Is the old guard dead?

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Is the old guard dead?

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:35 am

I just replaced in a game where there were only 2 players with more experience than me: victor and jonty. Edoc just became so frustrated that he left a game because of the new players.

Right now, the ranks are being filled faster than players can learn how the games used to be played.

My question for you is: is this a bad thing?

It seems the mafia community in this site used to be more vibrant, with a lot more n00bishness in earlier times. Is this a second birth f the community? Also, is it possible that the overall meta will change now?

I mean, bus driver and cult recruiter when I started were probably the 2 most common roles. Now I rarely see them. As new players join and get right to modding (a good thing IMO), the games can now evolve in a whole new direction.

Let me know what you think: real trend/statistical hiccup/temporary trend?
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby pmchugh on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:58 am

Lol to me you look like a new player as does pretty much everyone that plays here, even edoc with way more games than me is still not part of the "old guard" I think he started like 2 years after me. Before me there was the whole talapus, get toanked, skilltes and skoff crowd, I probably still look new to them. Nag, speisr and maybe freezie are the only players that I am aware were here before me that are still in any games.

People come and go, the place changes and people get used to it. People will always talk about old times being better, but hey we got 8 an rt person rt last night and the games are reasonably active. Page 5 of the archives for instance has much shorter games in terms of pages than page 1.

So I think you are right, the place is changing, it always is but this isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby pancakemix on Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:04 am

1. Never think this site has changed for good. People come and people go, then people come back. Take everywhere116 for example. He was gone nearly five years and just showed up again out of the blue. I'm personally on sabbatical, but I plan on making a comeback in the near future (winkwinknudgenudge). Don't forget that no changes are truly permanent here.

2. I'll agree, there have been a lot more new players. Bad thing? No. It's a natural following to having gotten a dedicated forum and thus more exposure to the "Ooh, what's this?" forum-goer.They'll develop (I hope) and we'll be better for it.

3. Change in setup is always good. If the games are always the same setup, it gets boring. That's why I experiment with new roles and mechanics in all of my games.The games that stretch the imagination are the ones that get remembered.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby BGtheBrain on Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:42 am

I think the problem is the # of games.
I think there should be a list of players who are "certified" as mafia players.

Anyone who wants to play, needs to complete a noob training game. Upon that, they are "certified" and can then join other games.

When I first started, I had no clue what I was doing and joined a few games. Spread myself thin and got so confused.
However, I did do a noob game, just not until after my first 2 or 3 games.

Right now, I feel the forum has more games than users, but more importantly tons of new people who have less of a clue than I do.

Thoughts on a certified list and a "recurring" noob game?
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby Serbia on Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:54 am

I iz guard of old.
Look has at fircoal's sig.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby strike wolf on Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:54 am

This is a bit of a down time considering some of the old players are less active and there are a bunch of new players who have not yet gotten a feel for the game but among them there are some that with experience should turn out to be pretty good mafia players so I chart this down as a temporary thing.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby pmchugh on Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:07 am

I think most of you are delusional. pancake things do change permanently, things will never be like they were 4 years ago. People may come back, but they wont come back into the same community. And also this isn't a bad thing, some of the old guard are annoying or boring lurkers or mindless bandwagonners or completely intolerant to new players who make mistakes. There is good and bad about how things are.

BGtheBrain wrote:I think the problem is the # of games.
I think there should be a list of players who are "certified" as mafia players.

Anyone who wants to play, needs to complete a noob training game. Upon that, they are "certified" and can then join other games.

When I first started, I had no clue what I was doing and joined a few games. Spread myself thin and got so confused.
However, I did do a noob game, just not until after my first 2 or 3 games.

Right now, I feel the forum has more games than users, but more importantly tons of new people who have less of a clue than I do.

Thoughts on a certified list and a "recurring" noob game?


This is a pretty viable way forward for mafia. Mafiascum (did anyone see it disappeared?) has a structure like that where newbie's play C9 games (with 2 vets) before being allowed elsewhere.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:28 am

pmchugh wrote:This is a pretty viable way forward for mafia. Mafiascum (did anyone see it disappeared?) has a structure like that where newbie's play C9 games (with 2 vets) before being allowed elsewhere.

Back when I use to Mod Mafia games, I had a list of 'Veteran players' who had proven themselves either in my game or in one of the other two games usually offered, and these folks would get dibs on sign-ups. Then I would try to incorporate 2-4 'newer' players as test players, hoping they would turn out alright. I also didn't necessarily have 'open sign-ups'---basically players signed up to be a part of the pool from which I would choose from, no guaranteed spot.


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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby nagerous on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:07 pm

The old guard died over 2 years ago and when I say the old guard I mean those like me who used to play mafia in the OT forum ;-)
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby pmchugh on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:55 pm

nagerous wrote:The old guard died over 2 years ago and when I say the old guard I mean those like me who used to play mafia in the OT forum ;-)


>Games started around 6 years ago
>Started playing 4 years ago tomorrow
>Still considered new guy
>Point proven

:lol:

AndyDufresne wrote:
pmchugh wrote:This is a pretty viable way forward for mafia. Mafiascum (did anyone see it disappeared?) has a structure like that where newbie's play C9 games (with 2 vets) before being allowed elsewhere.

Back when I use to Mod Mafia games, I had a list of 'Veteran players' who had proven themselves either in my game or in one of the other two games usually offered, and these folks would get dibs on sign-ups. Then I would try to incorporate 2-4 'newer' players as test players, hoping they would turn out alright. I also didn't necessarily have 'open sign-ups'---basically players signed up to be a part of the pool from which I would choose from, no guaranteed spot.


--Andy


Interesting, what did you do if one of the new guys didn't post much? Did anyone complain about rejection?
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:58 pm

If one of the non-veteran people proved to be a bust, they tended to get weeded out pretty fast from the game, so the veterans could play amongst the selves---survival of the fittest style I think. ha. But for the most part, I think a 70-30 mix of Veterans to Newbies worked pretty well for games, giving people a chance to A. Experience new players, and B. Give new players experience in games with more veteran folks.

If I run a mafia game again, I'll probably do a 'sign-up pool' again, since it is what I am use to.


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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby safariguy5 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:01 pm

When you talk about old guard, I would say that it's like comparing different eras of any professional sports league. The rules and norms were different back in their time. Games had tight day/night deadlines, NV games were much rarer, and the role probabilities were different.

I mean, I remember some solid players (Squirrel's Hat, duday, Captain Walrus, aage, etc.) and some pretty crappy ones (colton, wercool, vodean). No different than what it's like now. It's more relevant to chart player progress and improvement.

I mean, I remember when tails was as green as some of our new players now, but he's turned into a very solid player. Celebrate player progress instead of trying to compare "eras" that had different conditions.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby pmchugh on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:32 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:If one of the non-veteran people proved to be a bust, they tended to get weeded out pretty fast from the game, so the veterans could play amongst the selves---survival of the fittest style I think. ha. But for the most part, I think a 70-30 mix of Veterans to Newbies worked pretty well for games, giving people a chance to A. Experience new players, and B. Give new players experience in games with more veteran folks.

If I run a mafia game again, I'll probably do a 'sign-up pool' again, since it is what I am use to.


--Andy


I think things were less complicated in the ancient "era" that you modded in. It is less clear who is a trusted player, even people who have been here for years disappear often or post little. The main difference now is definitely the speed games are played at.

This game lasted 41 pages and one week, there are 3 games on page one of the archive of roughly the same length and they took on average over a month. Even games with 100+ pages didn't take a month when you played :lol:
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:10 pm

Saf wrote:I mean, I remember when tails was as green as some of our new players now, but he's turned into a very solid player. Celebrate player progress instead of trying to compare "eras" that had different conditions.


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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby Iron Butterfly on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:39 pm

Progress not perfection.

You cant go home again.

My first game I claimed cop my first post and then edited. LOL part of my learning curve. I like to think I have improved. I play to have fun. Stop the elitist bs...geez.

You can only learn this game by playing it. Its a lot like CC. The higher ranks hate noobs...because they play like noobs and do stupid noob stuff...all the while forgeting why noobs do what they do. There not use to the mind games, pschology and the sublties vets take for granted.

Edocil can be a tad self important at times, which is why I killed him night one when being a baddie for the first time. :lol:

Seriously the game of Mafia is what it is. Nothing more and nothing less.

The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby strike wolf on Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:25 pm

there's more than two eras of mafia really. these are the time lines that I kind of distinguish.

Era 1: Players like Mandy, Wicked, AK_Iceman, AndyDufresne, Nagerous, LSU Tiger Josh, Nark, Got Tonkaed etc. (about the time I had my first games)

Era 2: I think this is more when players like Safari and Edocsil came into play.

Era 2.5: I think would be around the time I started to become more of a regular in the mafia forums as well as when players like Commander9, Vio, Tails and a couple others started playing.

Era 3: would be around now. We're getting a lot of new players signing up for games right now.

Someone who's been more regular mafia player over the years could probably come up with a more accurate list...there's a lot of people i could consider from Era 1 but it would be too long of a list to get into right now.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby safariguy5 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:40 pm

strike wolf wrote:there's more than two eras of mafia really. these are the time lines that I kind of distinguish.

Era 1: Players like Mandy, Wicked, AK_Iceman, AndyDufresne, Nagerous, LSU Tiger Josh, Nark, Got Tonkaed etc. (about the time I had my first games)

Era 2: I think this is more when players like Safari and Edocsil came into play.

Era 2.5: I think would be around the time I started to become more of a regular in the mafia forums as well as when players like Commander9, Vio, Tails and a couple others started playing.

Era 3: would be around now. We're getting a lot of new players signing up for games right now.

Someone who's been more regular mafia player over the years could probably come up with a more accurate list...there's a lot of people i could consider from Era 1 but it would be too long of a list to get into right now.

Aye, I'm not familiar with Era 1 players as much, but you'd want to add the big time mods (Daring Overlord, Aimless, and probably some of the more notorious people like NES).

The memorable players from Era 2 would be the ones I listed in the earlier post plus maybe a few others.

I'd agree about 2.5 and 3 more or less, if someone were to run a stats project for college or something, I think that a good indicator of forum activity would be the number of games active per set time period (month or so) over the years. Maybe weight them by the number of players per game. Tracking the rise and fall of number of games over time might help us figure out approximately who joined when.

I will say that I think the cutoff between Era 2.5 and 3 would be when Mafia Games were moved to their own forum. Definitely attracted more people, although there was a bit of a delay of a few months.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby shieldgenerator7 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:02 pm

That means I'm from Era 2.5! Yeah!

I signed-up for Com9's UNKNOWN and PCM's Chris Nolan while it was still part of the OT forum, but didn't actually play until Era 3. So I'm one of the first of Era 3
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby edocsil on Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:08 pm

Heh. I can be a dick. I don't consider myself of the Old Guard.

That being said, the older guys are really having a hard time teaching all the newcomers and its getting a bit trying. I think things are now on the upswing, but the community used to have a bit more, character, a few years ago. Duno, it is hard to explain.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby jgordon1111 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:21 pm

I think part of the thing might be,the newer players like myself dont follow the protocols you guys are used to. And I think it may be the cause of some of what is happening in the new games. Dont get upset with us, we are learning and trying it a different way.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby everywhere116 on Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:01 am

Era 1, who was from era 1? Me, Fircoal, Aimless, Xenhu, Coolalone, PCM, Tellvania, The1exile, VGMaster, spiesr, mandalorian, AK Iceman, gosh, so many.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby pancakemix on Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:47 am

jgordon1111 wrote:I think part of the thing might be,the newer players like myself dont follow the protocols you guys are used to. And I think it may be the cause of some of what is happening in the new games. Dont get upset with us, we are learning and trying it a different way.


This is also fairly true. Most games on Day 1 end up being a newb lynch because they wanted to vote no lynch to start things off. At the very least, you'll get a newb to claim out of it.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby Iron Butterfly on Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:34 am

strike wolf wrote:there's more than two eras of mafia really. these are the time lines that I kind of distinguish.

Era 1: Players like Mandy, Wicked, AK_Iceman, AndyDufresne, Nagerous, LSU Tiger Josh, Nark, Got Tonkaed etc. (about the time I had my first games)

Era 2: I think this is more when players like Safari and Edocsil came into play.

Era 2.5: I think would be around the time I started to become more of a regular in the mafia forums as well as when players like Commander9, Vio, Tails and a couple others started playing.

Era 3: would be around now. We're getting a lot of new players signing up for games right now.

Someone who's been more regular mafia player over the years could probably come up with a more accurate list...there's a lot of people i could consider from Era 1 but it would be too long of a list to get into right now.

Could someone please explain why it is so important compartmentalize? So 10 years from now I can look back with pride on the fact that I belonged to era 3 because some noob player in era 10 was an annoying pain in the ass?
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby pmchugh on Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:01 am

thebutterfly wrote:

Heh people like to identify but I don't think anyone will discriminate based on era, well not any more than they do now ;)

thewolf wrote:

As for your groupings, the old eras are cover way more time than the new ones lol. Era 1 or era 2 needs split up.
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Re: Is the old guard dead?

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:28 am

Iron Butterfly wrote:
strike wolf wrote:there's more than two eras of mafia really. these are the time lines that I kind of distinguish.

Era 1: Players like Mandy, Wicked, AK_Iceman, AndyDufresne, Nagerous, LSU Tiger Josh, Nark, Got Tonkaed etc. (about the time I had my first games)

Era 2: I think this is more when players like Safari and Edocsil came into play.

Era 2.5: I think would be around the time I started to become more of a regular in the mafia forums as well as when players like Commander9, Vio, Tails and a couple others started playing.

Era 3: would be around now. We're getting a lot of new players signing up for games right now.

Someone who's been more regular mafia player over the years could probably come up with a more accurate list...there's a lot of people i could consider from Era 1 but it would be too long of a list to get into right now.

Could someone please explain why it is so important compartmentalize? So 10 years from now I can look back with pride on the fact that I belonged to era 3 because some noob player in era 10 was an annoying pain in the ass?

There are 2 main purposes. Purpose 1 is to show who has been around the longest.
The second would be to help understand the history of the mafia forum. Games here are quite different than the games on mafiascum. So, if you wanted to test a hypothesis to see if there was divergent evolution or they started differently, you could ask players from the different eras and test your hypothesis. When I started, busdriver seemed like the most common role, now they are slowly being faded out it seems. Also, games started as generally unthemed and have worked to where even games with no theme (Rated M or Hectic Eclectic for instance) are still themed.
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