Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Flapcake on Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:46 pm

why can there not be several special event maps? like 5-10 Christmas maps, etc. and then make a Christmas turnament with surprise gifts for the one who wins, loses or otherwise participate, you can create many different events with a surprise in. like "find 5 errors", etc.
Many different special event maps would also get several different map makers on the track.
The idea of ​​a "closed user group" is basically okay too, it should just be that its only those who have the interest, know that you must aplly to this group will sort the unserious / uninterested away automatic. fill out a form for why you wanna join this group. it might also be to discriminatory ?

Crismas and easter are christians holydays, but all ohter relegions have holydays aswell, as I see it there could be work for all the mapmakers in the foundry 8-)
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:56 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:I see nothing wrong with the holocaust apart from the fact that millions of jews were brutally murdered.

WTF natty. :o :shock:


Ok, how about this one:

I see nothing wrong with censorship apart from the fact that it violates free speech.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:15 pm

natty_dread wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:another competition that turns out to be a popularity contest?


I don't think any competition has turned out to be "a popularity contest". Especially when they are anonymous, maybe some people vote their friends or against their enemies, but I'm pretty sure the majority of people vote the map they actually find the best. People have different tastes.


you're naive to think competitions are anonymous and results aren't fixed. :roll:
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:20 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
that works if the map made behind the scenes is done at at least a decent standard, but what happens if the map looks like the christmas one?

Then it gets scrapped and remade.


That's stupid. Why not do it properly in the first place?

It is not a matter of doing it right in the first place, it is a matter of doing it right.


actually not in this case.

i don't know who made the "special" maps we have now and i don't care but i can surely imagine whoever did them would have no incentive to redraw them completely once they're released to the public.

let's say i'm that demonart guy we see on some maps. lack asks for a christmas map and i deliver some kind of crap. it gets released, people play it for 2 weeks (while it's open) then it is closed for the rest of the year and people ask me to completely redraw it. "why would i do it? the map was live people played on it, now it's closed. end of story. you don't like it, make your own next year."
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:38 pm

St Patricks Day - Oaktown
Easter - Samuelc812
Colosseum - Samuelc812
2011 WC - Samualc812
2010 WC - MrBenn
Christmas - MrBenn

The incentive comes the same as the rest of us. Medal and premium. Why do any of us make these maps of ours. They are something we love to do. The problem lies with the back room coming up with an idea for a map and not following through with it till the end. All of the above maps could use some time in the foundry and you ask why would the map maker do that, for the simple reason you do it. Your love of doing it. If the site chooses a map maker that is not willing to follow through with the guidelines, then they should not be chosen.

We all agree that the current system is faulty to some degree. Instead of giving a medal and premium for 2 weeks work, the map maker must follow through till the end. It is the same with the contest winners. They get a pass to the ends of the foundry but still must pass the foundry process to get the medal and premium. The only thing I suggested that is slightly different to keep the surprise is to allow the map to get into play while it is being worked on. Istanbul will not get the medal and premium till it is out of beta. Why not have that for Christmas or any new map that comes along.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:40 pm

I don't think they received a premium....but I'm not sure I have to ask to lackattack....or MrBenn who is reading this thread ;)

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:57 pm

A small thing, natty you suggested a small usergroup to develope these maps. It is in this way now. All maps, with the exception of 1 or 2, were developed by a single mapmaker with the help of a small group of people, usually all CAs plus other few people involved for some reason with the project.
I understand your point in making a call and see who wants to take part, in the same time you should consider two aspects:

1. not everyone use the same software. You know is an hell to move things from PS and GIMP, yes there's a conversion tool, but effects get lost...usually. In few words lot of time wasted for nothing.
2. You're asking to not have the special maps production related with, let me say, an "elite" of people but using instead a usergroup....As said it's already in this way adn anyway that usergroup is just another "elitè". There's no compromise between a small group and a open public process. No trying to flame you, but it sounds "I'm angry because i'm not part of it". Seriously not a flame. O:)

If you want and if the people who has more power than me agree I'm open to make a call every time we are going to develope a map behind the scenes. Let me said that I see some flaws in that system. I like more the option draw the map, then have a public topic once it's released.
Premiums and medals can given only after that the mapamker change the map accordingly the people requests, if not he receives nothing and the map is binned.
It's simpler and it works 100%

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:09 pm

koontz1973 wrote:St Patricks Day - Oaktown
Easter - Samuelc812
Colosseum - Samuelc812
2011 WC - Samualc812
2010 WC - MrBenn
Christmas - MrBenn

The incentive comes the same as the rest of us. Medal and premium. Why do any of us make these maps of ours. They are something we love to do. The problem lies with the back room coming up with an idea for a map and not following through with it till the end. All of the above maps could use some time in the foundry and you ask why would the map maker do that, for the simple reason you do it. Your love of doing it. If the site chooses a map maker that is not willing to follow through with the guidelines, then they should not be chosen.

We all agree that the current system is faulty to some degree. Instead of giving a medal and premium for 2 weeks work, the map maker must follow through till the end. It is the same with the contest winners. They get a pass to the ends of the foundry but still must pass the foundry process to get the medal and premium. The only thing I suggested that is slightly different to keep the surprise is to allow the map to get into play while it is being worked on. Istanbul will not get the medal and premium till it is out of beta. Why not have that for Christmas or any new map that comes along.


except for colosseum (which is salvageable) all the others are good to be scratched and binned.
the medal and premium are nothing or close to nothing if all you want is your map to be out there then there's nothing to motivate you to follow up and improve that map especially if you're looking to approximately 6 months of foundry nagging and dozens of updates. the map is available to play for 2 weeks just as you made it. to rework it according to foundry specs just to get another 2 weeks next christmas is pointless. you'd be better off making a different secret christmas map each year :)
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:17 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:A small thing, natty you suggested a small usergroup to develope these maps. It is in this way now. All maps, with the exception of 1 or 2, were developed by a single mapmaker with the help of a small group of people, usually all CAs plus other few people involved for some reason with the project.


the difference between a close usergroup and what you have now is huge.
in a closed usergroup you could have 30 people with a lot of experience in mapmaking (map makers/CAs/foundry regulars) while in your small group of people you have what? 5 people? and out of those 5 how many are actually foundry regulars or experienced map makers? cause i'm betting some of them are just people from the entertainment team who rarely visit the foundry.

an with no offence to the people that worked on those maps but the results aren't even decent. maybe it was a really tight schedule, maybe the map maker had no experience, maybe the small group that was supposed to give feedback wasn't too inspired. whatever the reasons, the outcome is the one that really matters.
and i'm not talking about graphics alone. from a gameplay perspective those maps aren't really good either.

the best solution would be for such maps to be openly made in the foundry. the closest best would be a group consisting of map makers/CAs/foundry regulars. along with some other factors like decent deadlines, decent graphic artists, etc.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:22 pm

DiM wrote:you're naive to think competitions are anonymous and results aren't fixed. :roll:


How are they fixed? Someone manipulating the voting results, or what?

I don't want to get into a huge argument over this, but... Maybe everyone just doesn't like the same kind of maps you do. I mean, I don't agree with all the contest results either, there've been some contests where I've thought the best entry didn't win, but I still don't believe those are "fixed" in any way. Just that people have different tastes.

koontz1973 wrote:We all agree that the current system is faulty to some degree. Instead of giving a medal and premium for 2 weeks work, the map maker must follow through till the end. It is the same with the contest winners. They get a pass to the ends of the foundry but still must pass the foundry process to get the medal and premium.


Contest winners don't get a pass. They get moved straight to final forge (or to main foundry these days), but they still have to receive feedback and suggestions and make updates before the map goes live, as well as during the beta testing.

koontz1973 wrote:The only thing I suggested that is slightly different to keep the surprise is to allow the map to get into play while it is being worked on.


Thing is, that still doesn't address the issue. The maps would still get a free pass through the foundry process, there would be no feedback before the map goes live. And it still goes against the whole foundry process: the foundry guidelines state very clearly that beta-testing is not the place to test out ideas, that maps should be as close to finished as possible before beta... the beta phase is supposed to be only a final contingency, to find any flaws that may have been unanticipated by the foundry.

Also, the issue of choosing the mapmaker is still an issue. It's currently also done behind closed doors, someone who's in the "inner circle" gets to make the map. Ie. samuel or mr benn currently. Why aren't other mapmakers being offered the chance to create these maps? If we could get someone like Kabanellas or Tisha or Dim to make some of these seasonal maps, and get some of the foundry regulars to give feedback during the process, there'd probably be some amazing maps.

And it wouldn't even be that hard. All that has to be done is:

1) entertainment team/whatever entity it is that deciedes these things decides the need for a new seasonal map
2) they inform CA:s, who inform mapmakers who are the most active in the foundry of the opportunity
3) then, those interested submit drafts and
4) then maybe a panel of CA:s, some foundry regulars, mapmakers, admin & entertainment team etc. can decide which one gets done, or it can be put to a vote. Then, that same panel can offer feedback during the development, and once it's done the map goes live. At that point it can be treated the same as beta maps, it can have a thread in the foundry and receive feedback and updates can be made.

You also said there'd be a problem of people complaining they wouldn't get in this deciding panel, but if we just round up all the people who are active in the foundry on a regular basis and ask if they're interested, then all those who would even be interested in being in it would very likely be included.

Again, it's not as good as having the map made openly in the foundry, but if this "surprise" element must be maintained, then it's the best possible solution.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:36 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:A small thing, natty you suggested a small usergroup to develope these maps. It is in this way now. All maps, with the exception of 1 or 2, were developed by a single mapmaker with the help of a small group of people, usually all CAs plus other few people involved for some reason with the project.


That's not the same thing as what I suggest. Currently, only the people in the inner circle of the CA:s/Entertainment team get to make these maps or comment on them during development. The people who actually make most of the actual maps on this site don't get to participate in the process, and that's what's wrong. Think of all the great talent in the foundry that's not being utilized.

I understand your point in making a call and see who wants to take part, in the same time you should consider two aspects:

1. not everyone use the same software. You know is an hell to move things from PS and GIMP, yes there's a conversion tool, but effects get lost...usually. In few words lot of time wasted for nothing.


I'm not saying that several people have to take part in the creation of the map image either (unless some mapmakers want to team up, which is fine). I'm saying that the chance to make these maps should be offered to more mapmakers than just the inner circle, and the chance to give feedback to this process should also be offered to more people. Refer to my previous post on ideas how this could be accomplished.

2. You're asking to not have the special maps production related with, let me say, an "elite" of people but using instead a usergroup....As said it's already in this way adn anyway that usergroup is just another "elitè". There's no compromise between a small group and a open public process. No trying to flame you, but it sounds "I'm angry because i'm not part of it". Seriously not a flame. O:)


You may not be flaming me strictly speaking, but you're questioning my motives, being condescending and patronizing. You're trying to make this out like it's about my personal ego and thus dismiss the concerns I've brought up. I don't think it's very constructive to debate like that, but then, I don't have a blue name so what do I know...

The current "usergroup" that decides these things is not a part of the foundry. Maybe some CA:s are privy to it, but there are more to the foundry community than CA:s, which you should know very well. There are many mapmakers and foundry regulars whose input could be beneficial to the process of creating these maps.

If you want and if the people who has more power than me agree I'm open to make a call every time we are going to develope a map behind the scenes. Let me said that I see some flaws in that system. I like more the option draw the map, then have a public topic once it's released.
Premiums and medals can given only after that the mapamker change the map accordingly the people requests, if not he receives nothing and the map is binned.
It's simpler and it works 100%


I think the process of choosing the mapmaker should still be open to all the mapmakers in the foundry, not just those with coloured names or their pals. Again, refer to my previous post.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby MrBenn on Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:06 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:I don't think they received a premium....but I'm not sure I have to ask to lackattack.

I don't remember - I honestly couldn't tell you.

St Patricks was the first limited edition map and was in development for a couple of months. There is (or certainly was) a dedicated map development thread behind-the scenes where there was much discussion by most of the CC team members (all of Team CC, and not just the Foundry)

For the 2010 World Cup, I invited a number of people - perhaps 10-15? - from CC to help contribute, as well as the CA team to discuss gameplay, as well as comments on graphics etc. The map was in development for a couple of months.

The Christmas map was slightly more rushed; although work started on it in the middle of November and it was published in the middle of December (I think). We ran a public contest for the advent calendar images, and the original plan was to change these each year with an annual contest - although that has never happened. The gameplay was designed to make use of the losing condition in a distinctive way, and I had several conversations with the CAs about how to balance the victory condition on one side and the advent calendar on the other. For critics of the graphics who say it looks like it was drawn by a child, most of it actually was. If you look closely, you will see that the branches and star are handprints of one of my children, and the gifts were drawn in pencil crayon by a 4yr old and a 5yr old. I agree it could do with more work, and would be open for a revamp - or even for it to be superceded by a new Christmas map. I'm not precious about it ;-)

For the 2011 World Cup map, Sam took my PSD and adapted it. I don't know how long it took but I don't recall much discussion about it - certainly not as much as maps that had been developed by Foundry Staff. There may have been some discussion with the entertainment team, but I don't remember seeing much - although I was able to pass comment on it and contribute some additional background graphic.

The first I knew about the Easter map (bear in mind I was Foundry Foreman at the time) was a couple of days before the map was launched; it was developed by sam (and possibly the Entertainment team) without any input from the CAs.

Shortly after I stepped down as Foundry Foreman I read about the Colosseum Battle Royale Map. I remember some brief discussion about a BR-map concept but was not involved or aware of any map development; I don't know how much input nobodies had to that, so cannot comment further.

Over time, the number of collaborators to the special edition maps has diminished - I have real concerns about the lack of CA/Foundry Foreman involvement too. I'm not completely certain that this is an exclusive Foundry problem, although it has become one belonging to the Foundry alone.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:13 pm

MrBenn wrote:Over time, the number of collaborators to the special edition maps has diminished - I have real concerns about the lack of CA/Foundry Foreman involvement too.


That is concerning, and all the more reason to bring the development of those maps into the foundry, to apply the same standards to those maps as all the others.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Seamus76 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:53 pm

I like the idea of having the maps be open to people who have at least one map medal. This is an additional incentive, and benefit for having spent countless hours of hard work to get a map through the process and into play. This also keeps the secrecy element but at the same time includes the foundry, as well as talented map makers, in the process.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Flapcake on Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:55 pm

Seamus76 wrote:I like the idea of having the maps be open to people who have at least one map medal. This is an additional incentive, and benefit for having spent countless hours of hard work to get a map through the process and into play. This also keeps the secrecy element but at the same time includes the foundry, as well as talented map makers, in the process.


Just my words, I think this would be a fair way to go. But but but, (thers always a but) The foundry does have visitors that dont make maps, course to lack of skill/time/ohter reasons, but they do have a lot of sensible comments to the map making progress, for examble to mention one, Andy, they would then be kept out ?
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