Worrying trends in the foundry

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Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:55 pm

I will not post names, because I don't want this to be about pointing fingers. you know who you are. Others can probably also recognize where these quotes are from. But guys, this has got to stop!

Exhibit #1:

Suspect A wrote:This is my map, and once again, to the foundry, if this one little piece of a map can't be mine, then let it sit here forever until it is moved back to the bin, and that will be that.


Exhibit #2:

Suspect B wrote:I do not share your opinion, and it did look stupid and i dident like it, so its not goin to happend, i rater bin this than doin a "stupid looking" map


Exhibit #3:

Suspect C wrote:So please let's end this debate right now. If anyone wants to continue the debate then I will not continue working on this, as I have many other things I could be doing with some of my free time.



---

Now guys, can we PLEASE stop doing this? This whole thing of "if I don't get my way I'll just quit working on this!"

And CA:s, can you PLEASE make sure that these kinds of "ultimatums" are not taken seriously? If one mapmaker gets away with ignoring feedback by threatening to bin the map, pretty soon everyone will be using the same excuse, and we can just pack up our shit here and disband the whole foundry, because what's the point of a peer-review system if anyone can subvert it by threatening to pick up their toys and go home?

Seriously. Don't do this anymore. If you want your map to be binned, then bin it, but don't use the threat of binning as leverage to try to get away from addressing feedback/criticism.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:20 am

Fine, you're 10 times better graphics artist, is that what you want to hear?

I can't do any better, if my work isn't suddenly good enough, then bin this, because I can't do it any better. I don't have the means to do so. Understand?


natty, it is found in many threads, here is another example I found in another thread. Map makers make these threats when they become frustrated, not only at there limitations but also at the constant picking at there work.

Honestly, I can't make the line any better than what it is. I've redrawn it once already, redrawing it again won't make it any better.


Here is another type of comment that is also posted quite often in the foundry by map makers. Refusing to work on a part of a map as you have said to me is not OK, but again, it all comes down to what we know, how willing we are to try something new and to learn.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:40 am

koontz1973 wrote:natty, it is found in many threads, here is another example I found in another thread. Map makers make these threats when they become frustrated, not only at there limitations but also at the constant picking at there work.


Frustration is understandable, but it should be addressed constructively. We, as a community, need to get away from this kind of behaviour.

I'm not blaming anyone here, nor am I absolving any others, I'm sure we're all guilty of bad behaviour at times. I'm just saying that if we recognize the bad stuff, then we can work towards addressing it and concentrate on not perpetuating it.

The "constant picking" is a necessary part of the process. We should all remember that, and that it ultimately only leads to our work becoming better.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:02 am

I think what we need as map makers is to all remember that we are human. It is easy to forget sitting at a computer. There is going to be no way, as a mixed bunch that we will always agree on things posted. But instead of posting something we may regret, it is a good idea to step away and come back later. Also, we all have our own styles for maps, so trying to force map makers into "this style" will always cause conflict.

It costs nothing to be polite, but it seems silly to say please and thank you to a computer. :P
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:28 am

koontz1973 wrote:I think what we need as map makers is to all remember that we are human. It is easy to forget sitting at a computer. There is going to be no way, as a mixed bunch that we will always agree on things posted.


Which is a good thing.

koontz1973 wrote:But instead of posting something we may regret, it is a good idea to step away and come back later.


True.

koontz1973 wrote:Also, we all have our own styles for maps, so trying to force map makers into "this style" will always cause conflict.


I haven't really seen anyone force anyone else to any particular style. However, sometimes it is reasonable to prod a mapmaker to search for a better style. Most of us have all been there at least once: start with a map in one style, then someone comes along and points out that it isn't quite working, we end up with another style and it's ultimately for the best...

Also, it's important to make a distinction between style and execution. A map can have great style but if it's executed poorly, it won't matter...
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:37 am

natty dread wrote:Also, it's important to make a distinction between style and execution. A map can have great style but if it's executed poorly, it won't matter...


True, but if a style is poorly executed, should not the map maker be given help to solve the issues, not just told it does not work and be forced to change it. Your London and my 1982 map went through this for the better but it does seem a chore more than a pleasure sometimes. I am still in 2 minds over 1982, whether or not to play it or pull it. It is still my game play and that makes me want to play it, but the overall look is not what I wanted and is now so far from what I wanted in the first place, it seems like it is not my map any more.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:26 am

if this thread isn't taken seriously i will bin all my maps. 8-[ :mrgreen:
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:01 am

koontz1973 wrote:if a style is poorly executed, should not the map maker be given help to solve the issues, not just told it does not work and be forced to change it.


Yes and that's what happens. No one forces you to change the style unless the style is the problem.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:19 am

Back on your first post. I'm well aware about this trend. Easy thing to solve. The CAs will tell to the mapmakers to quit. The mapmakers has to start to think that no one here is asking them to draw maps. I already said this: mapmaking is not a right, it's a privilege. Don't expect the site asks to you to draw maps, instead it's YOU that is asking to the site if you can draw a map for it. THe site has its standard, if you can meet them your map will be quenched, if not, sorry but try something else to spend your time.
It could sound harsh but it's the flat and real truth.
Then, we can pretend that it's not in this way forever but it's just the dog chasing its tail.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:51 am

thenobodies80 wrote:Back on your first post. I'm well aware about this trend. Easy thing to solve. The CAs will tell to the mapmakers to quit. The mapmakers has to start to think that no one here is asking them to draw maps. I already said this: mapmaking is not a right, it's a privilege. Don't expect the site asks to you to draw maps, instead it's YOU that is asking to the site if you can draw a map for it. THe site has its standard, if you can meet them your map will be quenched, if not, sorry but try something else to spend your time.
It could sound harsh but it's the flat and real truth.
Then, we can pretend that it's not in this way forever but it's just the dog chasing its tail.

Well, yes and no. You certainly don't want the map thread to turn into a bitch thread because a CA straight-up told the mapmaker to quit, rather I think it is the CAs' job to hold their ground and explain why they are doing so. As the 'officials' of the mapmaking process, they should still strive toward helping every eligible/qualified map to quenching.

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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:38 am

Sorry I had to explain me better, I have the flu so probably today I'm not so good to explain things in the right way.
CAs don't have to tell to the mapmakers to quit. In fact they HAVE to say how to to do things, not just ask to mapmakers that they need to change things. But if the mapmakers tell to the foundry people and to CAs that they won't change the things because it's their map, then the CAs can leave the map die. Hope it's more clear in this way. ;)
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby RjBeals on Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:43 pm

That sub forum for tips & tricks (and lessons and shortcuts and examples) should be more utilized. It's obvious that people out there want to make maps, but don't have the skills that the community has grown judge against. Why hasn't anyone made a screenr yet? I love coming across those sort of tut's online.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again - there should be tutorial awards (similar to how cartographersguild does). If people can display an award for a recognized tutorial, then there will be a lot more and a lot better tut's, and eventually a lot better maps. For a site built around user submitted maps, I would think the site would want to do whatever it could to help users make the best maps.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:57 pm

I wrote a tutorial once. I think some people might have even read it...
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby Victor Sullivan on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:01 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Sorry I had to explain me better, I have the flu so probably today I'm not so good to explain things in the right way.
CAs don't have to tell to the mapmakers to quit. In fact they HAVE to say how to to do things, not just ask to mapmakers that they need to change things. But if the mapmakers tell to the foundry people and to CAs that they won't change the things because it's their map, then the CAs can leave the map die. Hope it's more clear in this way. ;)

Ah, very good :)


natty dread wrote:I wrote a tutorial once. I think some people might have even read it...

:-$ :mrgreen:

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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:06 pm

natty dread wrote:I wrote a tutorial once. I think some people might have even read it...


while your tutorial is indeed important for those that use gimp for the first time, it's obviously nowhere near enough to make a decent map. so a great one is out of the question.

we need tutorials about basic stuff to help new-commers on the path to map-making, but more importantly we need specialised niche tutorials.

advanced stuff for details on maps and various techniques that beautify our images.

for example take a look at the image in rj's sig. it's rather easy to do the terits and the borders in there. even the texture. but how do you do the shore shadow. those little grungy lines along the shore line make everything look better. they might not seem much but it's stuff like this that differentiates decent maps from great maps.

tutorial medals could be a good idea.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:19 pm

DiM wrote:while your tutorial is indeed important for those that use gimp for the first time, it's obviously nowhere near enough to make a decent map.


True. It's a basic tutorial for beginners, one that introduces them to the fundamental tools and techniques that will allow them to learn more by themselves.

I've been meaning to write a more advanced tutorial one of these days, the only problem is that some of my techniques are sort of dependent on tablet use, and I'm not sure how to adapt them for more general purpose...

DiM wrote:but how do you do the shore shadow. those little grungy lines along the shore line make everything look better.


Hm, I can think of a couple of ways... First create a texture that has that grungy line pattern, then create an outer glow around the land... hide the glow, then use it to alpha mask the texture.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:27 pm

natty dread wrote:
DiM wrote:but how do you do the shore shadow. those little grungy lines along the shore line make everything look better.


Hm, I can think of a couple of ways... First create a texture that has that grungy line pattern, then create an outer glow around the land... hide the glow, then use it to alpha mask the texture.


i was just giving an example, i wasn't asking for a tutorial :P
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:37 pm

DiM wrote:
natty dread wrote:
DiM wrote:but how do you do the shore shadow. those little grungy lines along the shore line make everything look better.


Hm, I can think of a couple of ways... First create a texture that has that grungy line pattern, then create an outer glow around the land... hide the glow, then use it to alpha mask the texture.


i was just giving an example, i wasn't asking for a tutorial :P


I know, I just can't resist talking about graphics :P
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby RjBeals on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:58 pm

i used my pen/tablet and actually sketched those lines
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:10 pm

RjBeals wrote:i used my pen/tablet and actually sketched those lines


That was the other way I was thinking of :mrgreen:
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:12 pm

RjBeals wrote:i used my pen/tablet and actually sketched those lines


that involves actual talent which i don't have and no tutorial will teach me :lol:


PS: on a separate note, what's going on with majcom? it seems to be slower than ever. it takes up to 1 minute to load a page. and no it's not my connection since everything else on the internet is lightning fast.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby RjBeals on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:12 pm

I beg to differ DiM - you have tons of talent. Very creative. It doesn't take much to draw some wavy lines around the coast.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:25 pm

"Talent" is overrated anyway.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:36 pm

RjBeals wrote:I beg to differ DiM - you have tons of talent. Very creative. It doesn't take much to draw some wavy lines around the coast.



creativity is no longer required on CC. cows are today's special. tomorrow pigs and other animals. next week the brain and human anatomy. then keyboard, piano and the periodic table of elements.
who needs creativity when we can take the dictionary and transform almost any noun into a map?


as for actual hand-drawing i'm ashamed to admit i'm just a bit better than my 3 year old daughter. :lol:
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby The Bison King on Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:09 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Back on your first post. I'm well aware about this trend. Easy thing to solve. The CAs will tell to the mapmakers to quit. The mapmakers has to start to think that no one here is asking them to draw maps. I already said this: mapmaking is not a right, it's a privilege. Don't expect the site asks to you to draw maps, instead it's YOU that is asking to the site if you can draw a map for it. THe site has its standard, if you can meet them your map will be quenched, if not, sorry but try something else to spend your time.
It could sound harsh but it's the flat and real truth.
Then, we can pretend that it's not in this way forever but it's just the dog chasing its tail.

thenobodies80 wrote:Sorry I had to explain me better, I have the flu so probably today I'm not so good to explain things in the right way.
CAs don't have to tell to the mapmakers to quit. In fact they HAVE to say how to to do things, not just ask to mapmakers that they need to change things. But if the mapmakers tell to the foundry people and to CAs that they won't change the things because it's their map, then the CAs can leave the map die. Hope it's more clear in this way. ;)

Yes that's great except that one of the comments posted in Natty's original post was from a CA. What then? How do we address this problem when the people who are supposed to discourage this behavior are guilty of it themselves?

This is another bothersome excerpt from the same thread:

If I do this for Ohioians, then I'll have to do it for Utahians, then Californians then ... you get the picture.

Basically he's using the excuse that if one change is made to appease a certain group then he'll have to make changes in other regions of the map to make it more accurate. Which really is the whole point of the foundry in the first place, right? To listen to feedback and make appropriate changes in areas where other peoples expertise outweighs your own. Saying that you aren't going to take a step towards improvement in one area because it will force you to improve the map over all is sort of like saying you aren't interested in doing a good job. If you aren't listening to the people who live in those places and will be playing the map it is really like saying that you aren't interested in making maps for the users of this website, you're making the map for yourself, and you don't care what other people think. I really feel like that is the wrong attitude for a map maker, let alone a CA, to have.
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