Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby visgoths on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:18 pm

I reported a cheater and he was found guilty due to overwhelming evidence to support this claim. The moderators gave him a warning and then proceeded to attack the person who made the claim. I have to say BGtheBrain I am a little disappointed that as a cheating/abuse moderator you are making arguments to support Peruvian Boatman. Also, one flaw with your logic - whether I am clueless is more a matter of subjective opinion than fact. Additionally, the person that posted that I was clueless lost so it made no sense. Peruvian Boatman has been proven to cheat, so claims in his ratings that suggest he was perpetrating secret diplomacy carry greater weight.

how have I acted? I have made a very rationale argument for why I think the current enforcement is weak. I think what is more evident is that the moderators don't like the criticism and other contributors who criticize my reaction to the verdict have a permissive attitude towards cheating. You can characterize me anyway you want but the record stands. Peruvian Boatman cheated.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby BGtheBrain on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:25 pm

visgoths wrote:I reported a cheater and he was found guilty due to overwhelming evidence to support this claim. The moderators gave him a warning and then proceeded to attack the person who made the claim.

False. Multiple people (Mods and not mods) have explained the process to you. Clarifying a situation is not attacking you.

visgoths wrote:I have to say BGtheBrain I am a little disappointed that as a cheating/abuse moderator you are making arguments to support Peruvian Boatman.

I havent defended him, I am saying you have ZERO evidence he has committed SD more than once.

visgoths wrote:Also, one flaw with your logic - whether I am clueless is more a matter of subjective opinion than fact. Additionally, the person that posted that I was clueless lost so it made no sense.

Thats the whole point..... ratings are subjective opinion. Like when you say, "Look at his ratings, hes a cheater"

visgoths wrote:Peruvian Boatman has been proven to cheat, so claims in his ratings that suggest he was perpetrating secret diplomacy carry greater weight.

So if I get one speeding ticket, I must always speed?

visgoths wrote:how have I acted?

Rude, whiny, I guess the correct word would be "clueless"
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby visgoths on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:58 pm

and your characterizing me as clueless is another one of your clarifications, not attacking, right? Again, as a moderator I would think you would hold yourself to a higher standard and stay to the merits of your argument instead of denigrating a person that reported cheating.

Again, I reported a cheater and as a moderator you are saying I am a whiner and clueless. You sure you're qualified to be a moderator of cheating and abuse forum? The only thing that is certain in this thread is what was proven about Peruvian Boatman; that he cheated.

if you anyone has taken an exception to my criticism of the rules - why don't you ALL chill out.

I never said that Peruvian Boatman ratings proved he was a cheater. My point was that it would be ignorant to think they have no bearing on one's reputation. Considering that he was caught cheating, it is no leap to believe I that he has done this before and therefore the moderators should take a closer look at his ratings. Otherwise, what is the purpose of the ratings - that is what they are there for, no?
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby SirSebstar on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:39 pm

no..
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby Barney Rubble on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:53 pm

Maybe just leave then ?? People that try to help you and explain things to you are Jerks ,... etc.. KA is unqualified ,The mods are to soft ,Now BG is picking on you instead of what Banning the Peruvian for life or what ??? .Want CC to mail you a piece of his ass?? Rules are in place they were followed Thats it end of story ....BG is probably closer to the mark with his commenting on whining.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby deathcomesrippin on Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:24 pm

Barney Rubble wrote:Maybe just leave then ?? People that try to help you and explain things to you are Jerks ,... etc.. KA is unqualified ,The mods are to soft ,Now BG is picking on you instead of what Banning the Peruvian for life or what ??? .Want CC to mail you a piece of his ass?? Rules are in place they were followed Thats it end of story ....BG is probably closer to the mark with his commenting on whining.



I don't normally do this but.....

+1
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby Evil Semp on Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:25 pm

So that's where I left my soap box.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby eddie2 on Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:44 pm

Evil Semp wrote:So that's where I left my soap box.


lol as long as you didnt bend over to pick it up evil.....
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby eddie2 on Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:59 pm

well visgoths what can i say i just read the game chat of the game in ?..

no. 1
revealing of positions and troup count in a fog game is seriously frowned upon, some also class it as cheating....
Game 10582259
2012-03-02 19:14:20 - visgoths: im afraid it might be too late.
2012-03-03 23:46:12 - visgoths: Green, pink has 3 on bitlis and 6 on erzurum.

2012-03-06 23:51:07 - visgoths: alright, I landed on British Kuwait. Hope I can hold it. he's got 30 on jersualem


no. 2
mo since no formal truce was made in game chat by you and the player in ? you could say it looks like you were involved in s/d.. it even looks like the 2 of you could of attacked what was said in the pm, but since fog that wont be seen till end of game. and by your reaction i think the mods should do to you as you want done to others if the log shows that attack.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby jefjef on Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:57 pm

visgoths wrote:He doesn't even have to forfeit in the game that he tried to cheat? This is so weak. If you look at his ratings he has been accused of cheating before. He is a habitual violator. I don't have it out for the guy - I just think the enforcement is weak considering how blatantly he was caught.

Secret Diplomacy is a major violation and yet the violator gets only a warning? This is so weak.


Proper procedure was followed and the C&A team patiently and clearly explained the warning to you. It is an escalated punishment system. If he gets caught doing it again then he gets a nice web site ban. (BTW: Some people actually don't realize SD is a violation or understand what SD is.)

Thanks for reporting it! =D>

Now please stop by my wall and I'll show you how the foe function works.
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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drunkmonkey wrote:I'm filing a C&A report right now. Its nice because they have a drop-down for "jefjef".
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby eddie2 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:48 am

even better should your ass be banned as well..
eddie2 wrote:http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=10682509
2012-03-01 01:07:58 - visgoths: alakim saalam...you baathist dogs get out of Nasyria...Allah is Shia!
:mrgreen:


you were taking the piss out of a religion in this game this is against site rules and is classed as bigotry,
Bigotry includes racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia/sexual orientation bashing, religion bashing, lack of religion bashing, or wishing violence on any group of people, etc.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby cookie0117 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:01 am

visgoths wrote:"chill out", " take a deep breath" - I interpret those comments to reflect a sense that cheating is no big deal. We obviously differ on this translation if you are speaking for everyone except me in this thread. In most games when you are caught cheating you are disqualified so forgive me if my posts reflected my surprise that the offender was left off with just a warning. I understand now that there is a process and warnings are given for first time offenders. The people on the thread who feel differently are welcome to their opinions but shouldn't criticize or tell me to chill. We obviously have a different idea about what rules mean. I think the rules are soft on cheaters.


I simple ment you were beginning to get quite personal in your attack on the mods, all that will happen is you will receive a forum ban as the one think that is taken more seriously than cheating in this game ( yes it is only a game!!) is PERSONALLY attacking people. Also ranting for ranting sake generally gets you no where apart from on the other side of a much larger rant. As appears to be happening...

The person was punsihed for breaking the rules inline with the rules. I know the rules in detail take some getting used to on this site as they are not recorded in full in one place. In future you will get alot more support for any cause you wish to fight if you try not to take eveyone on at once from the start.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:36 am

cookie0117 wrote:The person was punsihed for breaking the rules inline with the rules. I know the rules in detail take some getting used to on this site as they are not recorded in full in one place.


You can always read the Community Guidelines 'Rule Enforcement' section, and also our good old Rules Page.


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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby cookie0117 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:47 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
cookie0117 wrote:The person was punsihed for breaking the rules inline with the rules. I know the rules in detail take some getting used to on this site as they are not recorded in full in one place.


You can always read the Community Guidelines 'Rule Enforcement' section, and also our good old Rules Page.


--Andy


I am aware of most of the rules and dos/donts, my comment was more intented to mean there is no place where very rule is explained in detail i.e. the full CC rule book, listing punishments and procedures. The basic rules page says SD is not permitted but it does not tell you how it will be delt with.

If that was added somewhere it might help prevent some of these situation and also help with transparency of the C & A department
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby eddie2 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:10 pm

cookie0117 wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
cookie0117 wrote:The person was punsihed for breaking the rules inline with the rules. I know the rules in detail take some getting used to on this site as they are not recorded in full in one place.


You can always read the Community Guidelines 'Rule Enforcement' section, and also our good old Rules Page.


--Andy


I am aware of most of the rules and dos/donts, my comment was more intented to mean there is no place where very rule is explained in detail i.e. the full CC rule book, listing punishments and procedures. The basic rules page says SD is not permitted but it does not tell you how it will be delt with.

If that was added somewhere it might help prevent some of these situation and also help with transparency of the C & A department


rofl you forgot the most important part.. community guidelines say 1 thing. q and a says another thing(in the help section.) and the rules another.. whenever a update to a rule happens they only ever change one of the above.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:18 pm

cookie0117 wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
cookie0117 wrote:The person was punsihed for breaking the rules inline with the rules. I know the rules in detail take some getting used to on this site as they are not recorded in full in one place.


You can always read the Community Guidelines 'Rule Enforcement' section, and also our good old Rules Page.


--Andy


I am aware of most of the rules and dos/donts, my comment was more intented to mean there is no place where very rule is explained in detail i.e. the full CC rule book, listing punishments and procedures. The basic rules page says SD is not permitted but it does not tell you how it will be delt with.

If that was added somewhere it might help prevent some of these situation and also help with transparency of the C & A department


The Rules page doesn't talk much about enforcement, since it doesn't need to. Go to the Community Guidelines, where I linked if you would scan it and give it a once over, and you can see enforcement in detail.


--Andy
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby jimdugan8 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:28 pm

Is it legal to intentionally miss turns to get deferred troops? I'm in a game with a freemium member who went first and did this. In checkng his game history he has a long history of making it a practice to miss one sometimes two rounds in a row. This is a HUGE flaw in the game and I'm guessing it's been brought up before, but the powers that be have decided to let it be.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby SirSebstar on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:43 pm

jimdugan8 wrote:Is it legal to intentionally miss turns to get deferred troops? I'm in a game with a freemium member who went first and did this. In checkng his game history he has a long history of making it a practice to miss one sometimes two rounds in a row. This is a HUGE flaw in the game and I'm guessing it's been brought up before, but the powers that be have decided to let it be.

most modestly good players know that it is very rare that defferred troops are key to winning in regular games. even more players will not play someone with a low percentage on turns taken.
here is the official responce
28. Why do people get extra troops when they miss turns?

The fact is that things come up in real life and many people cannot reach a computer every single day. People who missed a turn are not receiving any bonus, only the troops they would have normally received. Getting the troops for turns missed encourages people to return and continue playing the game, which is one the most important things. A decent player will be able to keep track of how many missed troops an opponent can add, and act strategically to counter the extra troops.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby jimdugan8 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:46 pm

I understand it, it's just that it creates a way for players to manipulate the system. And it slows the game down. I will definitely being adding this player to my foe list. Maybe a better solution would be for the player to get the deferred troops, but only after they've completed their turn. This way they can deploy the troops, but not use them in an offensive manner.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby SirSebstar on Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:23 pm

jimdugan8 wrote:I understand it, it's just that it creates a way for players to manipulate the system. And it slows the game down. I will definitely being adding this player to my foe list. Maybe a better solution would be for the player to get the deferred troops, but only after they've completed their turn. This way they can deploy the troops, but not use them in an offensive manner.

eh.. they only get the troops after they attack phase has ended.... so what you sugest has already been done...
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby danfrank on Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:45 pm

Justified or not , it is your prerogative to miss turns. CC`s only course of action to prevent this type of behavior was to add your turn attendance percentage to a players profile.

Rarely do i miss as a strategic ploy. In fact it is probably closer to never, I mainly miss because my timing is off in 24 hr games. I try to group all those turns after 9 est. At this point in my CC career , if i am in a speed game and i know i`m doomed , i`ll just DEADBEAT. Theres a tag for that in the useless rating system. This isn`t ebay , players aren`t trying to sell me something. Therefore , i can careless if your a 5.0 , 4.8 or 2.3 .

I have missed alot of turns , according to my profile i miss 3 percent of my turns. By the numbers , I estimate i have taken about 100,000 turns and have missed ( according to cc ) approximately 3000 turns give or take 499 .

The best advice i can give to you is , Try to attack the bonuses if one is held , or take as many terts as you can to lower deployment and deferred troops before the players next turn.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby visgoths on Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:40 am

Rule #2: No secret diplomacy

Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults. Secret diplomacy can be hard to prove, but if you suspect it you should leave the players in question appropriate ratings. If you feel certain about players engaging in secret diplomacy consider reporting them in the Cheating & Abuse Reports forum by posting a new topic.

None of this was secret and it was all in game chat. How is this cheating? Eddie, 3002 posts? really ? Don't you get tired of this? Was my criticism really that egregious? I think it was constructive criticism but a few of you have nothing better to do and can't take criticism. I realize this thread will go on ad nauseam but figured I should respond to your accusation. Post a formal complaint if you think I've broken the rules. If I get warned it probably has more to do with the fact that your moderator friends are bitter about my criticism than having anything to do with rules. Get outside, go for a run, live life a little...maybe when you're an old man - maybe you can say you did something other than post on cc.

eddie2 wrote:well visgoths what can i say i just read the game chat of the game in ?..

no. 1
revealing of positions and troup count in a fog game is seriously frowned upon, some also class it as cheating....
Game 10582259
2012-03-02 19:14:20 - visgoths: im afraid it might be too late.
2012-03-03 23:46:12 - visgoths: Green, pink has 3 on bitlis and 6 on erzurum.

2012-03-06 23:51:07 - visgoths: alright, I landed on British Kuwait. Hope I can hold it. he's got 30 on jersualem


no. 2
mo since no formal truce was made in game chat by you and the player in ? you could say it looks like you were involved in s/d.. it even looks like the 2 of you could of attacked what was said in the pm, but since fog that wont be seen till end of game. and by your reaction i think the mods should do to you as you want done to others if the log shows that attack.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby TheForgivenOne on Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:48 am

Seriously? What do you expect us to do? Outright ban people off the site for something like this? If we did that, this site would be MUCH smaller than it is. Kicking the person out of 1 is going overboard. There are naive people here that probably didn't read the rules when they joined, and this would also cause a bigger workload for our Administrators (we only have 3), as they are the only ones with powers to do such a thing. They have a big enough workload as it is, they don't need it any bigger. It could also outright make another player lose a game because of it. Example- Player X,Y,Z are left. Player X is leading it, and player Y, relatively new, posts on Z's wall to help weaken him. Suddenly, he's kicked out of the game, and player X has an easier path to victory. Many people in this thread have explained to you how our escalating punishment works. First SD= a warning, second time = 1 week website ban, third time = 1 month, fourth = permaban.

If you clearly think this isn't harsh enough as it is, as people have said, make a Suggestion in the Suggestions forum. I happen to moderate that area. If it garners enough support, I can submit it towards the Webmaster, and he can contemplate whether he wants to implement it or not.

You also have to consider team games (mainly 2v2v2v2). Should the whole team be kicked out, even though only one person asked for the Diplomacy secretly? If not, it also creates Consequences in the game itself, as his partner now receives all of his territories and spoils.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby visgoths on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:22 am

Forgivenone, your point is well taken. I appreciate the work you all do. When I posted my criticism I did not realize there was a protocol for enforcement. Understanding this now my criticism should have been directed to the enforcement punishment and not the moderator since I felt a warning was weak for someone clearly caught for cheating.
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Re: Cheating & Abuse Enforcement

Postby jimdugan8 on Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:09 pm

Not sure if this has ever been brought up about this player, but I'm in a game with a guy who plays two account. coolbean04 and cindykat are at best two peole engaging in secret diplomacy, at worst he/she is using two accounts. Every game coolbean04 plays cindykat is also in, every game coolbean04 wins he's taken cindykat out last, and every game cindykat gets a bonus and just stacks, eventually just protecting coolbean04's rearguard. Dude's got rank they don't deserve.
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