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Did you know...

Postby natty dread on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:28 am

Warning: this post contains bitter and boring rants - if you're not prepared to hear about all the injustices and stupid shit in CC, better just skip it alltogether. I'm posting this only because several people have asked me why I binned all of my maps and quit mapmaking. Well, there are several reasons, but the thing that broke the camel's back is as follows:

Recently, I posted a new map thread in the foundry. The map was called "World XL", and it was a new large world map with 217 territories, which had taken me several days just to plan and design, and figure out all the territories and bonus areas.

As soon as I posted the map, I was informed that I had to put it on hold, because "the supersize guidelines were being revised". I thought it was kind of odd, but ok, I could wait. Several days passed, and then, suddenly, I got this message:

Hello natty,

Unfortunately, after a bit of discussion, behind the scenes, with the site admins, it has been brought to my attention that the theme of a larger world map has been reserved for future use, for this reason "the site" can't give to you the approval for a map of that type.


So, after I looked into it further, it was made clear to me that the admins had basically denied the map I wanted to make, because when they saw it, they thought it was so awesome they had to steal the idea. They decided they couldn't let someone like me create such an important map for CC, rather they had to give the project to one of their inner-circle lackeys, to develop in secret, behind the scenes. How do I know they hadn't already been developing their map before I posted mine? Well, obviously, they wouldn't have waited for several days before informing me - they would have told me right in the beginning that they had their own project. No, they saw my map and basically stole it.

So in case anyone wonders why I'm not going to create any more maps for CC, the reason is, because there are two "map foundries" on CC: The regular one, the public one where everyone can visit, and anyone can make a map if they pass the foundry process. And then, the secret, privileged-people foundry, where the favorite ass-kissers of the admins create their pet projects, and no one can influence this project - this is where all the crappiest maps on CC have become from btw, like the Easter map and such.

So, is it any wonder that all the creative forces of CC are getting frustrated and quitting the site? Chipv (the guy who created maprank) quit because of lack of support from the admin. Our best mapmakers quit because they were treated like crap. Hell, there's a whole another site started by ex-CC mapmakers who got pissed off with the way lack handles things. Honestly I don't see much of a future for CC the way things are going.

I look forward to the ass-kissers of Team CC to jump to their defense (I'm looking at you, Victor Sullivan & Dukasaur) so before you say anything, let me save you the trouble: yes, this is lack's site and he can do what he wants with it, if I don't like it I can just leave, blah blah. Yeah, I get that. But I also have the right to choose which site I contribute my creative efforts to. CC has only thrived in the past because of user-created content, so I personally think it's really moronic of the admins to piss off all those people who create content for the site and keep it running, but hey, that's their choice.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby IR1SH ACE on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:24 am

sorry to hear this CC will be losing a valuable Map maker....those this mean Euraisa want be going BETA? I have been looking forward to playing that one for ages now....please finish that one but I understand if you dont..

So this secret map foundry, is this the same place that done the Paddy's Day map.. :roll:

that is a terrible map, not just the stupid names for the leprechauns and the shamrocks been referred to as clovers but the game play on it is brutal...I imagine it took a couple of hours to make and it shows..

hope team CC realize there mistake here and do what is necessary to appease this situation..

Thanks for some great maps natty... =D>
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Re: Did you know...

Postby HighlanderAttack on Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:56 am

Not a map I would enjoy--that being said--If I had approval, I would approve most most of any kind as long as they were something someone would want to play. Since World 2.1 is one of the most popular--I am sure this would be a very popular map. ND is a seasoned map maker--let him make his map.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby danryan on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:17 am

Call the Waaaaaambulance, quick.

Tl:dr.

Sorry to hear you're leaving, dude. Your maps were getting better.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby KoolBak on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:08 am

Ever consider that the "site" just can't handle your awesomeness in map form RIGHT NOW? Sounds like it's a timing thing, perhaps of computing power / server memory - I would have taken it as they want it in the future and they want YOU to do it when the site capabilities are ready.

PS - your glass is half empty! Fill 'er up!!!
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Re: Did you know...

Postby natty dread on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:49 am

KoolBak wrote:Ever consider that the "site" just can't handle your awesomeness in map form RIGHT NOW?


Nope, that's not it. Read my post. I was explicitly told the reason why I couldn't make the map, and the reason was that they would rather steal my idea and have their "secret foundry" make it instead...

It used to be, in the foundry, back when I started mapmaking, that if two people had the same idea for a map, then they could both pursue their ideas and whoever had the better/stronger concept, and/or would be more dedicated to getting the map done, would get his map done. You know, fair competition, survival of the fittest and all that. But now it's like, there's this special group that enjoys some kind of "government subsidies" that allow them to out-compete the regular mapmakers.


Also, to clarify things, I'm not quitting CC, I hate those drama threads where people come in gd and are all "look at me I'm quitting" and then they stay away for like 6 weeks tops... If I was quitting CC I wouldn't be here talking about it, I'd just leave. Also, the maps I have in the FF, including Eurasia, will go to beta, but I'm not making any new maps. I don't expect anyone to care particularly, nor do I expect this to really accomplish anything... I'm just tired of the bullshit, that's all.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby KoolBak on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:38 pm

Well hell....that does indeed suck; at least you had a great idea ;o)
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Re: Did you know...

Postby happy2seeyou on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:49 pm

This is sad to read. Too bad that something like this has to happen. Slowly this site has been changing and going into that direction. Hopefully soon, something changes. Also, I agree... the easter map is horrid to look at.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Gilligan on Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:53 pm

First off, you aren't the first person to think of doing a "World 3.0" or "World XL" or whatever you want to call it.

Second off, the idea of that map has been brought in front the team before you posted that thread with the idea.

Please, before you go accusing the admins of CC of stealing your idea, you at least need the proper information to back it up.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Army of GOD on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:17 pm

They said the same thing about my live chat map viewtopic.php?f=63&t=123101#p2705222
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Butters1919 on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:25 pm

Army of GOD wrote:They said the same thing about my live chat map viewtopic.php?f=63&t=123101#p2705222


Not quite. They told natty that he could not proceed because the idea was "reserved" for future site plans. They told you that you could not proceed because your "map" sucked. Quite different situations.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby natty dread on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:39 pm

Gilligan wrote:First off, you aren't the first person to think of doing a "World 3.0" or "World XL" or whatever you want to call it.

Second off, the idea of that map has been brought in front the team before you posted that thread with the idea.

Please, before you go accusing the admins of CC of stealing your idea, you at least need the proper information to back it up.


Oh, by "team" you mean the Super-Secret Foundry #2 - aka. The Privileged Inner-Circle Foundry?

I'm so sorry that I'm just a regular proletarian who has no access to your super secret aristocratic forums, but I'm still going to call bullshit on that. Even if it was posted on your "team forums" or whatever, I'm the one who posted my thread in the actual, real foundry. I'm the one who put my work for public review, not pussyfooting behind closed doors...

Why don't you make your draft, put it next to mine, and we'll let the community decide which map is worthy of being on the site? Or are you afraid your map won't survive in honest competition? Is that why you guys make maps behind the scenes, because you couldn't make it in the regular foundry? Actually, that makes a lot of sense now that I think of it. Maps like Easter would never have made it through the Real Foundry process. That's why you guys need to make maps behind the scenes, with the admin protecting you from any competition or criticism - because you suck so badly that you can't make it in a real peer-review process...

Earlier, the behind-the-scenes maps have always been justified by "they are only seasonal maps and we want to surprise people so they must be made in secret". But now, apparently, real, full-time maps are made in secret, even when a Real mapmaker is willing to make the map in public. So justify it how you want, the truth is it's complete bullshit.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby ljex on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:59 pm

natty dread wrote:
Gilligan wrote:First off, you aren't the first person to think of doing a "World 3.0" or "World XL" or whatever you want to call it.

Second off, the idea of that map has been brought in front the team before you posted that thread with the idea.

Please, before you go accusing the admins of CC of stealing your idea, you at least need the proper information to back it up.


Oh, by "team" you mean the Super-Secret Foundry #2 - aka. The Privileged Inner-Circle Foundry?

I'm so sorry that I'm just a regular proletarian who has no access to your super secret aristocratic forums, but I'm still going to call bullshit on that. Even if it was posted on your "team forums" or whatever, I'm the one who posted my thread in the actual, real foundry. I'm the one who put my work for public review, not pussyfooting behind closed doors...

Why don't you make your draft, put it next to mine, and we'll let the community decide which map is worthy of being on the site? Or are you afraid your map won't survive in honest competition? Is that why you guys make maps behind the scenes, because you couldn't make it in the regular foundry? Actually, that makes a lot of sense now that I think of it. Maps like Easter would never have made it through the Real Foundry process. That's why you guys need to make maps behind the scenes, with the admin protecting you from any competition or criticism - because you suck so badly that you can't make it in a real peer-review process...

Earlier, the behind-the-scenes maps have always been justified by "they are only seasonal maps and we want to surprise people so they must be made in secret". But now, apparently, real, full-time maps are made in secret, even when a Real mapmaker is willing to make the map in public. So justify it how you want, the truth is it's complete bullshit.


Why not offer to help with this map that will be developed in the private foundry?

Also i have to agree with natty about the special occasion maps, their quality is far lower then maps which go through the standard foundry process.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Leehar on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:28 pm

Just as an aside, weren't you part of the Team previously natty, what happened to cause all this disgruntlement within you?
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Slavivlad on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:33 pm

Cool tings.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Ace Rimmer on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:44 pm

natty dread wrote:Earlier, the behind-the-scenes maps have always been justified by "they are only seasonal maps and we want to surprise people so they must be made in secret". But now, apparently, real, full-time maps are made in secret, even when a Real mapmaker is willing to make the map in public. So justify it how you want, the truth is it's complete bullshit.


Which maps have been made in secret, that are full-time, regular maps?
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Re: Did you know...

Postby IcePack on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:50 pm

Ace Rimmer wrote:
natty dread wrote:Earlier, the behind-the-scenes maps have always been justified by "they are only seasonal maps and we want to surprise people so they must be made in secret". But now, apparently, real, full-time maps are made in secret, even when a Real mapmaker is willing to make the map in public. So justify it how you want, the truth is it's complete bullshit.


Which maps have been made in secret, that are full-time, regular maps?


I believe he's referring to the sites version of the map he wanted to make (if I'm not mistaken, I have no first hand knowledge of his statement nor the sites map plans).

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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Serbia on Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:57 pm

Wow, someone gets told no, and instantly a childish fit is thrown, complete with unfounded accusations of theft. What a mature response.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:00 pm

natty dread wrote:
Gilligan wrote:First off, you aren't the first person to think of doing a "World 3.0" or "World XL" or whatever you want to call it.

Second off, the idea of that map has been brought in front the team before you posted that thread with the idea.

Please, before you go accusing the admins of CC of stealing your idea, you at least need the proper information to back it up.


Oh, by "team" you mean the Super-Secret Foundry #2 - aka. The Privileged Inner-Circle Foundry?

I'm so sorry that I'm just a regular proletarian who has no access to your super secret aristocratic forums, but I'm still going to call bullshit on that. Even if it was posted on your "team forums" or whatever, I'm the one who posted my thread in the actual, real foundry. I'm the one who put my work for public review, not pussyfooting behind closed doors...

Why don't you make your draft, put it next to mine, and we'll let the community decide which map is worthy of being on the site? Or are you afraid your map won't survive in honest competition? Is that why you guys make maps behind the scenes, because you couldn't make it in the regular foundry?


Agreed. Let's see what they got as of April 4th the 24th (CHINA TIME) and compare it to natty's.

If they don't agree, then that would be interesting. We wouldn't be able to tell how much they changed their map toward natty's style. Perhaps CC's Map Foundry has turned into a mini-form of crony capitalism.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:01 pm

Serbia wrote:Wow, someone gets told no, and instantly a childish fit is thrown, complete with unfounded accusations of theft. What a mature response.


If natty's allegations are false, then I'll agree with Serbia.

If natty's allegations are true, then at least he's making a stand.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Serbia on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:21 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Serbia wrote:Wow, someone gets told no, and instantly a childish fit is thrown, complete with unfounded accusations of theft. What a mature response.


If natty's allegations are false, then I'll agree with Serbia.

If natty's allegations are true, then at least he's making a stand.


Unfounded* being the key word in my statement. If he can prove his allegations, that's one thing. So far, they are unfounded.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Pedronicus on Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:41 pm

I'm more inclined to believe to word of Natty over a bunch of colour coded admins all towing the party line.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby chapcrap on Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:44 pm

While I do think that natty has a point about the separate foundries, there was no idea theft here.

DiM had World 3.0 before natty's proposed World XL. Of course, natty should know this because he was the second post in DiM's thread.

DiM's: viewtopic.php?f=242&t=159617
natty's: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=168557

As far as them making another behind the scenes, natty posted the map on a Saturday (April 7). Admin doesn't work the weekends, so they wouldn't have even caught wind of it until Monday and he heard back from them on Wednesday (April 11). So, I really doubt that they decided to steal his idea in 2 days time.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Serbia on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:45 pm

Pedronicus wrote:I'm more inclined to believe to word of Natty over a bunch of colour coded admins all towing the party line.


Based on what? I'm more inclined to call BS on a bunch of unproven whining than I am to believe natty just because he's natty. And for the record, I'm a TD, and have nothing to do whatsoever with the map department; in fact, I avoid that area like the plague.
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Re: Did you know...

Postby Night Strike on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:13 pm

natty dread wrote:Also, to clarify things, I'm not quitting CC, I hate those drama threads where people come in gd and are all "look at me I'm quitting" and then they stay away for like 6 weeks tops... If I was quitting CC I wouldn't be here talking about it, I'd just leave.


Subject: bin please

natty dread wrote:Ok so is this map allowed or not?

If I'm not allowed to make this map I'm quitting CC. Or something.


natty dread wrote:So, after I looked into it further, it was made clear to me that the admins had basically denied the map I wanted to make, because when they saw it, they thought it was so awesome they had to steal the idea. They decided they couldn't let someone like me create such an important map for CC, rather they had to give the project to one of their inner-circle lackeys, to develop in secret, behind the scenes. How do I know they hadn't already been developing their map before I posted mine? Well, obviously, they wouldn't have waited for several days before informing me - they would have told me right in the beginning that they had their own project. No, they saw my map and basically stole it.


I'm very impressed that your idea could be stolen 2 weeks before your idea was even posted on CC. =D>
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