Easter: The Greatest Love Story Ever Told

[Army of GOD]

ITT: we make unfounded claims that the world would be worse/better off without Christianity.

[BigBallinStalin]

Humans are only worthless because we have chosen to sin. God created us as perfect beings and desires a personal relationship with us. He's not demanding that we be groveling servants because that's not what he has in store for us in eternity.

How is original sin my own choice?

What is a sin?

[BigBallinStalin]

ITT: we make unfounded claims that the world would be worse/better off without Christianity.

I'll assuage you to death with Saxi sausage if you disagree or agree.

[Army of GOD]

ITT: we make unfounded claims that the world would be worse/better off without Christianity.

I'll assuage you to death with Saxi sausage if you disagree or agree.

Having a German grandma and a Polish grandpa, I ingest brauts like air.

[patches70]

1.
Where are you getting this individualism from? The entire central point of western religions is that humans are worthless pieces of shit who need to constantly grovel before a higher power, or suffer for eternity.

The whole concept, that you're tainted from birth, condemned to death as it were, and no action you take can ever save you, except for admitting your worthlessness and begging god to forgive your imagined crimes. This is the most extreme form of dictatorship imaginable.
What are the powers of the state or the priest compared to this? Any form of human dictatorship is vastly preferable as at least your suffering is limited by death. Not so with god though, he is there forever. Grovel or burn. Greatest love story indeed.

Your understanding is lacking.

Remember back to the days before Jesus. There, the individual could not, was not allowed to commune with God. Whatever God that individual may have worshiped. From Zeus, to Jupiter, to Isis, to Mithra or whatever you wish to look at.

The Pharaohs along with their priests interpreted the word of God. The average Egyptian wasn't even allowed to learn to read hieroglyphs let alone have a relationship with their God.
The Greeks had to defer to an oracle.
The Jews were not allowed to set foot into the holiest of holy's, only the high priest could do that.
The Pope's of old told the flock what God wanted, read from Bibles written in Latin where the flock had no ability or knowledge to even read. It was punishable by death to write the Holy book into any other language that the masses could read themselves.
The Romans replaced God with The State.
The Pharisees strode around the cities telling who was and who was not righteous. Interpreting ill fate as punishment from God and demanding sacrifice to make amends while not even understanding the true wisdom of their own holy books.
Religious leaders of then and even now issue orders, Fatwas, edicts and expect the believers to obey without question as if individuals had no intellect of their own.

Jesus changed all that. But those in religious power were not easily swayed to relinquish that power.

Jesus taught that each individual, sinner or saint, righteous or not, could have a personal relationship with God. Jesus taught that that even the lowest of those in life were like Kings to God and the Kings were like the lowliest of servants before the Creator.
Jesus taught that it was the spirit of Mosaic law that mattered, not a strict, rigid adherence to the letter with no thought of circumstance and just plain bad fate. Would you not pull your <ass> (donkey) from the pit even if it were the Sabbath?

Jesus taught a new way to look at life, a new way that at the time was truly mind shattering. To treat people, even if they were not of your tribe, of your land, gentile or Jew, treat them all as you would have yourself treated.
Jesus did not come to topple Kings and Empires. He came to free our minds.

We today cannot appreciate that message for the truly awe inspiring difference of thought that the people of those times had. The very idea of a "Good Samaritan" or the story of Jesus and the Roman Centurion would have been beyond troubling to the people of the day. The message that even the hated Roman could have a relationship with the very God that the Jews worshiped, that the same promise God made to the chosen people was extended to all of the Earth if they but understood the wisdom. Because the Pharisees of the time did not understand that truth, that wisdom that promise was extended to all the peoples of the Earth.

It is not irrational to want to work out differences between people, societies, cultures, individuals without bloodshed and violence.

It is not irrational to treat people fairly, honestly and justly.

It is not irrational to see people not like yourself and understand that they are in many ways the same as you.

It is not irrational to love, to show kindness.

Where do you think these things came from?
Who do you think taught this message at a time and place in history where it could actually spread across the globe?

Even the vast majority of the great thinkers of the Renaissance era were deeply religious and yet they had the courage to pursue their God given gifts of intellect and art despite possible punishment from the religious leaders of the day. Where do you think the basis of their courage came from?

That despite what the Pope may say, or the Iman, or the Rabbi, or the preacher may say, those individuals understood that we were all men looked at the same by God as Jesus taught. That even if they were to have their lives taken or their freedom stripped, that they would be vindicated by God and by history in the end.

Look at the most evil of men in history and see what they have in common. The complete lack of acknowledgment of the rights of the individual. That the State, in whatever form it may be, knows better what the people need than the individuals themselves. That those same human beings in power know better morality than the individual could know themselves.

Jesus taught us a better way to view ourselves. A view not at all widely held during his time and not widely held enough in our age.

It is the greatest love story ever told. And it changed the world in ways that those who are blind with prejudice or ill informed perception could never understand.

[Army of GOD]

Patches, you're excluding a lot of pre-Christian religions, including, but not limited to:

1. Hinduism
2. Buddhism
3. Shintoism
4. Indigenous beliefs and religions throughout the world

[patches70]

Patches, you're excluding a lot of pre-Christian religions, including, but not limited to:

1. Hinduism
2. Buddhism
3. Shintoism
4. Indigenous beliefs and religions throughout the world

Of course.

The bible tells of when Jesus was born and his very early life as a child. Then he disappears and returns in his late 20's. People wonder where Jesus was in that time between.

Some believe that Jesus traveled as a boy and young man. That he experienced many cultures that were not widely known or understood and when he returned he brought all that knowledge with him and taught a new way to look at life.

[Baron Von PWN]

1.
Where are you getting this individualism from? The entire central point of western religions is that humans are worthless pieces of shit who need to constantly grovel before a higher power, or suffer for eternity.

The whole concept, that you're tainted from birth, condemned to death as it were, and no action you take can ever save you, except for admitting your worthlessness and begging god to forgive your imagined crimes. This is the most extreme form of dictatorship imaginable.
What are the powers of the state or the priest compared to this? Any form of human dictatorship is vastly preferable as at least your suffering is limited by death. Not so with god though, he is there forever. Grovel or burn. Greatest love story indeed.

Your understanding is lacking.

Remember back to the days before Jesus. There, the individual could not, was not allowed to commune with God. Whatever God that individual may have worshiped. From Zeus, to Jupiter, to Isis, to Mithra or whatever you wish to look at.

The Pharaohs along with their priests interpreted the word of God. The average Egyptian wasn't even allowed to learn to read hieroglyphs let alone have a relationship with their God.
The Greeks had to defer to an oracle.
The Jews were not allowed to set foot into the holiest of holy's, only the high priest could do that.
The Pope's of old told the flock what God wanted, read from Bibles written in Latin where the flock had no ability or knowledge to even read. It was punishable by death to write the Holy book into any other language that the masses could read themselves.
The Romans replaced God with The State.
The Pharisees strode around the cities telling who was and who was not righteous. Interpreting ill fate as punishment from God and demanding sacrifice to make amends while not even understanding the true wisdom of their own holy books.
Religious leaders of then and even now issue orders, Fatwas, edicts and expect the believers to obey without question as if individuals had no intellect of their own.

Jesus changed all that. But those in religious power were not easily swayed to relinquish that power.

Jesus taught that each individual, sinner or saint, righteous or not, could have a personal relationship with God. Jesus taught that that even the lowest of those in life were like Kings to God and the Kings were like the lowliest of servants before the Creator.
Jesus taught that it was the spirit of Mosaic law that mattered, not a strict, rigid adherence to the letter with no thought of circumstance and just plain bad fate. Would you not pull your <ass> (donkey) from the pit even if it were the Sabbath?

Jesus taught a new way to look at life, a new way that at the time was truly mind shattering. To treat people, even if they were not of your tribe, of your land, gentile or Jew, treat them all as you would have yourself treated.
Jesus did not come to topple Kings and Empires. He came to free our minds.

We today cannot appreciate that message for the truly awe inspiring difference of thought that the people of those times had. The very idea of a "Good Samaritan" or the story of Jesus and the Roman Centurion would have been beyond troubling to the people of the day. The message that even the hated Roman could have a relationship with the very God that the Jews worshiped, that the same promise God made to the chosen people was extended to all of the Earth if they but understood the wisdom. Because the Pharisees of the time did not understand that truth, that wisdom that promise was extended to all the peoples of the Earth.

It is not irrational to want to work out differences between people, societies, cultures, individuals without bloodshed and violence.

It is not irrational to treat people fairly, honestly and justly.

It is not irrational to see people not like yourself and understand that they are in many ways the same as you.

It is not irrational to love, to show kindness.

Where do you think these things came from?
Who do you think taught this message at a time and place in history where it could actually spread across the globe?

Even the vast majority of the great thinkers of the Renaissance era were deeply religious and yet they had the courage to pursue their God given gifts of intellect and art despite possible punishment from the religious leaders of the day. Where do you think the basis of their courage came from?

That despite what the Pope may say, or the Iman, or the Rabbi, or the preacher may say, those individuals understood that we were all men looked at the same by God as Jesus taught. That even if they were to have their lives taken or their freedom stripped, that they would be vindicated by God and by history in the end.

Look at the most evil of men in history and see what they have in common. The complete lack of acknowledgment of the rights of the individual. That the State, in whatever form it may be, knows better what the people need than the individuals themselves. That those same human beings in power know better morality than the individual could know themselves.

Jesus taught us a better way to view ourselves. A view not at all widely held during his time and not widely held enough in our age.

It is the greatest love story ever told. And it changed the world in ways that those who are blind with prejudice or ill informed perception could never understand.

Yeah I gotta agree if Jesus existed he was a pretty cool dude. Despite some of the crazy stuff attributed to him, the general message associated with him is a good one and worth sharing.

[patches70]

Yeah I gotta agree if Jesus existed he was a pretty cool dude. Despite some of the crazy stuff attributed to him, the general message associated with him is a good one and worth sharing.

Any religion that actually cares about the people, would have no problem with anything Jesus taught. Even an Atheist, excluding the Love God message Jesus taught, would find nothing else wrong with his teachings.

Jesus was a cool dude.

And Jesus did exist. There was a man named Jesus who traveled and taught and was documented by numerous Roman and Jewish sources. This same man was also crucified. Whether or not he was actually the Son of God is the only real thing that is left uncertain. But the man Jesus certainly did exist.

The biggest problem is that Jesus himself never wrote a single word that anyone knows of. But what he taught, what is attributed as his teachings, are good and wise lessons to hold onto through life. I would challenge anyone to name any message that Jesus taught that they would disagree with in that what he taught about how we are supposed to treat each other.

[Army of GOD]

Yeah I gotta agree if Jesus existed he was a pretty cool dude. Despite some of the crazy stuff attributed to him, the general message associated with him is a good one and worth sharing.

Any religion that actually cares about the people, would have no problem with anything Jesus taught. Even an Atheist, excluding the Love God message Jesus taught, would find nothing else wrong with his teachings.

Jesus was a cool dude.

And Jesus did exist. There was a man named Jesus who traveled and taught and was documented by numerous Roman and Jewish sources. This same man was also crucified. Whether or not he was actually the Son of God is the only real thing that is left uncertain. But the man Jesus certainly did exist.

The biggest problem is that Jesus himself never wrote a single word that anyone knows of. But what he taught, what is attributed as his teachings, are good and wise lessons to hold onto through life. I would challenge anyone to name any message that Jesus taught that they would disagree with in that what he taught about how we are supposed to treat each other.

I am interested in these sources. Care to share?

[Haggis_McMutton]

Your understanding is lacking.

Remember back to the days before Jesus. There, the individual could not, was not allowed to commune with God. Whatever God that individual may have worshiped. From Zeus, to Jupiter, to Isis, to Mithra or whatever you wish to look at.

The Pharaohs along with their priests interpreted the word of God. The average Egyptian wasn't even allowed to learn to read hieroglyphs let alone have a relationship with their God.
The Greeks had to defer to an oracle.
The Jews were not allowed to set foot into the holiest of holy's, only the high priest could do that.
The Pope's of old told the flock what God wanted, read from Bibles written in Latin where the flock had no ability or knowledge to even read. It was punishable by death to write the Holy book into any other language that the masses could read themselves.
The Romans replaced God with The State.
The Pharisees strode around the cities telling who was and who was not righteous. Interpreting ill fate as punishment from God and demanding sacrifice to make amends while not even understanding the true wisdom of their own holy books.
Religious leaders of then and even now issue orders, Fatwas, edicts and expect the believers to obey without question as if individuals had no intellect of their own.

Jesus changed all that. But those in religious power were not easily swayed to relinquish that power.

Jesus taught that each individual, sinner or saint, righteous or not, could have a personal relationship with God. Jesus taught that that even the lowest of those in life were like Kings to God and the Kings were like the lowliest of servants before the Creator.
Jesus taught that it was the spirit of Mosaic law that mattered, not a strict, rigid adherence to the letter with no thought of circumstance and just plain bad fate. Would you not pull your <ass> (donkey) from the pit even if it were the Sabbath?

Jesus taught a new way to look at life, a new way that at the time was truly mind shattering. To treat people, even if they were not of your tribe, of your land, gentile or Jew, treat them all as you would have yourself treated.
Jesus did not come to topple Kings and Empires. He came to free our minds.

We today cannot appreciate that message for the truly awe inspiring difference of thought that the people of those times had. The very idea of a "Good Samaritan" or the story of Jesus and the Roman Centurion would have been beyond troubling to the people of the day. The message that even the hated Roman could have a relationship with the very God that the Jews worshiped, that the same promise God made to the chosen people was extended to all of the Earth if they but understood the wisdom. Because the Pharisees of the time did not understand that truth, that wisdom that promise was extended to all the peoples of the Earth.

It is not irrational to want to work out differences between people, societies, cultures, individuals without bloodshed and violence.

It is not irrational to treat people fairly, honestly and justly.

It is not irrational to see people not like yourself and understand that they are in many ways the same as you.

It is not irrational to love, to show kindness.

Where do you think these things came from?
Who do you think taught this message at a time and place in history where it could actually spread across the globe?

Even the vast majority of the great thinkers of the Renaissance era were deeply religious and yet they had the courage to pursue their God given gifts of intellect and art despite possible punishment from the religious leaders of the day. Where do you think the basis of their courage came from?

That despite what the Pope may say, or the Iman, or the Rabbi, or the preacher may say, those individuals understood that we were all men looked at the same by God as Jesus taught. That even if they were to have their lives taken or their freedom stripped, that they would be vindicated by God and by history in the end.

Look at the most evil of men in history and see what they have in common. The complete lack of acknowledgment of the rights of the individual. That the State, in whatever form it may be, knows better what the people need than the individuals themselves. That those same human beings in power know better morality than the individual could know themselves.

Jesus taught us a better way to view ourselves. A view not at all widely held during his time and not widely held enough in our age.

It is the greatest love story ever told. And it changed the world in ways that those who are blind with prejudice or ill informed perception could never understand.

I think we're talking past each other to a certain extent. You seem to be making 2 points:

1. Christianity had a positive effect on the world.
This may well be true, it's very hard to tell and seems kind of pointless to discuss imo. I'm not arguing this point.

2. Jesus was a swell guy and had a good philosophy.
I would 100% agree with this, if only there wouldn't be all the god nonsense thrown in. You may say the god stuff was necessary for that day and age. Again this might well be true, however I think it is not necessary and even harmful today.

Did Jesus support the notion that the only way to salvation was by accepting our inherent flawed nature and submitting to a higher power?
Do you not see how this contradicts with your individualism doctrine?

You say Jesus helped us fight the pressure to submit to state or priest, if only he had gone all the way and helped fight the pressure to submit to god as well ...

[Haggis_McMutton]

Patches, you're excluding a lot of pre-Christian religions, including, but not limited to:

1. Hinduism
2. Buddhism
3. Shintoism
4. Indigenous beliefs and religions throughout the world

Of course.

The bible tells of when Jesus was born and his very early life as a child. Then he disappears and returns in his late 20's. People wonder where Jesus was in that time between.

Some believe that Jesus traveled as a boy and young man. That he experienced many cultures that were not widely known or understood and when he returned he brought all that knowledge with him and taught a new way to look at life.

Have you seen The Man from Earth by any chance?

[john9blue]

Any religion that actually cares about the people, would have no problem with anything Jesus taught. Even an Atheist, excluding the Love God message Jesus taught, would find nothing else wrong with his teachings.

Jesus was a cool dude.

And Jesus did exist. There was a man named Jesus who traveled and taught and was documented by numerous Roman and Jewish sources. This same man was also crucified. Whether or not he was actually the Son of God is the only real thing that is left uncertain. But the man Jesus certainly did exist.

The biggest problem is that Jesus himself never wrote a single word that anyone knows of. But what he taught, what is attributed as his teachings, are good and wise lessons to hold onto through life. I would challenge anyone to name any message that Jesus taught that they would disagree with in that what he taught about how we are supposed to treat each other.

I am interested in these sources. Care to share?

look up "the historicity of jesus"

edit: actually i'll just link you to a wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

[patches70]

Yeah I gotta agree if Jesus existed he was a pretty cool dude. Despite some of the crazy stuff attributed to him, the general message associated with him is a good one and worth sharing.

Any religion that actually cares about the people, would have no problem with anything Jesus taught. Even an Atheist, excluding the Love God message Jesus taught, would find nothing else wrong with his teachings.

Jesus was a cool dude.

And Jesus did exist. There was a man named Jesus who traveled and taught and was documented by numerous Roman and Jewish sources. This same man was also crucified. Whether or not he was actually the Son of God is the only real thing that is left uncertain. But the man Jesus certainly did exist.

The biggest problem is that Jesus himself never wrote a single word that anyone knows of. But what he taught, what is attributed as his teachings, are good and wise lessons to hold onto through life. I would challenge anyone to name any message that Jesus taught that they would disagree with in that what he taught about how we are supposed to treat each other.

I am interested in these sources. Care to share?

Hell, you can wiki Jesus and they have links to sources you can look at. Or you can look up these sources if you wish.

Josephus wrote of Jesus and he was a historian of the time. There were lots of other historians as well and the Romans were record keepers as were the Greeks. They all have sources of a man named Jesus who roamed the country teaching people and drawing large crowds. They wrote of how he was crucified and buried.

Josephus, or the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus. You can google and read for yourself what they wrote about Jesus. Today's historians mostly agree that Jesus actually existed.

What's nice about the non-bible references to Jesus is that they are written through the eyes of people who were not Christians. They merely wrote about what they saw and what they knew in a critical way.
Josephus wrote about the death of Jesus' brother, which he couldn't have gotten from biblical accounts as there were no biblical accounts when Josephus wrote about it.

Of what Tacitus wrote, it is believed his source was from official Roman records, possibly from Pilate himself about the crucifixion.

Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian, wrote, "Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the City." Chrestus is a variant spelling of Christ. Suetonius refers to a wave of riots that broke out in a large Jewish community in Rome during the year 49 A.D. As a result, the Jews were banished from the city.

A Greek historian, Thallus (you can look him up)- Thallus wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus. His writing date to circa 52 A.D. and the passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus' work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse.

Then there are the reports of Pilate- Two references have been made to a report by Pontius Pilate. The references include Justin Martyr (150 A..D.) and Tetullian (200 A.D.). Both references correspond with the fact that there was an official document in Rome from Pilate. The Pilate report detailed the crucifixion but also reported acts of miracles.

Then there is also Pliny (you should recognize that name)- Though Christ was not proclaimed a deity until the fourth century, Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, wrote in 112 A.D., two hundred years before the "deity" proclamation, that Christians in Bithynia worshipped Christ.

And of course, there was Tiberius who was the Emperor when Jesus was crucified. He received reports from Pilate and just a few years after Jesus was crucified asked the Senate to recognize Christianity. The Senate refused of course, and Tiberius probably only looked at Christianity as a sect of Judaism.

The Talmud mentions Jesus as well.-
On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."If Jesus had been stoned, his death would have been at the hands of the Jews. The fact he was crucified shows that the Romans intervened. The Talmud also speaks of five of Jesus' disciples and recounts their standing before judges who made individual decisions about each one, deciding that they should be executed. No deaths are recorded.

The Talmud also says Jesus was connected to Jewish royalty.- Other Talmud references to Jesus indicated that Jesus was "treated differently from others who led the people astray, for he was connected with royalty." These Talmud accounts were written long before the New Testament was assembled. They provide clear evidence that Jesus did live. The Talmud does not embrace Christ as a deity and would have no reason to sanction his existence. The Talmud also states that Jesus was 33 or 34 years old when he died. The risen Christ is the foundation of Christianity. But Christ would have to have lived and died before His resurrection could become an historical factor.

Then of course there are the hostile Jewish writing of Toledoth Jesu. Attempts to sway the non-divinity of Jesus. Though that was written long after the days of Jesus, what is important about it is that- The importance of this passage, historically correct or not, is to place Jesus in the tomb of Joseph after crucifixion and to record the consternation of the Jewish Priests. This places historic significance on the fact that Jesus did live and die in history


I would just as soon let you look it all up yourself and you'll probably find other sources as well. You will also find the occasional sources that claim it's all a lie. But the fact is, historians around the time of Jesus, as well as Roman records of the time, all mention Jesus the man.

[patches70]

Patches, you're excluding a lot of pre-Christian religions, including, but not limited to:

1. Hinduism
2. Buddhism
3. Shintoism
4. Indigenous beliefs and religions throughout the world

Of course.

The bible tells of when Jesus was born and his very early life as a child. Then he disappears and returns in his late 20's. People wonder where Jesus was in that time between.

Some believe that Jesus traveled as a boy and young man. That he experienced many cultures that were not widely known or understood and when he returned he brought all that knowledge with him and taught a new way to look at life.

Have you seen The Man from Earth by any chance?

It's on netflix but I haven't watched it. Should I watch it?