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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:53 am

koontz1973 wrote:
Gillipig wrote:As others have said before me, remove the flies, grass and cow pat. They might be good for gameplay but try to justify how any of that would be on a butchers wall. It's impossible! I would like to see more of the wall and the bonuses made in a way that somehow fits a butchers picture of a cow. Maybe a minimap would be more fitting?

Instead of doing a mini map, try for a chalk board and instead of having bonuses, how about prices. So it would be
£6 Sirloin
£5 Rump
and so on.

YES!
Look at that suggestion Dana! It will integrate the bonuses nicely to the butcher theme!
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Victor Sullivan on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:01 am

I agree with Gillipig (*vomits a little*), koontz's idea is great! :)

-Sully

P.S. Love you, Gillipig :P ;)
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:49 am

I love you too :-({|= :P
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby The Bison King on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:39 pm

Gillipig wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
Gillipig wrote:As others have said before me, remove the flies, grass and cow pat. They might be good for gameplay but try to justify how any of that would be on a butchers wall. It's impossible! I would like to see more of the wall and the bonuses made in a way that somehow fits a butchers picture of a cow. Maybe a minimap would be more fitting?

Instead of doing a mini map, try for a chalk board and instead of having bonuses, how about prices. So it would be
£6 Sirloin
£5 Rump
and so on.

YES!
Look at that suggestion Dana! It will integrate the bonuses nicely to the butcher theme!

Agreed I like this idea too. It pulls in the butcher theme way more. Also:

No poster would have flies on it in a food shop so they need to go. Same for the cow pat and grass. These two with there high neutrals will never get taken. The fly swarm, although it is a nice idea would need a lot of symbols to denote what it can attack (look at flapcakes trench map). Take all threee of these out.

I really don't think these territories are funny or necessary and they don't fit the theme.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby DiM on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:41 pm

since the standards have already been thrown down the toilet i'd say flush them and finish the job. quench this now.


PS: the back wall makes all the difference. it all clicks into place now. it's brilliant. :roll:
Last edited by DiM on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:46 pm

I disagree, if we're going to have to get a map about a butcher shop, then at least make it as good as it can be and develop the theme properly. This current map is not that, it's just the same old burger with new gravy.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby The Bison King on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:05 pm

natty dread wrote:I disagree, if we're going to have to get a map about a butcher shop, then at least make it as good as it can be and develop the theme properly. This current map is not that, it's just the same old burger with new gravy.

Yeah I think he was being sarcastic.

Maybe I'm just some dumb simpleton from the suburbs but I'm not seeing how the gameplay doesn't fit the theme. It's a butcher shop and the poster is of beef cuts. Done. This isn't a complicated concept I don't see why we have to make it one.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:16 pm

Well as graphics are the order of the day, you have my GP suggestions, here are some for graphics to try and get the next version looking more as it should.

Tiled wall - the tiles are to big, make the 25-50 smaller. This will give the poster a sense of size.
Paper background - bin this completely, you will never get this to work. It needs to be crisp with a sense of cleanliness.
Give the poster a nice frame - something in wood or metal but it needs to be clean and crisp.
Title - move to the middle (where the flies are) and give it a better font. Try this one. http://www.dafont.com/american-dream.font?fpp=50
Remove version 11 and what not. Not needed at all on the map.
Bonuses - make into a chalk board with prices. This will really help.
Sig - move to the bottom right of the poster itself and onto the tiles.
Little pieces of paper - when have you ever seen this in a butchers shop. All need to go and any relevant info goes onto the chalk board.
Bonus regions - have a look at splitting these apart. You have the room. Then you can put a meat texture over the whole thing or even a split up photo of a real cow. And lose the awful colours.
Army circles, unless you really need them, lose them.
Thats enough for now.

Game play side of things incase you missed them.
Bring in the other two legs like you did for the island map.
Lose flies, cow pat, grass.
Replace the grass with some scales and a normal 2 neutral attacked the same way as it is now.
Make the last two auto deploys normal bonuses with the 3 neutral on.
Remove all attack routes like tongue to grass.
Your fat barriers look OK but not too sure on the bonus numbers but they do look way off.

I know it is a lot to get your head around but it might be better to start from scratch as right now, the only thing that might be worth keeping is the cow itself.

These are bog standard images from the web but should give you an idea of how to make the poster itself look.
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or you can go artistic if you feel adventurous.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:17 pm

The Bison King wrote:
natty dread wrote:I disagree, if we're going to have to get a map about a butcher shop, then at least make it as good as it can be and develop the theme properly. This current map is not that, it's just the same old burger with new gravy.

Yeah I think he was being sarcastic.

Maybe I'm just some dumb simpleton from the suburbs but I'm not seeing how the gameplay doesn't fit the theme. It's a butcher shop and the poster is of beef cuts. Done. This isn't a complicated concept I don't see why we have to make it one.


Because that poster could just as well be on any wall. And there's things like flies and shit and grass - what do they have to do with butcher shops?

Frankly the current map image reminds me more of a page torn from a humour magazine and plastered on a toilet wall. There's nothing that says "butcher shop" on the map, it's just the same old cow map with some cosmetic upgrades.

The gameplay and graphics need to be consistent with the theme and support it. This is not the case here: where's there anything about butchery on this map? How does the gameplay reflect the profession of butchery? Maybe there could be some gameplay elements that would reward the player for "cutting" parts of the cow - I'm not sure how this would be implemented exactly, but that should be for the mapmaker to figure out. There could be territories like butcher knives here, that assault certain points of the cow. There could be a more elements of the butcher shop here - customers, the butcher himself, other meat products, the cash machine - stuff like that, to really bring the theme of a "butcher shop" together.

Because right now, the map is not of a butcher shop, it's just a cow. And as I recall, that's what the foundry foreman himself said was the problem with the map in the first place. Lackattack gave permission to create a map of a butcher shop, with the assistance and approval of the CA:s. That doesn't mean that lackattack's permission should be a free pass to ignore all design guidelines of the foundry, all ideals of thematic consistency. Those should still be followed. So if lack wants a map with a butcher shop theme, then the map should really be about a butcher shop, not just a random drawing of a cow on some random wall.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby The Bison King on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:40 pm

And there's things like flies and shit and grass - what do they have to do with butcher shops?

I agree that these territories should go, and be replaced with something like:

There could be territories like butcher knives here, that assault certain points of the cow.


These idea's however:
There could be a more elements of the butcher shop here - customers, the butcher himself, other meat products, the cash machine

I think are awful, and the same effect could easily be achieved by:

Instead of doing a mini map, try for a chalk board and instead of having bonuses, how about prices. So it would be
£6 Sirloin
£5 Rump
and so on.

Which I think is a fantastic idea!
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:59 pm

The Bison King wrote:I think are awful


Why?
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:08 pm

natty dread wrote:
The Bison King wrote:I think are awful


Why?

How could you possibly get a cashier and customers into this map? It's not about the butcher shop, it's about the image of a cow in his shop!
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:12 pm

Gillipig wrote:It's not about the butcher shop, it's about the image of a cow in his shop!


But without the butcher shop, the image of cow might as well be anywhere. Without the butcher shop theme, the map will again be just a cow, and I think it was made very clear before that "just a cow" is not going to pass.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby The Bison King on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:17 pm

natty dread wrote:
The Bison King wrote:I think are awful


Why?

Because It just sounds like taking the concept and running wild with it, into an area that no one really asked for. This map is about the cow. The butcher shop elements should support that, not the other way around.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:40 pm

natty dread wrote:
Gillipig wrote:It's not about the butcher shop, it's about the image of a cow in his shop!


But without the butcher shop, the image of cow might as well be anywhere. Without the butcher shop theme, the map will again be just a cow, and I think it was made very clear before that "just a cow" is not going to pass.

Plenty of suggestions have been made that would make this map enough butcher themed if implemented. Bringing in cashier and customers are just not a good idea!
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:40 pm

The Bison King wrote:
natty dread wrote:
The Bison King wrote:I think are awful


Why?

Because It just sounds like taking the concept and running wild with it, into an area that no one really asked for. This map is about the cow. The butcher shop elements should support that, not the other way around.


No, the map is supposed to be about a butcher shop that features an image of a cow. It was already decided way back that a map about "just a cow" is not acceptable. A map about a butcher shop is, and if that cow map is a part of a butcher shop then it has a legitimate framework around it.

I'm not saying it has to be done exactly as I've suggested, with cashiers and such, but there needs to be elements in both the gameplay and graphics that really support the "butcher shop" theme. I don't think that's "running wild" with anything, I see that as developing a consistent and viable theme, which should be required of all CC maps.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:47 pm

I think the post-it note scraps and the wall are a step in the right direction, but they all look a little too perfect.


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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Flapcake on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:03 pm

Rigth now its just a poster of a cow on a wall, the poster could be on any wall, in a kids room, a school, a supermarked ect. wheres the bucthershop, the slaughter bench, the knifes/axes, the blood ect. ? I see now diffrent ohter than the small notes and the tiles from the original image.
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:07 pm

Whenever I look at this thread I see a new post. If only all maps got as much attention as this one!!
Looking forward to what Dana does in his next update. I've seen a lot of good suggestions on how to make this map more "butchery". And some bad ones ;)!
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby thenobodies80 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:22 pm

Since it seems that we all agree about the butcher idea, I think that natty is right about "extend" a bit more the context, a simple wall isn't enough.
On the contrary represent a whole shop is too much, since it requires to resize the playable area and make it really small compared with the rest of the map.
But if dana wants to represent a butcher shop he can draw a counter (part of it is enough imo) or something like that and the playable map could be a sign
Or maybe a shop window? And bonuses could be special "offers" with prices, like koontz suggested.

I have something in my mind for a possible layout, but this week i'm really short with time so I don't have a way to draw something, maybe if i found 15 mins I'll draw a sketch on the paper and I'll post it here. But no promise for now.

Certainly the flies and the pat must go, they don't fit very well with the rest....right now I don't know what suggest to replace them. :-k

Right now I'm too tired and sick :sick: to think/draw something...just what i can suggest is to enlarge the represented area a bit to create more context and explain a bit more the theme.

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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby dana1971 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:41 pm

Wow where to start.

Natty Dread: I will fall off my chair if you ever like this map, because at it's core it is a simple dissection of a cow that tells people where their meat comes from.
But maybe one day I'll meat your approval. "No pun intended"

thenobodies80 wrote: let me state clear that I have also talked seriously with Lackattack and he is ok with this map if developed in the right way with the help of the CAs.

There has never been an intention to make a butcher shop map, the idea was and I believe approved, to make a map of a cow in a butcher shop setting. Please correct me if I'm wrong Thenobodies.

Fantastic comments from Koontz1973, I can work with those and especially like the chalk board idea listing the bonuses as prices.
I don't fully agree with all your suggestions but I like most of them, so I'll take it one step at a time and do what I can in the next draft.

In terms of the colors, the reason I put them in is so that you could tell what regions you needed, to get the bonuses clearly.
The cow itself needs to be clear and graphic so it's easy to play on. So I've stayed away from making it look photo-real.

Great comments from Bison King, and Gillipig too, and as always thanks for the help Thenobodies.
In fact thanks to everyone who has given me constructive feedback.

I was thinking of replacing the flies with a symbol of a delivery truck, like a logo for the people who made the map.
Replace the poo with a few bottles of milk, and I don't think having grass on the map is unrealistic. Consider it a little garnish to give the image that free range goodness ranchers want us consumers to have.

It terms of making it more butcher shop looking, There is one very easy thing you all seemed to over look that I could do to let people know the map was on the wall of a butcher shop.
Drum roll please..... Rename that map "Butcher Shop" or Butchers wall"

I will try thenobodies idea of adding a meat counter in the foreground, maybe some hanging meat too, but I don't want to clutter the map to much with window dressing just to sell the idea that it's in a butcher shop when the title will tell players all they need to know.

Anyway, a lot to think about.

Best Wishes,
Dana
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:17 pm

dana1971 wrote:Natty Dread: I will fall off my chair if you ever like this map, because at it's core it is a simple dissection of a cow that tells people where their meat comes from.
But maybe one day I'll meat your approval. "No pun intended"


You'll "meat" my approval simply by making a map with a consistent theme, that isn't just an excuse to have a map about a cow. A map where the gameplay and graphics are consistent with the theme.

dana1971 wrote:The cow itself needs to be clear and graphic so it's easy to play on. So I've stayed away from making it look photo-real.


It doesn't have to be photo-real, but it should look like a cow. You can make it look like a cow while still making it clear and easy to play on.

dana1971 wrote:I was thinking of replacing the flies with a symbol of a delivery truck, like a logo for the people who made the map.
Replace the poo with a few bottles of milk, and I don't think having grass on the map is unrealistic.


Ok, these ideas are all just more of the same - trying to do some cosmetic changes to keep the same basic map you have unchanged.

Nobodies called you the most open-minded mapmaker he's seen, and now's the good time to show it - show that you're open to feedback, open to making changes and not just sticking to what you have because you think it's perfect already. Show us that open-mindedness you were so lauded about.

Why would there be a piece of grass on a poster about cow cuttings in a butcher shop? "Free range" is a poor excuse - it's not something that's immediately obvious or intuitive to the players, it's just a bit too far-fetched. It's not immediately associable - players are not going to go "aha, the grass is there because it's free range, how clever", rather they'll be "grass, wtf is it doing in a butcher shop"?

As for bottles of milk - since when is milk being sold at a butcher? Butchers sell meat products. Have a meat counter there with sausages and such, those would be theme-appropriate. You'd have to make some gameplay changes to fit them in but you're going to have to do those anyway, because there's just no way you're going to keep the gameplay the same if you're going to properly develop the theme for this map.

Symbol of a delivery truck - that just seems too abstract. If it was an actual delivery truck, if you could somehow represent it as being outside the butcher shop, then it'd be ok. But you'd have to draw more of the butcher shop for that to work, and it'd mean making the map bigger. You may end up having to do that anyway, but a truck may be just a bit unfeasible.

dana1971 wrote:It terms of making it more butcher shop looking, There is one very easy thing you all seemed to over look that I could do to let people know the map was on the wall of a butcher shop.
Drum roll please..... Rename that map "Butcher Shop" or Butchers wall"


Ok yeah, that's fine and all, but that alone is not going to cut it. If you have to label something for people understand what it's about then you've failed - think of poorly made political cartoons.

You should be able to convey to players that the map is about a butcher shop even without them reading the title. The map should speak for itself, so to speak.


Anyway, looking forward to seeing some real progress on this one. I'm not against this map, but I want to see it developed properly, with a theme that is strong enough to stand on it's own, without relying on the novelty of "ha ha, there's a cow on this map".
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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby dana1971 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:18 am

Natty, as open minded as I am it is impossible to work in everyone's comments, and you are not the only one with comments, but I'll do what I can, and I have no expectation of being able to make everyone happy. All in all it has to be something I'm happy with.

In terms of your comment on the title explaining the butcher shop theme. Remember a door is just a door, until you put words on it like "office" or "rest room" then you know exactly where it goes and are able to put it into context.


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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:06 am

dana1971 wrote: thenobodies80 wrote: let me state clear that I have also talked seriously with Lackattack and he is ok with this map if developed in the right way with the help of the CAs.


There has never been an intention to make a butcher shop map, the idea was and I believe approved, to make a map of a cow in a butcher shop setting. Please correct me if I'm wrong Thenobodies.


Lackattack is ok with the subject of the map, leaving to the CAs the decisions about the development of the map in the right way following the current Foundry Guidelines/Standards.
What I asked to Lackattack is: "Are you ok with a map that have as subject a cow?"

The context/development wasn't discussed with him because it's up to the CAs to follow this and ensure that all the maps follow the same procedure/stadards/guidelines.
In fact we're discussing it right now, because it's in this way that the foundry should work.

Btw dana, check your inbox I've sent you a PM with a quick and ugly sketch. ;)

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Re: Prime Beef [Feb 26] page 21

Postby Gillipig on Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:10 am

One of the most important things you need to focus on is how you can get rid of the things that can't be on this map because it's now set in a butcher shop, without making the gameplay unbalanced with a lot of bottle necks. The cow pat, flies and grass needs to be replaced or we need to figure out another way of making it a balanced map!
I don't think you can realistically find "butchery" things to replace all of them! I think you need to set it up differently this time!
Here's a suggestion;
Bring in butcher knifes. Place these knifes on strategic places where you need another border and add a little comment in the legend describing how the knifes connects to each other. You would get the borders you want and it would fit the theme.
Another suggestion is to put blood stains on the places you want to connect. Same principle as the knifes only blood stains this time.
Or you could integrate them both ;).
Just some suggestions :).
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