Greek Government Already Showing Cracks

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Re: Greek Parliament Now at 12(!) Parties, Election 4/19?

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:17 pm

To quote wiki:

Members of Parliament are immune from criminal prosecution, arrest or detention while in office. They are also immune from having to provide any information to any authority regarding their legislative functions and deliberations. They are not immune from civil suits. Alleged crimes committed in the member's official capacity (e.g. embezzlement of public monies) may be adjudicated only after Parliament impeaches the member. Government ministers who are not members of Parliament are subject to the same procedure. The impeachment trial is held by an ad hoc Special Court. Alleged crimes committed in the member's personal capacity (e.g. homicide) may be adjudicated only after Parliament votes to have the member's immunity suspended, at the request of a prosecuting attorney and only in relation to the particular alleged crime. In such cases, the case is adjudicated by a regular court. The Parliament's permission is not necessary if a member is "caught in the act" of committing a crime (e.g. murder).
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6, Big 2 Coalition On Life Supp

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:39 pm

Sounds like a sweet gig. Where do I sign up to become a Greek politician?
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6, Big 2 Coalition On Life Supp

Postby GreecePwns on Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:30 pm

This morning, a 77-year old man committed suicide in Syntagma Square in central Athens, and his suicide note can be a catalyst for further political turmoil.

State media has reported that Dimitris Christoulas, the man who took his own life using a pistol on Syntagma Square, in central Athens, on Wednesday morning, left a suicide note.
"The Tsolakoglou government has annihilated all traces for my survival, which was based on a very dignified pension that I alone paid for 35 years with no help from the state. And since my advanced age does not allow me a way of dynamically reacting (although if a fellow Greek were to grab a Kalashnikov, I would be right behind him), I see no other solution than this dignified end to my life, so I don’t find myself fishing through garbage cans for my sustenance. I believe that young people with no future, will one day take up arms and hang the traitors of this country at Syntagma square, just like the Italians did to Mussolini in 1945" the note said.
Georgios Tsolakoglou was the first collaborationist prime minister during Germany's occupation of Greece during the Second World War. The reference has been widely interpreted as a comparison between the wartime collaborationist government and the current government of Lucas Papademos.
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6; Suicide of 77yo Man Shakes i

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:20 pm

Metron Analysis released a poll today, the first of April and the last before election season officially starts. The election date will be announced Wednesday, and most think it will be May 6th. Here are some changes in this poll and the news surrounding them:

- New Democracy continues to decline, now down to a new low of 20.8%. After ND party chief Antonis Samaras gave a prominent speech attacking PASOK and PASOK fighting back, many voters say they see this as more of the same. On top of that Samaras is ruling out a grand coalition with PASOK. Whether or not this is just politics remains to be seen.
- PASOK's rebounding is mostly at the expense of DIMAR, who have failed to differentiate themselves enough from PASOK. They are down to 9 percent, whereas for the past month they were somewhere in the 12-14 range.
- Golden Dawn continues to rise, now to 5.5%, on the back of the illegal immigrant detention centre issue
- In this poll, both LAOS and the Greens are in parliament, with the Greens hitting a year to date high of 4.6%
- ND defectors Independent Greeks continue to take away votes from their former party, at 10.6%
- The ND+PASOK coalition possibility is DOA in this poll, even falling outside 95% certainty range.

The poll produces the following Parliament:
New Democracy 107
PASOK 41
SYRIZA-Unitary Social Front 32
KKE 29
Independent Greeks 29
Democratic Left 25
Golden Dawn 15
Greens 13
LAOS 9

Looks like another election in winter, guys.
Last edited by GreecePwns on Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6; Suicide of 77yo Man Shakes i

Postby Baron Von PWN on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:57 pm

What happens if no party forms a Majority? Or if no coalition is possible? Do you then get a minority parliament that governs issue by issue?
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6; Suicide of 77yo Man Shakes i

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:05 am

I would assume so. It's amazing that a system set up to prevent exactly this is still being broken down. Without the 50 free seats going to the first party, there would be another Belgium situation.
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6; Suicide of 77yo Man Shakes i

Postby Baron Von PWN on Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:15 am

GreecePwns wrote:I would assume so. It's amazing that a system set up to prevent exactly this is still being broken down. Without the 50 free seats going to the first party, there would be another Belgium situation.


First place gets 50 free seats? That's weird. Especialy when in terms of public opinion 1st 2nd and 3rd are pretty close.
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Re: Greek Election 4/29 or 5/6; Suicide of 77yo Man Shakes i

Postby GreecePwns on Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:26 am

Well in all the elections prior to this, two parties would end up getting 75+% of the votes, so all it did was give the winner an absolute majority. This election the two parties are getting less than 40%, and instead of 3 smaller parties joining them there can be as many as 6 or 7. The free seats normally help prevent a situation where government formation is impossible, and yet due to the proliferation of breakaway parties and collapse of PASOK + ND, not even this is enough help.
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby GreecePwns on Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:56 am

On the heels of Antonis Samaras announcing he will not seek coalition with any other party in pursuit of an absolute majority, a new opinion poll has New Democracy at its lowest point, with 19% of the vote.

The poll produces the following Parliament:
New Democracy 102
PASOK 40
SYRIZA-Unitary Social Front 35
Democratic Left 33
KKE 30
Independent Greeks 30
Golden Dawn 14
Greens 8
LAOS 8

Expect some changes now that election season has officially begun. Greek media laws require equal time to be given to what are called "parliamentary groups" - groups that contested the last election (ND, PASOK,SYRIZA, KKE, LAOS) or otherwise have 10+ MPs (Democratic Left, Independent Greeks). No media time is required for other groups.

Another Greek law forbids opinion polls from being released after two weeks before the election, so the next time I post opinion polls will be the last time.

Full disclosure: I will be voting for SYRIZA.
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:42 pm

Hey Pwns, can you please tell me what is wrong with this picture? I'm asking you before I post it out on all my other sources.

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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby GreecePwns on Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:49 pm

I would tell you, but I have before several times, even in this thread. I can even spend another several thousands of words telling you what's wrong with that picture, your worldview, your method of debate and several other things, but I will not, because you're just gonna come into another thread next week and say the same things and act the same way.

I mean come on man, liberals running out of other people's money to waste? Did you even read what I wrote the last time we talked about this? And where are the liberals? Who else's money? Forget it, I've got more important things to do right now.

Greece is Burning! This is what happens when a government does not enforce its own tax laws because its tax collectors take bribes!
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:04 pm

GreecePwns wrote:I would tell you, but I have before several times, even in this thread. I can even spend another several thousands of words telling you what's wrong with that picture, your worldview, your method of debate and several other things, but I will not, because you're just gonna come into another thread next week and say the same things and act the same way.

I mean come on man, liberals running out of other people's money to waste? Did you even read what I wrote the last time we talked about this? And where are the liberals? Who else's money? Forget it, I've got more important things to do right now.


well, of course that's all YOUR FAULT for not having changed my mind! ;)

I think we can both agree Greece ran out of money. I think we can both agree that Greece only survives because of other people money. I think we can both agree that still that is not enough money. I understand you are sensitive because of the famous saying "Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money", and how this looks.

I have heard you in your previous posts, I know what you are going to say. That doesn't not change that Greece has run out of other poeple's money. Sure you can inform us all about the reasons why Greece went bust, and who's fault it is, and why it didn't work this time, and it would have worked if only xyz happened.

The people of Greece are striking and rioting and burning and suiciding because they ran out of money. That's just the bottom line. We are going to have to disagree, which is sad, because that just means that many people will not learn anything from Greece's failure.
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby GreecePwns on Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:06 pm

Okay.
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:20 pm

Well, I understand Greece was lent a bunch of money by Germany etc. But that isn't really the debt I was talking about. I was talking about the bond debt. Once Greece's revenues began to dry up from taxation etc, Greece started selling more and more bonds so they could continue their way of life (comments withheld). Greece knew it would have trouble paying the interest back, not to mention the principle, but of course they figured the crisis would end and the economy would rebound and they would get back on their feet and their way of life could continue. Obama thinks the same thing for the USA.

Sure, JP Morgan Goldman Sachs and co. punked out Greece, but I will say what I have always said about my own country. Greece could have reformed. It's not to single out Greece, as I know how hard it is for people to change their ways from what they are comfortable with, and usually do not take action until it's too late. The key is to fix the problems before the system crashes. I really am sorry things happened the way they did over there, and it drives me even harder to try to fix our problems and inculcate solutions here before the system crashes. That is part of the reason I posted that picture.

People deny the problems, and then when it comes to a head, they are all to eager to give the government more power and give up their own freedom and sovereignty in the name of not having to change their lifestyles. Of course, if the people never fix the problem, they are going to be forced to change their lifestyles. The longer the people wait, the worse they will be in the end

Debt can be helpful, but all too often people and countries go way too far and screw it up for everyone else, including the people who were responsible and had little/no debt. It's just my opinion, but whether the people of Greece knew it or not, they sold out their sovereignty in the few years before the Austerity measures were imposed (much like I think American's are selling their freedom right now, by continuing to demand more spending, more government programs, adamantly refusing to cut even a penny of spending, all the while our credit is being downgraded). They got some smaller bailouts, but did not change their ways. That was the time for Greece to deal with their problems, they did not. I don't even really think they tried to hard either. Rather than look for solutions, they played blame games about who's fault it was, which made it pretty easy for average Greeks not to have to look at themselves or make any changes. sure, the politicians take the blame too for lying and selling people out, but the bottom line, IMO, is that this is where redistribution of wealth always ends up. It's hard to understand because it never happens the same way and can be hard to identify, even after it gets painfully clear.
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:44 am

The last two opinion polls have been released, and they show pretty much the same picture (that the two big parties will struggle to get enough seats to form a coalition; and that there probably will be another election. Another poll on what government was preferred showed this:

Leftist anti-bailout party coalition: 21 percent
ND-PASOK pro-bailout coalition: 14.9 percent
Technocratic pro-bailout government: 11.3 percent
None, I want another election: 22 percent
All other options got <1 percent
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:27 pm

Do you think the Greek economy could get any worse? Or has it bottomed out?
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:08 pm

If we are to believe the experts, the worst is behind us. And that's a leap of faith.

Yes, GDP is growing. But government deficits are too.
Yes, the government reigned in expenses by privatizing the financially worst-looking of its assets. But it still leaves money on the table due to rampant tax evasion and now a new tax system, which shifts the burden toward the lower income brackets.

EDIT: The tax evasion problem made the old tax system effectively regressive. The changes being implemented without solving the real problem only make it more so.

Also, the government deficit is still just as bad as it was before. And there are still only 6 reported millionaires living in Greece.

This is something that can't be answered in a response of this length, what with all the uncertainty and the massive implications of this election.
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby Fruitcake on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:32 am

Riots on the streets of Prague now. The Dutch Govt have pretty much left the arena after mass resignations (also looks like their AAA rating will be downgraded). European equities (continental Europe that is) hit the skids big time yesterday (€122 billion+ wiped).Negative GDP projections by the Bank of Spain and now the Netherlands and the Czech Republic all hit the circuits yesterday.

This whole situation is still looking like a slow motion pile up.

The Euro is gasping for air. Time for the Greeks to get the hell out of this crazy currency.
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Due to current economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:11 am

WOOOOO, BABY! LET IT RIDE!!!!
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby GreecePwns on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:59 am

Fruitcake wrote:Riots on the streets of Prague now. The Dutch Govt have pretty much left the arena after mass resignations (also looks like their AAA rating will be downgraded). European equities (continental Europe that is) hit the skids big time yesterday (€122 billion+ wiped).Negative GDP projections by the Bank of Spain and now the Netherlands and the Czech Republic all hit the circuits yesterday.

This whole situation is still looking like a slow motion pile up.

The Euro is gasping for air. Time for the Greeks to get the hell out of this crazy currency.


The only Greek political parties that support an exit from the Euro are the neo-Nazis and the communists. :lol:
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:20 pm

They're trying to find the niche voter markets.
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby Fruitcake on Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:32 pm

GreecePwns wrote:
Fruitcake wrote:Riots on the streets of Prague now. The Dutch Govt have pretty much left the arena after mass resignations (also looks like their AAA rating will be downgraded). European equities (continental Europe that is) hit the skids big time yesterday (€122 billion+ wiped).Negative GDP projections by the Bank of Spain and now the Netherlands and the Czech Republic all hit the circuits yesterday.

This whole situation is still looking like a slow motion pile up.

The Euro is gasping for air. Time for the Greeks to get the hell out of this crazy currency.


The only Greek political parties that support an exit from the Euro are the neo-Nazis and the communists. :lol:


You bet! Why would the main politicians not support staying in the Euro? After all, their paymasters in Brussels (sic) now dictate what they say...and the Greek central banker, George Provopoulos also sits on the governing council of the European Central Bank.

With the greatest respect to you and the rest of the long suffering Greek people, the ultimate paymasters of the Greek political class and in fact, presently Europe's ultimate paymaster overall is the German government. So one should look closely at what this particular band of people are busying themselves with at the moment....The Germans are doing very well in China as they make things the Chinese want to buy. Two weeks ago, BMW and Audi announced record increase in sales but this did not happen in the EU but in the BRICs especially China.

Meanwhile, I read currently that the Greek central bank has revised it's forecasts downwards once again, smashing the 4.5% contraction given at the last bail out and now forecasting 5% minimum contraction in the coming year.

I follow a lot of Greek journalists who work for the financial press. They have some very astute insights into this whole situation.

I would bet the farm there is no overall majority in the election. Most likely (IMHO) it will be a case of uneasy bedfellows with New Democracy sharing power with the Pasok party.

Good luck to every one in Greece. I shall be down in Athens soon to attend some functions I have been invited to there and on a couple of islands . I always love these visits and my Greek friends tell me they are determined to press on regardless.
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Due to current economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 01, 2012 12:35 am

Greecepwns, I was reading about Greece and came across this...

....to stop illegal crossing into a country that became the entry point for 90 percent of the European Union's illegal migrants. Authorities estimate there are about 1 million migrants living in this country of 11 million.



Is that true? If so, why? Is it only geography?
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby Baron Von PWN on Tue May 01, 2012 10:12 am

Phatscotty wrote:Greecepwns, I was reading about Greece and came across this...

....to stop illegal crossing into a country that became the entry point for 90 percent of the European Union's illegal migrants. Authorities estimate there are about 1 million migrants living in this country of 11 million.



Is that true? If so, why? Is it only geography?


Probably geography. They border Albania and Macedonia. Though I suspect the bigger issue is all the islands. It would be difficult to patrol properly. All someone would have to do is land somewhere undetected and they'd then have access to internal EU transportation.
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Re: Greek Election Campaigns Season Begins; Election May 6th

Postby patches70 on Tue May 01, 2012 10:54 am

Phatscotty wrote:Greecepwns, I was reading about Greece and came across this...

....to stop illegal crossing into a country that became the entry point for 90 percent of the European Union's illegal migrants. Authorities estimate there are about 1 million migrants living in this country of 11 million.



Is that true? If so, why? Is it only geography?


Greece is the drop off point for immigrants traveling further into Europe to find jobs and opportunity. They all go through Greece.
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