above
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Re: New Zealand [23.12.11] V6 P3 - Gameplay discussion

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:24 am

This is looking great, Cairnswk. A small graphic item first: the "Wellington" name bubble seems to be covered by an island off Picton, and this seems to be the only case I see where the name bubble isn't on top of a piece land when there is overlap (such as Doubtful Sound, Rodney, Invercargill, etc).

In terms of gameplay, this looks like a map I would enjoy. Lots of small bonuses with possibilities of expansion without increasing your border count too much. With the added Tiki idea, the small bonus amount also jumps...and can in some cases with expansion, make what was once a small bonus into a formidable deploy.

For instance, Nelson (+3) with limited expansion into neighboring regions (Westport, MV, Picton) you can gather a +6 for the same border count. Of course the starting neutrals of Tikis will make this sort of play a little ways into the game, but it looks pretty formidable still. Bay of Plenty and Gisborne also have some expansion possibilities, but more borders to contend with than Nelson. Northland and Auckland isn't too far off either, though you have 2 airports (and of different kinds) to worry about there.


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Re: New Zealand [23.12.11] V6 P3 - Gameplay discussion

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:34 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:This is looking great, Cairnswk. A small graphic item first: the "Wellington" name bubble seems to be covered by an island off Picton, and this seems to be the only case I see where the name bubble isn't on top of a piece land when there is overlap (such as Doubtful Sound, Rodney, Invercargill, etc).

Andy, i've removed that offending island (which will show in the next version)

In terms of gameplay, this looks like a map I would enjoy. Lots of small bonuses with possibilities of expansion without increasing your border count too much. With the added Tiki idea, the small bonus amount also jumps...and can in some cases with expansion, make what was once a small bonus into a formidable deploy.

For instance, Nelson (+3) with limited expansion into neighboring regions (Westport, MV, Picton) you can gather a +6 for the same border count. Of course the starting neutrals of Tikis will make this sort of play a little ways into the game, but it looks pretty formidable still. Bay of Plenty and Gisborne also have some expansion possibilities, but more borders to contend with than Nelson. Northland and Auckland isn't too far off either, though you have 2 airports (and of different kinds) to worry about there.
--Andy


In terms of gameplay, is there anyone else interested in making some comments...or any further comments before this is moved on?
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Re: New Zealand [23.12.11] V6 P3 - Gameplay discussion

Postby iancanton on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:46 am

at first, i wondered why there were two kinds of airport on the map. this seemed to serve no purpose. in fact, it still doesn't.

however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.

i also recommend merging the gisborne bonus with bay of plenty, since there are many tiny bonus zones already.

ian. :)
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Re: New Zealand [23.12.11] V6 P3 - Gameplay discussion

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:53 pm

iancanton wrote:i also recommend merging the gisborne bonus with bay of plenty, since there are many tiny bonus zones already.

ian. :)

ian, many NZer's would be mortified: Gisborne is not part of the Bay of Plenty, so i won't be changing it.


at first, i wondered why there were two kinds of airport on the map. this seemed to serve no purpose. in fact, it still doesn't.

however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.


ian, while i agree this is perhaps a good gameplay idea i am thinking it would complicate the gameplay for many and that is not where i want this map to be.

So let's so what others think!...if there is any feedback on this proposal.
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Re: New Zealand [28.12.11] V6 P4 - Airports strategy?

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:32 pm

Personally, I think the airports are good as they are, but I'll see about getting a couple of other CA's to take a look as well.
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Re: New Zealand [23.12.11] V6 P3 - Gameplay discussion

Postby Oneyed on Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:50 pm

iancanton wrote:however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.

ian. :)


this idea sounds good, but I also agree with cairnswk that it would complicated things.
maybe you should go with airports as they are now, but with the same numbers - 6 whites, 6 blacks (optional).
or add airports only to Tikis.
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Re: New Zealand [28.12.11] V6 P4 - Airports strategy?

Postby natty dread on Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:25 pm

I kinda like Ian's idea here. It doesn't really sound that complicated to me.
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Re: New Zealand [23.12.11] V6 P3 - Gameplay discussion

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:08 am

iancanton wrote:at first, i wondered why there were two kinds of airport on the map. this seemed to serve no purpose. in fact, it still doesn't.

however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.

Not a bad idea. Moving one of the Otago white airports to another larger city in the south might be a good idea if you go forward with this.


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Re: New Zealand [23.12.11] V6 P3 - Gameplay discussion

Postby iancanton on Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:18 pm

right now, the map is very open indeed and most of the bonuses are right next to each other because of the black airports, resulting in a gameplay diagram that is "short and fat" for both teams (assuming a team match). my thinking is that, if only the white airports can attack black ones, then the white airports will have some strategic value for anyone who controls them all for either attack or defence, since it forces opponents to attack by land. when this happens, everywhere is within easy reach for the team in control of the white airports, while new zealand becomes "long and thin", with bottlenecks, for the team that doesn't control the white airports.

cairnswk wrote:i am thinking it would complicate the gameplay for many

in the legend, it's actually very easy to explain with pictures, though more difficult with words.

airport attack routes --->

black plane ---> white plane
white plane ---> white plane or black plane

ian. :)
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Re: New Zealand [28.12.11] V6 P4 - Airports strategy?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:27 pm

isaiah40 wrote:Personally, I think the airports are good as they are, but I'll see about getting a couple of other CA's to take a look as well.

I agree, but let's see where this takes gameplay....

Oneyed wrote:
iancanton wrote:however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.

ian. :)


this idea sounds good, but I also agree with cairnswk that it would complicated things.
maybe you should go with airports as they are now, but with the same numbers - 6 whites, 6 blacks (optional).
or add airports only to Tikis.

Mmm Oneyed, thanks for commenting, but using the tikis other than for what they are now would really complicate things.
i could cope with 6 and 6, but there is now strong movement for the change to ian's idea.

natty_dread wrote:I kinda like Ian's idea here. It doesn't really sound that complicated to me.

OK, thanks for that natty.

AndyDufresne wrote:
iancanton wrote:at first, i wondered why there were two kinds of airport on the map. this seemed to serve no purpose. in fact, it still doesn't.

however, i notice that there are only 6 white airports and lots of black ones. since all of the white airports serve major cities, except for gisborne, this leads to an idea to let there be a practical difference between the airports. my proposal here is to let white airports attack all airports, while black airports can attack only white airports: white airports are airline hubs and u can fly to anywhere from these hubs, whereas black airports are regional airports from which u can fly only to a main hub before changing planes. this lets the cities of new zealand have at least one strategic function or role on this map rather than being indistinguishable from small towns and rural areas: everyone must pass through a city every time they use an airport.


Not a bad idea. Moving one of the Otago white airports to another larger city in the south might be a good idea if you go forward with this.
--Andy

Andy thanks for suggestion...but the regional airports are in those places for tourist and major city reasons. I really wouldn't want to change that.

iancanton wrote:right now, the map is very open indeed and most of the bonuses are right next to each other because of the black airports, resulting in a gameplay diagram that is "short and fat" for both teams (assuming a team match). my thinking is that, if only the white airports can attack black ones, then the white airports will have some strategic value for anyone who controls them all for either attack or defence, since it forces opponents to attack by land. when this happens, everywhere is within easy reach for the team in control of the white airports, while new zealand becomes "long and thin", with bottlenecks, for the team that doesn't control the white airports.

cairnswk wrote:i am thinking it would complicate the gameplay for many

in the legend, it's actually very easy to explain with pictures, though more difficult with words.

airport attack routes --->

black plane ---> white plane
white plane ---> white plane or black plane

ian. :)

OK, i see where you're coming from ian.

i like: black plane ----> white plance

but i think the other should only be white plane ----> white plane.

And to open it up even more, could we have?:
black plane ----> white plance or black plane
white plane ----> white plane

This would be more to my liking.
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Re: New Zealand [28.12.11] V6 P4 - Airports strategy?

Postby iancanton on Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:04 pm

cairnswk wrote:i like: black plane ----> white plance

but i think the other should only be white plane ----> white plane.

And to open it up even more, could we have?:
black plane ----> white plance or black plane
white plane ----> white plane

This would be more to my liking.

conceptually, it doesn't make so much sense that u can fly from a resort airport to any destination, while u can fly from a major airport only to another major airport and not to a resort. there's no hint on the map of any reason for this odd situation. however, although it's the opposite of what most people would expect, it can be made to work, if u really want it that way, by reversing the ratio of black planes to white planes, so that there are only 5 or 6 of the kind that can attack both colours.

assuming the current 6 white planes and many black planes, if we let black ---> both colours while white ---> white, then the fact that there are so many black planes means they do not have much strategic value because its impossible to block them all, therefore new zealand can never be "long and thin" for anyone (unless the result is no longer in doubt). there is then very little difference between this situation and "all airports attack each other", where most bonus zones on north island are adjacent to most on south island and to each other, so that new zealand loses its topological shape and the connections diagram could be for almost anywhere.

for most of the tiki, perhaps use 3 starting neutrals instead of 4. gisborne and hawera need to have one extra neutral troop because their bonuses are easier.

ian. :)
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Re: New Zealand [28.12.11] V6 P4 - Airports strategy?

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:17 pm

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:i like: black plane ----> white plance

but i think the other should only be white plane ----> white plane.

And to open it up even more, could we have?:
black plane ----> white plance or black plane
white plane ----> white plane

This would be more to my liking.

conceptually, it doesn't make so much sense that u can fly from a resort airport to any destination, while u can fly from a major airport only to another major airport and not to a resort. there's no hint on the map of any reason for this odd situation. however, although it's the opposite of what most people would expect, it can be made to work, if u really want it that way, by reversing the ratio of black planes to white planes, so that there are only 5 or 6 of the kind that can attack both colours.

assuming the current 6 white planes and many black planes, if we let black ---> both colours while white ---> white, then the fact that there are so many black planes means they do not have much strategic value because its impossible to block them all, therefore new zealand can never be "long and thin" for anyone (unless the result is no longer in doubt). there is then very little difference between this situation and "all airports attack each other", where most bonus zones on north island are adjacent to most on south island and to each other, so that new zealand loses its topological shape and the connections diagram could be for almost anywhere.

for most of the tiki, perhaps use 3 starting neutrals instead of 4. gisborne and hawera need to have one extra neutral troop because their bonuses are easier.

ian. :)


Perhaps the following will clarify my idea for you.

White planes.
Air New Zealand National - Domestic Services
Air New Zealand National operates full service daily jet services to 5 Domestic destinations - Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Queenstown and Dunedin.

Black Planes
Air New Zealand Link - Domestic Services
Air New Zealand Link operates full service air services to 23 regional destinations within New Zealand including Auckland, Kerikeri, Whangarei, Hamilton, Tauranga, Whakatane, Rotorua, New Plymouth, Wanganui, Taupo, Gisborne, Napier, Hastings, Palmerston North, Wellington, Blenheim, Christchurch, Oamaru, Invercargill, Nelson, Hokitika, Westport, Dunedin and Queenstown with daily schedule services.

IN this real life situation:
white plane ----> white plane
black plane ----> white plance or black plane

If this creates a situation where the map is too open, then we could restrict the black planes to a north and south divide.
This would then only allow the white planes to assault each other between each island, while the black planes can assault any white or black on each island.

Does this make better sense?
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Re: New Zealand [28.12.11] V6 P4 - Airports strategy?

Postby iancanton on Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:57 am

cairnswk wrote:Air New Zealand Link operates full service air services to 23 regional destinations within New Zealand including Auckland, Kerikeri, Whangarei, Hamilton, Tauranga, Whakatane, Rotorua, New Plymouth, Wanganui, Taupo, Gisborne, Napier, Hastings, Palmerston North, Wellington, Blenheim, Christchurch, Oamaru, Invercargill, Nelson, Hokitika, Westport, Dunedin and Queenstown with daily schedule services.

cairnswk wrote:If this creates a situation where the map is too open, then we could restrict the black planes to a north and south divide.
This would then only allow the white planes to assault each other between each island, while the black planes can assault any white or black on each island.

both black and white aiports are in the 23 listed. it makes complete sense if all planes assault all black and white within each island, while the only inter-island air assaults are between white airports.

ian. :)
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Re: New Zealand [28.12.11] V6 P4 - Airports strategy?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:16 am

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