ARCHIVE PLEASE

[Evil Semp]

Thanks jcrymal, just trying to get a consensus on everyones opinion on the few things that seem to be agreeable to the majority.

Number four is directed at a few players, The majority of players on CC follow the rules. For those that dont that is the consequence. Believe that if one or two got hammered for real it would greatly curb anyone else's desire to follow in their footsteps.

The Idea here is to protect ? and players who dont understand all the maps and get invited into games over their heads by unscrupulous players.

?'s are already protected by the current farming rules.

Ok what we have so far that seems acceptable to all is

1. send all new recruits an email that lets them know about The SoC mentors,and Farmers and Ranchers, with examples of what that is.

2. Game filter that put standard maps and settings at the top of the game finder.

3.filter the deadbeat ? with the first game a 1vs1 with another ?

4. Send a CC wide email alerting all players that intentional farming or ranching will result in a non appeal perma ban. and that the email was the warning

Anything I missed or that anyone thinks needs to be added before I revise again?

I dont agree that all of these are "acceptable to all". No offense but thats reaching a bit brother. I think so far the majority in this forum can agree to number 1. Number 4 will never happen because there is no rule against "ranching". I agree it is bad sportsmanship but so is being a sore loser. I dont think that one has ore than minority support. In my experience if you approach someone with a list of suggestions and/or demands you will get none of them. If you approach with A suggestion you may have a chance. IMHO, lets try this in small steps and see what works. To be totally honest number four just sounds like you are looking to institute a rule to target a select few individuals. I am NOT saying you are. just that it comes across that way.

This is by no means an attempt to undermine what I think you are trying to accomplish. But just as an attempt at meeting in the middle lets pose this question.

@ Evil Semp, would you support the first item on this list if a fairly worded poll came out with a fair amount of positive answers?This would be preferably set up by someone with authority within the site to avoid another argument,

The only problem I have with number 1 is the mention of "ranching" because "ranching" is not against the rules.

I didn't realize I missed this point. I also don't agree with the perma-ban for the first offense.

[jgordon1111]

Come on ES, In this topic we are talking about Farming and Ranching. If other players have other Things let them say it in a different topic. And the emails wouldnt have to be that big Welcome to CC (the normal stuff) added in would be a blurb about farming and ranching that they are against the rules, where to find those rules, and a couple of examples of what they are. Along with SoC and where to find it.

Second email easier than the first CC wide PM about farming and ranching and the penalty for it.

third is adding Ranching in With the farming rule.

All in All minimal work to bring about one of the biggest changes for the better to the site.

Just saw your post about perma ban for first offense.

Actually it would be the best deterrent of all, If you knew you were gone with no appeal would you do it.
Why give a second chance to someone who knows it is against the rules and yet does it anyway.

Thats why I said the email or PM to everyone would be the warning

[Evil Semp]

Come on ES, In this topic we are talking about Farming and Ranching. If other players have other Things let them say it in a different topic. And the emails wouldnt have to be that big Welcome to CC (the normal stuff) added in would be a blurb about farming and ranching that they are against the rules, where to find those rules, and a couple of examples of what they are. Along with SoC and where to find it.

Second email easier than the first CC wide PM about farming and ranching and the penalty for it.

third is adding Ranching in With the farming rule.

All in All minimal work to bring about one of the biggest changes for the better to the site.

Just saw your post about perma ban for first offense.

Actually it would be the best deterrent of all, If you knew you were gone with no appeal would you do it.
Why give a second chance to someone who knows it is against the rules and yet does it anyway.

Thats why I said the email or PM to everyone would be the warning

My response was in response to woodruff because I feel if it isn't against the rules than there is no reason to include it in the e-mail.

As far as the perma ban I think there are worse things that deserve a perma ban that have to go through the warning process and farming should also.

[jgordon1111]

Do those other things that you think deserve perma bans more than farming or ranching ,affect the amount of players who choose to stay on CC and then tell their friends about it and become paying customers more than this does?
I want your opinions here ES, Because I believe you are not corrupted by your position or any alliances.
So what I asked above is not confrontational at all, just a question,wanting your opinion as you not as a MOD.

[Chariot of Fire]

I'll add to this later, but just wanted to suggest the message to new members should be a PM and not an e-mail. This way it's always in their Inbox (at least until it gets to 50 messages and knocked off the bottom, by which time the player will be savvy enough anyway) and will be at hand to read. If it contained useful links to such things as Joining a Clan, C&A Reports, General Discussion, etc then at least it may be said that every new member had the opportunity to verse himself in the ways of the community.

Another reason not to use e-mail as the medium is because I'd imagine a great many people use a dummy account to set-up their CC account rather than reveal details of their regular, personal e-mail address.

[jgordon1111]

Thank you CoF good point, Will remember that. PM instead of email.

[Chariot of Fire]

I've just been checking out opposition in the next round of a clan challenge i'm in.

One of the players is viperoverlord

Looking at his games, he plays a varied selection of maps and games, but he does seem to play a lot of private 1v1 games on lunar wars against cooks, cadets and other low ranked players.

Is it deemed farming if you play some of these games amongst other games?

seems like viper is looking at the GLG play book....and looks like he has been doing this for last couple of months....Viper Private 1v1's

and I think he feels like he will be ok to invite New Recruits as well...
Game 10081907
Game 10137191
Game 10146903
Game 10147072
Game 10063187...Kat the Great... NR when this game started
like some of the chat here

show: Game Chat

at least he is honest about what he is doing
and it was nice of him to play Kat the Great twice while she was still a New Recruit.....Game 10137194

Game 10074891...Dave Chappelle...NR when this game started
Game 10245259...Con88...NR when this game started
Game 10245260...TacticalPanda...NR when this game started

Game 10366457...and I think its obvious he is inviting these players..

show: Game Chat

Game 10501974....and he is even talking like GLG

show: Game Chat

25 private 1v1 games in the last 2 months and 10 of them against NR's that he has invited and he has about another 9/10 set-up ready to go....this is a worrying trend but something that is not a surprise

This is a very good post. Well researched. It just goes to show that unless this practice of setting-up dozens of private games and inviting unwary/unwitting players to them (as perfected by GLG) is not outlawed then others will simply follow suit, exactly as ViperOverLord is doing here. He is setting up games and inviting inexperienced players who don't know him (and can't fathom what the invite's about) simply to milk easy points.

What's wrong with people, when those invested with the authority to do something about it - i.e. make an example of someone - choose to turn a blind eye?

[Evil Semp]

Do those other things that you think deserve perma bans more than farming or ranching ,affect the amount of players who choose to stay on CC and then tell their friends about it and become paying customers more than this does?
I want your opinions here ES, Because I believe you are not corrupted by your position or any alliances.
So what I asked above is not confrontational at all, just a question,wanting your opinion as you not as a MOD.

Yes I do. Lets not even talk perma ban right now. I think the way people are treated in game chat effects more players staying or leaving than farming does. I think the perception that the dice aren't random effects the decision of more people than farming.

[JCR]

Do those other things that you think deserve perma bans more than farming or ranching ,affect the amount of players who choose to stay on CC and then tell their friends about it and become paying customers more than this does?
I want your opinions here ES, Because I believe you are not corrupted by your position or any alliances.
So what I asked above is not confrontational at all, just a question,wanting your opinion as you not as a MOD.

Yes I do. Lets not even talk perma ban right now. I think the way people are treated in game chat effects more players staying or leaving than farming does. I think the perception that the dice aren't random effects the decision of more people than farming.

I cant disagree with that. My wife backed way off because of so much negativity. She hasn't quit but it killed her enjoyment to a degree.
@jgordon, Permabanned players are probably just going to find a way to come back as a new account with an attitude. The only thing that would accomplish is shutting down that account.

That being said "Ranching" really has less to do with protecting NRs and more to do with protecting the integrity of the scoreboard. would you agree with that ES?

If that is true then by its nature only those heavily invested in the site are truly going to be concerned with it since most (including myself) will never see the front page. My impression is that some of those players wish to see a change made to prevent points manipulation through ranching as a way to protect/restore integrity to the scoreboard. Is that correct Jgordon?

[jgordon1111]

First to ES ok I will concede the negativity in chat as a good point.

And the dice are as random as possible as far I can see, If someone has it in there mind they aren't, changing their perception is next to impossible.

And perma ban for farming and ranching will make it decline, jcrymal your point is they would find a way back and you may be correct but even if they did they would know at that point Admin and the Mods were not kidding and the odds of them doing it again would be slim. therefore the scoreboard would balance back out.

[Woodruff]

The only problem I have with number 1 is the mention of "ranching" because "ranching" is not against the rules.

So? Just because certain activities are not explicitly against the rules does not mean that new players shouldn't be warned about those activities, particularly when those activities are designed to take advantage of them.

Than we should also include the abuse in the forums that some members dish out. Tell them that if the way they play doesn't conform with your way of playing is frowned upon. Hey just want to let you know some people will miss turns to try to gain and advantage. Look out in FOW games some will give away your positions and troop counts.

People don't read the rules or the community guidelines so how big do you want this e-mail to be?

First of all, I appreciate you weighing in, Semp. I like that you're willing to speak your mind, and you almost always come across as speaking YOUR mind, not being a mouthpiece. So please don't take this as attacking or confrontational...I don't mean it that way, but sometimes I come across that way when I don't mean to. At any rate, this suggestion doesn't relate to those things, so they are irrelevant to the point that we are trying to make.

[Woodruff]

And perma ban for farming and ranching will make it decline, jcrymal your point is they would find a way back and you may be correct but even if they did they would know at that point Admin and the Mods were not kidding and the odds of them doing it again would be slim. therefore the scoreboard would balance back out.

This will never be implemented, because the site won't make money by perma-banning anyone (and if you want lackattack to think long-term with anything, it seems to me that you're not thinking clearly).

[Pedronicus]

If I was in charge, VOL would receive a warning if someone brought it to my attention, that he was inviting lesser ranked players to his tricky map.

If he carried on, point reset.

Same goes for anyone else taking the piss.

All we need is that to be a rule and a few high scorers being reset - the message would soon get out there.

[jgordon1111]

thank you pedronicus, a viable solution to a perma ban and just as effective as a deterrent.

[Viceroy63]

If there is a problem with farming it could be because every one is in the same room playing together. Experts playing with novices with no regards to skill levels. You don't put kinder garden children with high school children to play in the same school grounds/rooms. You put high school students apart from kinder garden children. That way all the children enjoy playing with their own levels of play and skill. Why not have a kind of kinder garden CC for all new players until they reach a certain rank, say corporal or Sergeant. There they only play against each other until they pass the rank Sergeant and when they graduate they can no longer play against those in the kinder garden levels.

Once they pass the rank of Captain, or lieutenant, or what ever rank is reasonable then they go to the College level players and no longer play lessor ranking players. Unless of course they get demoted and have to go back to the previous levels. This may sound like rank segregation but it would provide for better plays and greater fun. It is no fun getting your arse kicked by some one who knows how to play and you don't have the least idea why you are losing all your games. At least this way you do not consistently keep losing your points to farmers and better, higher skills players.

I think that this would also encourage players to join SoC Training Fields in order to improve their games and their ranks and to move on to the next class. At the same time this would also eliminate all those players who are excellent players in their own rights and yet they are attending SoC Training fields??? SoC stands for Society of Cooks! So how come we see so many high rankings officers in SoC Training fields. SoC should be for like kinder garden and then high school level could have something different like, "The Captains Lounge" or some thing like that where more advance studies could be offered. Like wise the very high elite could have, "General Quarters" where really advance psychological tactical play could be offered there.

One thing I have learned is that when very high ranking players play against low ranking players the high ranking players tend to eliminate the low ranking players regardless of the strategies. They simply do not want to lose too many points to a low ranking player. So all the high ranking players practically gang up on the low ranking players just to get them out of the game right away. Where is the fun in that? Having different levels of playing fields would eliminate such practices. When Generals play each other they would not then be ganging up on anyone because they will all lose relatively the same amount of points with each other. They can then concentrate on just having fun in the game and not about, lets get all of the newbie's out of the game first just in case any of them get lucky.

I believe that there are problems with the current system but only because it is a system design by humans with human nature and human faults programed into it. Even so all things grow and evolved for the better or they die. CC will eventually come to see that there are problems and that they can be resolved and CC made a better place for everyone, or something better will come along and everyone will go there instead and CC will be left holding the bag. In the end it is all about the money. So if CC wants to improve it's profits they will find ways to satisfy their customers. That is also something else that I see. People who do not renew their premium membership simply because they no longer find CC premium membership worth it. You can get a person hooked with freemium membership but if you can't get them to stay in Premium membership year after year and having fun, then in the long run, it's only money down the drain.

[Chariot of Fire]

Good post Viceroy. And you are quite right in that many high-ranking players will cooperate to eliminate a low-ranking one for fear of points loss. There really is seldom a need for experienced players to take on the new and inexperienced (or useless). By having divisions it would encourage/stimulate the desire for promotion.

In anticipation of the argument against this ("But what if friends want to play together?") it could easily be worked around by allowing low ranks to invite high ranks (but not vice versa). A friend can accept the invite; a perplexed high-ranker can simply decline the invite (as he knows better). Any games set-up for tournaments are the exception to the rule - also easy to program into the revised system.

Thanks for your thoughtful insight. It threw a new perspective on an ongoing problem.

[fusibaseball]

removed

[Chariot of Fire]

CC's profitability of course has to be borne in mind. I doubt however that the proposals suggested in previous posts would detract from that profitability or from the enjoyment that we - and the site owner - would like new members to experience. I think it's far more detrimental to have one person (a farmer) enjoy himself at the expense of dozens of others. I wonder how many players who came to this site looking for fun have been deterred after receiving an invite from a high-ranking player simply to get steamrollered in a game in which they had little to no chance. It's like date rape. What promised to be a good experience turned into a very unsavoury one - just ask the victim the next day. Unfortunately here I expect there are many who don't stick around long enough or are too naive to know how to complain about it.

I know in any of the businesses I ran that if I had an employee that upset fellow workers and/or took advantage of new employees I would immediately take steps to reprimand or remove him - for the welfare of my workforce and the betterment of my business.

[Woodruff]

If there is a problem with farming it could be because every one is in the same room playing together. Experts playing with novices with no regards to skill levels. You don't put kinder garden children with high school children to play in the same school grounds/rooms. You put high school students apart from kinder garden children. That way all the children enjoy playing with their own levels of play and skill. Why not have a kind of kinder garden CC for all new players until they reach a certain rank, say corporal or Sergeant. There they only play against each other until they pass the rank Sergeant and when they graduate they can no longer play against those in the kinder garden levels.

Once they pass the rank of Captain, or lieutenant, or what ever rank is reasonable then they go to the College level players and no longer play lessor ranking players. Unless of course they get demoted and have to go back to the previous levels. This may sound like rank segregation but it would provide for better plays and greater fun. It is no fun getting your arse kicked by some one who knows how to play and you don't have the least idea why you are losing all your games. At least this way you do not consistently keep losing your points to farmers and better, higher skills players.

I think that this would also encourage players to join SoC Training Fields in order to improve their games and their ranks and to move on to the next class. At the same time this would also eliminate all those players who are excellent players in their own rights and yet they are attending SoC Training fields??? SoC stands for Society of Cooks! So how come we see so many high rankings officers in SoC Training fields. SoC should be for like kinder garden and then high school level could have something different like, "The Captains Lounge" or some thing like that where more advance studies could be offered. Like wise the very high elite could have, "General Quarters" where really advance psychological tactical play could be offered there.

One thing I have learned is that when very high ranking players play against low ranking players the high ranking players tend to eliminate the low ranking players regardless of the strategies. They simply do not want to lose too many points to a low ranking player. So all the high ranking players practically gang up on the low ranking players just to get them out of the game right away. Where is the fun in that? Having different levels of playing fields would eliminate such practices. When Generals play each other they would not then be ganging up on anyone because they will all lose relatively the same amount of points with each other. They can then concentrate on just having fun in the game and not about, lets get all of the newbie's out of the game first just in case any of them get lucky.

I believe that there are problems with the current system but only because it is a system design by humans with human nature and human faults programed into it. Even so all things grow and evolved for the better or they die. CC will eventually come to see that there are problems and that they can be resolved and CC made a better place for everyone, or something better will come along and everyone will go there instead and CC will be left holding the bag. In the end it is all about the money. So if CC wants to improve it's profits they will find ways to satisfy their customers. That is also something else that I see. People who do not renew their premium membership simply because they no longer find CC premium membership worth it. You can get a person hooked with freemium membership but if you can't get them to stay in Premium membership year after year and having fun, then in the long run, it's only money down the drain.

An excellent post. Which means it will be rejected (not by jgordon, mind you).

[Woodruff]

I know in any of the businesses I ran that if I had an employee that upset fellow workers and/or took advantage of new employees I would immediately take steps to reprimand or remove him - for the welfare of my workforce and the betterment of my business.

Frankly, I strongly suspect that lackattack is oblivious to what goes on here. Or maybe that's just hopeful thinking on my part.

[Viceroy63]

Good post Viceroy. And you are quite right in that many high-ranking players will cooperate to eliminate a low-ranking one for fear of points loss. There really is seldom a need for experienced players to take on the new and inexperienced (or useless). By having divisions it would encourage/stimulate the desire for promotion.

In anticipation of the argument against this ("But what if friends want to play together?") it could easily be worked around by allowing low ranks to invite high ranks (but not vice versa). A friend can accept the invite; a perplexed high-ranker can simply decline the invite (as he knows better). Any games set-up for tournaments are the exception to the rule - also easy to program into the revised system.

Thanks for your thoughtful insight. It threw a new perspective on an ongoing problem.

A though about the lower ranking players inviting the higher ranking one's is, that the higher ranking player should be able to win the lower ranking player most of the time. The factor of experience is what makes the game more fun and enjoyable. When two like minds meet in the field of battle and put to the test their intellects, that's what makes for a great game and even greater enjoyment. Otherwise it's just an onslaught. Most of the time. In any case the lower ranking player can wait until he meets his friend as an Equal.

Also if the higher ranking player truly desires to play with his lower ranking friend, then he might be better motivated to mentor his friend along and help him progress that much more faster through the ranks. I think that a part of the reason why more people don't mentor others is because they would rather keep the knowledge to themselves. That is just so selfish and unworthy of a friend. People who only care for high scores over fun games don't really have friends. They have victims. That's what would happen when you put older children to play with with the younger ones. The older kids usually beat up on the younger ones. Even when the younger ones want to play with the older children, the parent in their wisdom always say, "No, I don't want you playing with the older kids."

I think that it is just a good idea all the way around to just keep everyone playing at their levels and separated. Otherwise we could also be seeing Farming, only in reverse. The more experience higher ranking player could always initiate first contact and ask to be invited to the lower ranking games. In which case the higher ranking player, if he is a really good player, could clean up a whole lot of points from the other, younger kids. Not to mention that the higher ranking player could know the lower ranking player and both be in on what is really happening. Like a sting operation for points.

At any rate with the exception of tournaments, this idea of separated class players will only work if it is a complete and total separation of classes and ranks. Any thing else could provide a loop hole to a problem.

[jgordon1111]

I would Like to thank all posters for your input and support.

After looking at many other threads and complaints I believe that a change is more then can be accomplished by any small group.

Ok admin you can archive this one now