Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:36 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:A small thing, natty you suggested a small usergroup to develope these maps. It is in this way now. All maps, with the exception of 1 or 2, were developed by a single mapmaker with the help of a small group of people, usually all CAs plus other few people involved for some reason with the project.


That's not the same thing as what I suggest. Currently, only the people in the inner circle of the CA:s/Entertainment team get to make these maps or comment on them during development. The people who actually make most of the actual maps on this site don't get to participate in the process, and that's what's wrong. Think of all the great talent in the foundry that's not being utilized.

I understand your point in making a call and see who wants to take part, in the same time you should consider two aspects:

1. not everyone use the same software. You know is an hell to move things from PS and GIMP, yes there's a conversion tool, but effects get lost...usually. In few words lot of time wasted for nothing.


I'm not saying that several people have to take part in the creation of the map image either (unless some mapmakers want to team up, which is fine). I'm saying that the chance to make these maps should be offered to more mapmakers than just the inner circle, and the chance to give feedback to this process should also be offered to more people. Refer to my previous post on ideas how this could be accomplished.

2. You're asking to not have the special maps production related with, let me say, an "elite" of people but using instead a usergroup....As said it's already in this way adn anyway that usergroup is just another "elitè". There's no compromise between a small group and a open public process. No trying to flame you, but it sounds "I'm angry because i'm not part of it". Seriously not a flame. O:)


You may not be flaming me strictly speaking, but you're questioning my motives, being condescending and patronizing. You're trying to make this out like it's about my personal ego and thus dismiss the concerns I've brought up. I don't think it's very constructive to debate like that, but then, I don't have a blue name so what do I know...

The current "usergroup" that decides these things is not a part of the foundry. Maybe some CA:s are privy to it, but there are more to the foundry community than CA:s, which you should know very well. There are many mapmakers and foundry regulars whose input could be beneficial to the process of creating these maps.

If you want and if the people who has more power than me agree I'm open to make a call every time we are going to develope a map behind the scenes. Let me said that I see some flaws in that system. I like more the option draw the map, then have a public topic once it's released.
Premiums and medals can given only after that the mapamker change the map accordingly the people requests, if not he receives nothing and the map is binned.
It's simpler and it works 100%


I think the process of choosing the mapmaker should still be open to all the mapmakers in the foundry, not just those with coloured names or their pals. Again, refer to my previous post.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby MrBenn on Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:06 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:I don't think they received a premium....but I'm not sure I have to ask to lackattack.

I don't remember - I honestly couldn't tell you.

St Patricks was the first limited edition map and was in development for a couple of months. There is (or certainly was) a dedicated map development thread behind-the scenes where there was much discussion by most of the CC team members (all of Team CC, and not just the Foundry)

For the 2010 World Cup, I invited a number of people - perhaps 10-15? - from CC to help contribute, as well as the CA team to discuss gameplay, as well as comments on graphics etc. The map was in development for a couple of months.

The Christmas map was slightly more rushed; although work started on it in the middle of November and it was published in the middle of December (I think). We ran a public contest for the advent calendar images, and the original plan was to change these each year with an annual contest - although that has never happened. The gameplay was designed to make use of the losing condition in a distinctive way, and I had several conversations with the CAs about how to balance the victory condition on one side and the advent calendar on the other. For critics of the graphics who say it looks like it was drawn by a child, most of it actually was. If you look closely, you will see that the branches and star are handprints of one of my children, and the gifts were drawn in pencil crayon by a 4yr old and a 5yr old. I agree it could do with more work, and would be open for a revamp - or even for it to be superceded by a new Christmas map. I'm not precious about it ;-)

For the 2011 World Cup map, Sam took my PSD and adapted it. I don't know how long it took but I don't recall much discussion about it - certainly not as much as maps that had been developed by Foundry Staff. There may have been some discussion with the entertainment team, but I don't remember seeing much - although I was able to pass comment on it and contribute some additional background graphic.

The first I knew about the Easter map (bear in mind I was Foundry Foreman at the time) was a couple of days before the map was launched; it was developed by sam (and possibly the Entertainment team) without any input from the CAs.

Shortly after I stepped down as Foundry Foreman I read about the Colosseum Battle Royale Map. I remember some brief discussion about a BR-map concept but was not involved or aware of any map development; I don't know how much input nobodies had to that, so cannot comment further.

Over time, the number of collaborators to the special edition maps has diminished - I have real concerns about the lack of CA/Foundry Foreman involvement too. I'm not completely certain that this is an exclusive Foundry problem, although it has become one belonging to the Foundry alone.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:13 pm

MrBenn wrote:Over time, the number of collaborators to the special edition maps has diminished - I have real concerns about the lack of CA/Foundry Foreman involvement too.


That is concerning, and all the more reason to bring the development of those maps into the foundry, to apply the same standards to those maps as all the others.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Seamus76 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:53 pm

I like the idea of having the maps be open to people who have at least one map medal. This is an additional incentive, and benefit for having spent countless hours of hard work to get a map through the process and into play. This also keeps the secrecy element but at the same time includes the foundry, as well as talented map makers, in the process.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Flapcake on Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:55 pm

Seamus76 wrote:I like the idea of having the maps be open to people who have at least one map medal. This is an additional incentive, and benefit for having spent countless hours of hard work to get a map through the process and into play. This also keeps the secrecy element but at the same time includes the foundry, as well as talented map makers, in the process.


Just my words, I think this would be a fair way to go. But but but, (thers always a but) The foundry does have visitors that dont make maps, course to lack of skill/time/ohter reasons, but they do have a lot of sensible comments to the map making progress, for examble to mention one, Andy, they would then be kept out ?
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:24 pm

Flapcake wrote:
Seamus76 wrote:I like the idea of having the maps be open to people who have at least one map medal. This is an additional incentive, and benefit for having spent countless hours of hard work to get a map through the process and into play. This also keeps the secrecy element but at the same time includes the foundry, as well as talented map makers, in the process.


Just my words, I think this would be a fair way to go. But but but, (thers always a but) The foundry does have visitors that dont make maps, course to lack of skill/time/ohter reasons, but they do have a lot of sensible comments to the map making progress, for examble to mention one, Andy, they would then be kept out ?


lol Andy is an admin. He has access to all forums. But yes I get what you mean and it is exactly the thing i was referring when I said there's no compromise between a closed system and a open one. You can make a closed system bigger, but it's still closed.

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:29 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:lol Andy is an admin. He has access to all forums. But yes I get what you mean and it is exactly the thing i was referring when I said there's no compromise between a closed system and a open one. You can make a closed system bigger, but it's still closed.


I think you're making it more difficult than it needs to be.

Of course, I'd like those maps to be made in the open, in the foundry, like all the other maps. However if this is not acceptable to the admin for "surprise" reasons ( :roll: ), then a closed system that would include all the people who regularly post in the foundry would be the second best solution. You could set a criteria of "at least 6 months of being an active poster/contributor in the foundry" or something like that.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Flapcake on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:31 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
Flapcake wrote:
Seamus76 wrote:I like the idea of having the maps be open to people who have at least one map medal. This is an additional incentive, and benefit for having spent countless hours of hard work to get a map through the process and into play. This also keeps the secrecy element but at the same time includes the foundry, as well as talented map makers, in the process.


Just my words, I think this would be a fair way to go. But but but, (thers always a but) The foundry does have visitors that dont make maps, course to lack of skill/time/ohter reasons, but they do have a lot of sensible comments to the map making progress, for examble to mention one, Andy, they would then be kept out ?


lol Andy is an admin. He has access to all forums. But yes I get what you mean and it is exactly the thing i was referring when I said there's no compromise between a closed system and a open one. You can make a closed system bigger, but it's still closed.


But not that closed, It would be your (admins) responsibility to let people in when they pay interest to map making an serius comments in the foundry.
well Andy do have good comments but he dont do maps, if he wasent a admin I think that some one like him (as a non map maker) would be granded acces to that kind of user group.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:38 pm

natty_dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:lol Andy is an admin. He has access to all forums. But yes I get what you mean and it is exactly the thing i was referring when I said there's no compromise between a closed system and a open one. You can make a closed system bigger, but it's still closed.


I think you're making it more difficult than it needs to be.

Of course, I'd like those maps to be made in the open, in the foundry, like all the other maps. However if this is not acceptable to the admin for "surprise" reasons ( :roll: ), then a closed system that would include all the people who regularly post in the foundry would be the second best solution. You could set a criteria of "at least 6 months of being an active poster/contributor in the foundry" or something like that.



I still think your system makes things more difficult and it applies the same system that has left you out of the behind the scenes maps. You're setting a criteria that makes you happy but that doesn't make happy the others. Who says you can decide who is in or out? just using your same criteria....

If i have to pick one good idea from what was posted here, the best one is the call, who wants to help can be added. Simple, quick and manageable.

Said that without knowing what the Entertainment group thinks we are discussing about nothing, because like MrBenn said, CAs and myself are not so involved with those seasonal maps. And as I said I'm against them, I just see them like a good yearly contest throwed away. For me a foundry contest shoudl be the only way we produce seasonal maps.

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:58 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:I still think your system makes things more difficult and it applies the same system that has left you out of the behind the scenes maps.


Again, this is not about me or me wanting to get involved in the making of seasonal maps, no matter what you want to imply.

I'd prefer the seasonal maps to be made openly in the foundry. But if that's not possible, then at least include the people in the foundry to the process.

The criteria I suggested was just one possibility. I'd be happy with no criteria at all, something like an open usergroup that anyone who stumbles in the foundry can join. Or an open contest in the foundry, that would work just as well.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:33 pm

I picked a terrible time to visit the family, lol. I'll catch up eventually, I'm sure...

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby lostatlimbo on Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:23 am

I don't know. When I see gimmick maps like the holiday ones, I generally just ignore them. I'm not offended or slighted that they exist.

I don't especially see a need for a full foundry process for any map that is only going to show up once a year. Oaktown has made some beautiful maps (Eastern Hemi, Route 66, etc) but he obviously phoned in St. Patty's Day. Why wouldn't he? Its a map a small handful will enjoy for about one week a year. There's no need to make that map exceptional.

They aren't real maps, they are simply marketing tools. Every business needs seasonal/event news to talk about. Stay on people's minds. Hell, I'm surprised there aren't more of these. They aren't any good to us super-fans, but to the casual person who pays for premium and plays sporadically, they serve a purpose. They probably get folks back on the site.

Can you say the same thing for some of the maps we spend months/years producing here? If someone posts on the Conquer Club Facebook or Twitter page that the Christmas map is back, I bet that gets a lot more traffic than an announcement about a new map of... Thyseneal? Ancient Korea? Portland?

Everyone posting here appreciates the amount of work and creativity that goes into a good map, but most folks don't. Most folks appreciate novelty and familiarity and they represent a much larger piece of Conquer Club's revenue stream.

This isn't particular to Conquer Club either. Does anyone really find Ke$ha to be a good musician? Anyone actually find Rob Schneider funny or Michael Bay to be a competent director? I bet we all know a dozen extremely talented people that no one will ever hear about. Quality rarely equals popularity.

So... I don't get the fuss. Let them make junky novelty maps when they want. Focus on the stuff you care about and ignore the rest.

Besides, if someone has a St. Patrick or Christmas map idea they want to develop into an amazing, permanent map, who is stopping them? Go post it in the draft room. If its solid, I'm sure it will make it through and replace the temporary crap we have now.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby lostatlimbo on Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:34 am

On a side note, if Conquer Club was smart, they would have Free maps and Premium maps. Give extra incentive for players to pay for premium.

Want to play on Classic, Asia, USA or Christmas? Knock yourself out, you can play on one of each for Free.

Want to play on All Your Bases, First Nations, or Baseball? Well, better pony up for Premium, because those maps took some elbow grease.

Not only would it increase their revenue in a much smarter way than Conquer Cup tournaments, but they could start paying the mapmakers that put the most effort into the foundry in more than virtual medals and premium extensions (which works out to... $.05/hour on average?)
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby gimil on Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:03 am

lostatlimbo wrote:On a side note, if Conquer Club was smart, they would have Free maps and Premium maps. Give extra incentive for players to pay for premium.

Want to play on Classic, Asia, USA or Christmas? Knock yourself out, you can play on one of each for Free.

Want to play on All Your Bases, First Nations, or Baseball? Well, better pony up for Premium, because those maps took some elbow grease.

Not only would it increase their revenue in a much smarter way than Conquer Cup tournaments, but they could start paying the mapmakers that put the most effort into the foundry in more than virtual medals and premium extensions (which works out to... $.05/hour on average?)


I think if my maps where only accessible through paid membership I would be expecting cold hard cash...not more premium. I don't want lack making direct profit from my hard work ;).
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:19 am

gimil wrote:I don't want lack making direct profit from my hard work ;).


He already does.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby gimil on Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:54 am

natty_dread wrote:
gimil wrote:I don't want lack making direct profit from my hard work ;).


He already does.


No he doesn't. Lack doesn't charge people for the privilege to play on my maps. They are already available to anyone who signs up to ConquerClub.com. Lack makes direct profit by charging people for the following privileges:

[*]Play UNLIMITED simultaneous games
[*]Play thrilling real-time SPEED games
[*]Create password-protected PRIVATE games (which Free members may join, too)
[*]Send game invitations to your friends to RESERVE their spots
[*]Have a GOLDEN rank icon display next to your name
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:27 pm

gimil wrote:No he doesn't. Lack doesn't charge people for the privilege to play on my maps. They are already available to anyone who signs up to ConquerClub.com. Lack makes direct profit by charging people for the following privileges:


Lack does make profit from the maps on this site though. The maps are part of what attracts paying customers to his site, so he is using them for profit.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:18 am

natty_dread wrote:
gimil wrote:No he doesn't. Lack doesn't charge people for the privilege to play on my maps. They are already available to anyone who signs up to ConquerClub.com. Lack makes direct profit by charging people for the following privileges:


Lack does make profit from the maps on this site though. The maps are part of what attracts paying customers to his site, so he is using them for profit.

So maps are the marketing tool he uses to get paying customers. You are both right. He may not be selling the maps for money but he does use them to entice players onto the site. Either way, he make money, we make maps. Both parties happy.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby zimmah on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:11 am

i think it makes perfect sense to involve the foundry regulars, and especially the veteran mapmakers in making new maps, even those special behind the scenes ones.

if you want us to respect your authority as foundry team, why don't you show some respect to the mapmakers first? instead, you undermine your own authority by just ignoring your own rules and ignoring the foundry veterans.

a closed usergroup allowing foundry veterans (people with at least 5 map-medals or exceptional contribution to the mapmaking scene, for example) would be great and much better then some dark cellars with only the elite chosen few.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:25 am

zimmah wrote:if you want us to respect your authority as foundry team, why don't you show some respect to the mapmakers first? instead, you undermine your own authority by just ignoring your own rules and ignoring the foundry veterans.


actually thenobodies80 and his CAs aren't at fault here. for some of those maps they weren't even invited to the "party" :lol:
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby zimmah on Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:57 am

DiM wrote:
zimmah wrote:if you want us to respect your authority as foundry team, why don't you show some respect to the mapmakers first? instead, you undermine your own authority by just ignoring your own rules and ignoring the foundry veterans.


actually thenobodies80 and his CAs aren't at fault here. for some of those maps they weren't even invited to the "party" :lol:


i'm not blaming anyone in person but the system as a whole.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:24 pm

In relation with this discussion, I want to let you know that all the maps developed behind the scenes in the past years now have a dedicated topic into the viewing gallery.
There you can report problems or leave comments on the map. :)
All future maps (if there will be) developed behind the scenes for special events will have a dedicated topic in future when released; for now I can't tell if those threads will be created into the viewing gallery directly or instead into the Final Forge, maybe labelled as Beta, honestly I need an official reply to give you the final say on it.
However, I am in favor of having them as Beta maps when released.

Hope this step, let me say in the right direction, is welcome.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:47 pm

Natty, we don't always see eye 2 eye, but your first post i totally agree with.
Every map should go through the Foundry process.
It simply levels the playing field.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:54 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Hope this step, let me say in the right direction, is welcome.


Yeah, it's a good step. Let's not stop walking though ;)
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby The Bison King on Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:58 pm

Sorry I'm coming in late to this conversation and it seems really silly to me. This whole argument seems to be based around the idea that map making is a right and not a privilege. If the people who dedicate their time to this site and who are proven map makers want to surprise you guys with a secret update, I don't have a problem with it. Think of it as a christmas present.
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