Greek Government Already Showing Cracks

[GreecePwns]

I would tell you, but I have before several times, even in this thread. I can even spend another several thousands of words telling you what's wrong with that picture, your worldview, your method of debate and several other things, but I will not, because you're just gonna come into another thread next week and say the same things and act the same way.

I mean come on man, liberals running out of other people's money to waste? Did you even read what I wrote the last time we talked about this? And where are the liberals? Who else's money? Forget it, I've got more important things to do right now.

Greece is Burning! This is what happens when a government does not enforce its own tax laws because its tax collectors take bribes!

[Phatscotty]

I would tell you, but I have before several times, even in this thread. I can even spend another several thousands of words telling you what's wrong with that picture, your worldview, your method of debate and several other things, but I will not, because you're just gonna come into another thread next week and say the same things and act the same way.

I mean come on man, liberals running out of other people's money to waste? Did you even read what I wrote the last time we talked about this? And where are the liberals? Who else's money? Forget it, I've got more important things to do right now.

well, of course that's all YOUR FAULT for not having changed my mind!

I think we can both agree Greece ran out of money. I think we can both agree that Greece only survives because of other people money. I think we can both agree that still that is not enough money. I understand you are sensitive because of the famous saying "Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money", and how this looks.

I have heard you in your previous posts, I know what you are going to say. That doesn't not change that Greece has run out of other poeple's money. Sure you can inform us all about the reasons why Greece went bust, and who's fault it is, and why it didn't work this time, and it would have worked if only xyz happened.

The people of Greece are striking and rioting and burning and suiciding because they ran out of money. That's just the bottom line. We are going to have to disagree, which is sad, because that just means that many people will not learn anything from Greece's failure.

[GreecePwns]

Okay.

[Phatscotty]

Well, I understand Greece was lent a bunch of money by Germany etc. But that isn't really the debt I was talking about. I was talking about the bond debt. Once Greece's revenues began to dry up from taxation etc, Greece started selling more and more bonds so they could continue their way of life (comments withheld). Greece knew it would have trouble paying the interest back, not to mention the principle, but of course they figured the crisis would end and the economy would rebound and they would get back on their feet and their way of life could continue. Obama thinks the same thing for the USA.

Sure, JP Morgan Goldman Sachs and co. punked out Greece, but I will say what I have always said about my own country. Greece could have reformed. It's not to single out Greece, as I know how hard it is for people to change their ways from what they are comfortable with, and usually do not take action until it's too late. The key is to fix the problems before the system crashes. I really am sorry things happened the way they did over there, and it drives me even harder to try to fix our problems and inculcate solutions here before the system crashes. That is part of the reason I posted that picture.

People deny the problems, and then when it comes to a head, they are all to eager to give the government more power and give up their own freedom and sovereignty in the name of not having to change their lifestyles. Of course, if the people never fix the problem, they are going to be forced to change their lifestyles. The longer the people wait, the worse they will be in the end

Debt can be helpful, but all too often people and countries go way too far and screw it up for everyone else, including the people who were responsible and had little/no debt. It's just my opinion, but whether the people of Greece knew it or not, they sold out their sovereignty in the few years before the Austerity measures were imposed (much like I think American's are selling their freedom right now, by continuing to demand more spending, more government programs, adamantly refusing to cut even a penny of spending, all the while our credit is being downgraded). They got some smaller bailouts, but did not change their ways. That was the time for Greece to deal with their problems, they did not. I don't even really think they tried to hard either. Rather than look for solutions, they played blame games about who's fault it was, which made it pretty easy for average Greeks not to have to look at themselves or make any changes. sure, the politicians take the blame too for lying and selling people out, but the bottom line, IMO, is that this is where redistribution of wealth always ends up. It's hard to understand because it never happens the same way and can be hard to identify, even after it gets painfully clear.

[GreecePwns]

The last two opinion polls have been released, and they show pretty much the same picture (that the two big parties will struggle to get enough seats to form a coalition; and that there probably will be another election. Another poll on what government was preferred showed this:

Leftist anti-bailout party coalition: 21 percent
ND-PASOK pro-bailout coalition: 14.9 percent
Technocratic pro-bailout government: 11.3 percent
None, I want another election: 22 percent
All other options got <1 percent

[BigBallinStalin]

Do you think the Greek economy could get any worse? Or has it bottomed out?

[GreecePwns]

If we are to believe the experts, the worst is behind us. And that's a leap of faith.

Yes, GDP is growing. But government deficits are too.
Yes, the government reigned in expenses by privatizing the financially worst-looking of its assets. But it still leaves money on the table due to rampant tax evasion and now a new tax system, which shifts the burden toward the lower income brackets.

EDIT: The tax evasion problem made the old tax system effectively regressive. The changes being implemented without solving the real problem only make it more so.

Also, the government deficit is still just as bad as it was before. And there are still only 6 reported millionaires living in Greece.

This is something that can't be answered in a response of this length, what with all the uncertainty and the massive implications of this election.

[Fruitcake]

Riots on the streets of Prague now. The Dutch Govt have pretty much left the arena after mass resignations (also looks like their AAA rating will be downgraded). European equities (continental Europe that is) hit the skids big time yesterday (€122 billion+ wiped).Negative GDP projections by the Bank of Spain and now the Netherlands and the Czech Republic all hit the circuits yesterday.

This whole situation is still looking like a slow motion pile up.

The Euro is gasping for air. Time for the Greeks to get the hell out of this crazy currency.

[BigBallinStalin]

WOOOOO, BABY! LET IT RIDE!!!!

[GreecePwns]

Riots on the streets of Prague now. The Dutch Govt have pretty much left the arena after mass resignations (also looks like their AAA rating will be downgraded). European equities (continental Europe that is) hit the skids big time yesterday (€122 billion+ wiped).Negative GDP projections by the Bank of Spain and now the Netherlands and the Czech Republic all hit the circuits yesterday.

This whole situation is still looking like a slow motion pile up.

The Euro is gasping for air. Time for the Greeks to get the hell out of this crazy currency.

The only Greek political parties that support an exit from the Euro are the neo-Nazis and the communists.

[BigBallinStalin]

They're trying to find the niche voter markets.

[Fruitcake]

Riots on the streets of Prague now. The Dutch Govt have pretty much left the arena after mass resignations (also looks like their AAA rating will be downgraded). European equities (continental Europe that is) hit the skids big time yesterday (€122 billion+ wiped).Negative GDP projections by the Bank of Spain and now the Netherlands and the Czech Republic all hit the circuits yesterday.

This whole situation is still looking like a slow motion pile up.

The Euro is gasping for air. Time for the Greeks to get the hell out of this crazy currency.

The only Greek political parties that support an exit from the Euro are the neo-Nazis and the communists.

You bet! Why would the main politicians not support staying in the Euro? After all, their paymasters in Brussels (sic) now dictate what they say...and the Greek central banker, George Provopoulos also sits on the governing council of the European Central Bank.

With the greatest respect to you and the rest of the long suffering Greek people, the ultimate paymasters of the Greek political class and in fact, presently Europe's ultimate paymaster overall is the German government. So one should look closely at what this particular band of people are busying themselves with at the moment....The Germans are doing very well in China as they make things the Chinese want to buy. Two weeks ago, BMW and Audi announced record increase in sales but this did not happen in the EU but in the BRICs especially China.

Meanwhile, I read currently that the Greek central bank has revised it's forecasts downwards once again, smashing the 4.5% contraction given at the last bail out and now forecasting 5% minimum contraction in the coming year.

I follow a lot of Greek journalists who work for the financial press. They have some very astute insights into this whole situation.

I would bet the farm there is no overall majority in the election. Most likely (IMHO) it will be a case of uneasy bedfellows with New Democracy sharing power with the Pasok party.

Good luck to every one in Greece. I shall be down in Athens soon to attend some functions I have been invited to there and on a couple of islands . I always love these visits and my Greek friends tell me they are determined to press on regardless.

[Phatscotty]

Greecepwns, I was reading about Greece and came across this...

....to stop illegal crossing into a country that became the entry point for 90 percent of the European Union's illegal migrants. Authorities estimate there are about 1 million migrants living in this country of 11 million.

Is that true? If so, why? Is it only geography?

[Baron Von PWN]

Greecepwns, I was reading about Greece and came across this...

....to stop illegal crossing into a country that became the entry point for 90 percent of the European Union's illegal migrants. Authorities estimate there are about 1 million migrants living in this country of 11 million.

Is that true? If so, why? Is it only geography?

Probably geography. They border Albania and Macedonia. Though I suspect the bigger issue is all the islands. It would be difficult to patrol properly. All someone would have to do is land somewhere undetected and they'd then have access to internal EU transportation.

[patches70]

Greecepwns, I was reading about Greece and came across this...

....to stop illegal crossing into a country that became the entry point for 90 percent of the European Union's illegal migrants. Authorities estimate there are about 1 million migrants living in this country of 11 million.

Is that true? If so, why? Is it only geography?

Greece is the drop off point for immigrants traveling further into Europe to find jobs and opportunity. They all go through Greece.