Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

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Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby donkeymile on Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:42 pm

This has been discussed before but I just wanted to bring attention to it again because I think the powers that be need to look at this and adjust the rules accordingly.

In this game <http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=10512224> we have an opponent who attacks and then just lets the time run out to avoid the cards - as this is nuclear you can understand why he might not want to gain another card.

I've seen this happen in other games, but this guy takes the cake. He's done it now about 5 or 6 times, pretty much any time he attacks, and I think its a really cheap tactic - though not against the rules - yet! (The past 7 times he has attacked he has let time run out).

This is a serial abuse of the loophole that allows you to gain everything you want in a game and not suffer a single consequence for it ... just isn't right. The sad thing is that this player is otherwise a stand-up kind of guy who I enjoy playing against .... but I'm just really pissed off that he's using this cheap tactic.

I don't want to FAMO as many of you will suggest. What I'd like is to see this problem addressed in the rules.

So as stated, was looking for some exposure for this issue, and wondered what others thought.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby HighlanderAttack on Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:53 pm

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby frankiebee on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:12 am

My opinion is that the CC game should come close to the board game. When you play on a board it's not a possibilty to ''run out of time.'' So I think it's not right to exploit the time limit as he does.

But hey, what are you going to do about it ?
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby pearljamrox2 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:21 am

frankiebee wrote:My opinion is that the CC game should come close to the board game. When you play on a board it's not a possibilty to ''run out of time.'' So I think it's not right to exploit the time limit as he does.

But hey, what are you going to do about it ?


If you want your game to closely resemble the board game, you probably shouldn't be playing with nuclear spoils. You also shouldn't play with fog. And you should probably stick to playing on the classic map.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby frankiebee on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:33 am

pearljamrox2 wrote:
frankiebee wrote:My opinion is that the CC game should come close to the board game. When you play on a board it's not a possibilty to ''run out of time.'' So I think it's not right to exploit the time limit as he does.

But hey, what are you going to do about it ?


If you want your game to closely resemble the board game, you probably shouldn't be playing with nuclear spoils. You also shouldn't play with fog. And you should probably stick to playing on the classic map.


Nuclear spoils is not really the problem. You can use this tactic with escalating to.
What I meant was that you should'nt exploit tactics that are only there because the game is online, but that's just my opinion.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby AAFitz on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:37 am

I don't think there's anything wrong with not ending the turn. However, once the turn is started, and a territory taken, the card should be given regardless automatically, which would avoid the problem altogether.

Since the game is not set up that way, and you sometimes can miss taking a card, which may change the game, choosing to not take a card is very much a valid strategy, even though I realize some may view it as dirty.

There really cant be a rule against it though, because it would be near impossible to determine when it was accidental and when it was on purpose, and again, many consider it all part of the game.

I think if you choose to play a nuclear game or even escalating, you simply have to choose to accept it as a perfectly valid possibility. If taking another card means you will lose, you're insane to take one yourself by hitting end when you don't have to as well. If CC wants to enforce you take a card, its really their responsibility to program it in, not police the use of the game as programmed in this particular case.

Personally, I think it adds another layer of strategy by having to end, and by being able to choose not to end, which thereby makes the game better and more challenging, not worse.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby pearljamrox2 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:08 am

frankiebee wrote:
pearljamrox2 wrote:
frankiebee wrote:My opinion is that the CC game should come close to the board game. When you play on a board it's not a possibilty to ''run out of time.'' So I think it's not right to exploit the time limit as he does.

But hey, what are you going to do about it ?


If you want your game to closely resemble the board game, you probably shouldn't be playing with nuclear spoils. You also shouldn't play with fog. And you should probably stick to playing on the classic map.


Nuclear spoils is not really the problem. You can use this tactic with escalating to.
What I meant was that you should'nt exploit tactics that are only there because the game is online, but that's just my opinion.


You could also be playing an escalating game on a complex map, like Rail Europe, and have to make a move so well thought out and precise that it might take your entire hour to do it without screwing up..especially if you dont like auto assault. It would suck to run out of time because it's such a big move and you are being very deliberate....but I imagine the other players in the game wouldn't be crying about you missing your card in that instance, huh?

I guess it is ok to accidently run out of time and be punished for it, but it's totally wrong to do it on purpose if the penalty is less than the reward. How hypocritical!
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby blakebowling on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:11 am

Moved to Strategy.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby AAFitz on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:15 am

blakebowling wrote:Moved to Strategy.


Never heard of it. :lol:
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby demonfork on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:15 am

It's a completely legitimate strategy, one in which you must give up any possible fortifications in order to avoid a card.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby AAFitz on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:17 am

demonfork wrote:It's a completely legitimate strategy, one in which you must give up any possible fortifications in order to avoid a card.


...in adjacent, or chained settings
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby pearljamrox2 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:20 am

demonfork wrote:It's a completely legitimate strategy, one in which you must give up any possible fortifications in order to avoid a card.


What if it is unlimited forts? Couldn't you just fort and not push end reinforcements? Seems like it would work...but I don't know, never tried it.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby demonfork on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:34 am

pearljamrox2 wrote:
demonfork wrote:It's a completely legitimate strategy, one in which you must give up any possible fortifications in order to avoid a card.


What if it is unlimited forts? Couldn't you just fort and not push end reinforcements? Seems like it would work...but I don't know, never tried it.


Good point...I think that would work.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby Jippd on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:20 am

I think this is a good strategy in nuclear maps and one that you should know exists on nuclear spoils. Use it to your advantage as well
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby macbone on Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:13 am

It's definitely a shrewd strategy, but it seems like it's exploiting a loophole rather than utilizing a feature.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby pearljamrox2 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:36 am

Nope, no loophole. A loophole is a way to avoid the intentions of a rule.

You have exactly an hour from the time you start your turn to complete your turn. If you do not end your turn before the hour is up, you will not receive spoils. This is the exact intention of the system that we use. It is a penalty for not finishing your turn in the amount of time given. It is a well known feature of our game, and it penalizes us all equally, no matter who we are.

To the punctual goes the spoils?
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby gannable on Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:54 am

i did this once in an escalating game where i needed to take a territory but if I took a card I would have had 3 cards and a perfect kill for the next player.
Afterwards, I felt dirty and ashamed

but we won the game

so I was able to recover emotionally
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby scarryer on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:18 pm

What is annoying about this is it makes everyone wait longer to do this "tactic." If it is acceptable practice, there should be a "skip turn" button so that we don't have to all wait an hour (or 24 hours when someone is intentionally skipping their whole turn).
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby Evolution299 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:24 pm

Oops double post.
Last edited by Evolution299 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby Evolution299 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:27 pm

pearljamrox2 wrote:Nope, no loophole. A loophole is a way to avoid the intentions of a rule.

You have exactly an hour from the time you start your turn to complete your turn. If you do not end your turn before the hour is up, you will not receive spoils. This is the exact intention of the system that we use. It is a penalty for not finishing your turn in the amount of time given. It is a well known feature of our game, and it penalizes us all equally, no matter who we are.

To the punctual goes the spoils?


The problem Dynasty is that in Nuclear, a card isnt just a reward, but also a punishment. By not taking the card, you are basically having your cake and eating it too. I'm pretty sure that thats not how the system for nuclear games was intended.

Simple answer for this problem, is at the end of the 1hour time limit in Nuclear games only, a card is awarded. No ifs ands or buts.

Problem solved. It should not be that hard to write that into the program.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby pearljamrox2 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:21 pm

Evolution299 wrote:
The problem Dynasty is that in Nuclear, a card isnt just a reward, but also a punishment. By not taking the card, you are basically having your cake and eating it too. I'm pretty sure that thats not how the system for nuclear games was intended.

Simple answer for this problem, is at the end of the 1hour time limit in Nuclear games only, a card is awarded. No ifs ands or buts.

Problem solved. It should not be that hard to write that into the program.


Maybe the way you choose to play, it isn't a reward. It is still called a spoil though. I find it very rewarding to own a card with a territory that I know will not be blown up. That's a good place to keep a stack of troops.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby Bones2484 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:12 pm

pearljamrox2 wrote:Nope, no loophole. A loophole is a way to avoid the intentions of a rule.


Awesome quote which actually is an argument against what you are trying to say. Refraining from pushing a button to end your turn as you should when you could easily end your turn is quite clearly a "way to avoid the intentions of a rule".
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby pearljamrox2 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:30 pm

Bones2484 wrote:
Awesome quote which actually is an argument against what you are trying to say. Refraining from pushing a button to end your turn as you should when you could easily end your turn is quite clearly a "way to avoid the intentions of a rule".


I knew you'd like that. The problem is..there is no rule that says you must push the button and end your turn. You are simply given an hour to take your turn. That hour is your time to use. There is nothing that says you can't use every single second that is available to you. And if you use up all your time, without ending....Conquer Club will not give you your card. I've been in quite a few Freestyle Battle Royals where I didn't have a card spot until the last few seconds..I made my attack but I couldn't end my turn fast enough. So I made a worthless attack. I didn't get the card I wanted, and it ruined my game....and funny, no one in the game seemed to mind that I missed out on my card all that much.
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby Viceroy63 on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:43 pm

gannable wrote:i did this once in an escalating game where i needed to take a territory but if I took a card I would have had 3 cards and a perfect kill for the next player.
Afterwards, I felt dirty and ashamed

but we won the game

so I was able to recover emotionally


Wow! I never thought of that before. What an idea, Huh?

But still, if I did that and then felt dirty and ashamed because of that; I'd just take a really good shower, go to church and confess my sins so that I could at least get a good nights' sleep. :D

Hope that was helpful. =)
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Re: Letting Time Run Out to Avoid Cards

Postby Tiller on Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:52 am

AAFitz wrote:I think if you choose to play a nuclear game or even escalating, you simply have to choose to accept it as a perfectly valid possibility. If taking another card means you will lose, you're insane to take one yourself by hitting end when you don't have to as well. If CC wants to enforce you take a card, its really their responsibility to program it in, not police the use of the game as programmed in this particular case.

Personally, I think it adds another layer of strategy by having to end, and by being able to choose not to end, which thereby makes the game better and more challenging, not worse.



I'm in 100% agreement with Fitz and pearljam on this one, both sides can do the exact same thing and the only negative towards anyone is a bit of wasted time (which generally happens no matter what). A card is something that happens when you end your turn normally and is intended to be a reward. If you don't want the reward because you feel it won't help you, you take the penalty of lost forts already in that choice, or even if it's not a choice when its unintentional and you run out of time because the turn takes that long or you lose your connection to the internet. Sometimes a nuclear or escalating card that you don't want turns out to be something that saves you later, and giving it up makes you lose the game, you just can't know beforehand with a random generator (trading in escalating earlier than I wanted for 4 armies rather than 15 but then getting 20 to win the game the next turn has often surprised me, same thing with nukes when I lose a territory I wanted to keep but wind up hurting the opposition much more than that... but still odds were looking better for me by not taking the card, I just didn't feel like waiting it out). Treating a run-out of time as a strategy that either side can use is by far the best response to this, and sometimes it happens unintentionally as well and there's no point in creating acrimony over false expectations of how something "should" be done when it's not really part of the programming and hence the rules. You can do it too. I wish all players would, in cases where it helped them, rather than complain and try to force someone else to not do the same.
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