Rules Determination

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Rules Determination

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 23, 2012 6:03 pm

Concise description:
  • Remove the rule regarding "unwritten rules" as regards gross abuse of the game.
  • Remove the community guideline regarding not being intentionally annoying.
  • Remove the community guideline regarding bigotry.
  • Remove the community guideline regarding trolling.
  • Remove the community guideline regarding using the foe list.
  • Remove the community guideline regarding flaming.
  • Remove the community guideline regarding nudity and pornography.
  • Remove the rule regarding secret diplomacy.
  • Remove the rule regarding multi accounts.

Specifics/Details:
  • It is clear that the site administration and moderation team are not interested in actually dealing with MASSIVE amounts of gross abuse of the game that are ongoing. The ranching seems to be rampant amongst the top ranks, and TeamCC seems perfectly satisfied with allowing it to continue, rather than consider it the gross abuse that it clearly is. These individuals who dedicate a strong majority of their games to abusing lower-ranking players for the points are not doing a service to the site, they are not doing anything that can actually help the site. They are, however, dissuading customers from returning...this has been shown many times within the C&A forum. The idea that forum violations are punished far more harshly than actual abuse of the game is makes it clear that the site is not interested in the reason paying customers are here. That's a poor strategy, from a financial standpoint. It is time for the site to decide either that they are going to get rid of the rule against this gross abuse of the game or they need to start actually enforcing it as the gross abuse that it clearly is. Does anyone actually think the severe "ranching" that is happening ISN'T a gross abuse of the intent of the game? The idea that this conduct is good for the site is laughable.
  • There are certain individuals within the various fora, although particularly the Off-Topics forum, who seem to view their entire reason for existence to being intentionally annoying. In order to avoid calling out specific individuals, thus perhaps turning this suggestion into one that gets locked, I am more than happy to provide obvious examples to an administrator or moderator who may be interested, if any exist. If the blatantly and painfully obvious situations in which individuals are ONLY trying to be intentionally annoying are not going to be dealt with, then this guideline should be removed. It is time for the site to decide either that they are going to get rid of the guideline against this intentional annoyingness or they need to start actually dealing with it.
  • The idea that "only certain kinds" of bigotry are a problem is ridiculous. The community guidelines clearly state that bigotry includes racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia/sexual orientation bashing, religion bashing, lack of religion bashing, or wishing violence on any group of people, etc...and yet these very things are happening. In fact, I have specifically had discussions with moderators regarding these explicitly happening within the fora, and essentially been told to stop bothering them with it. In addition to these items, how is it acceptable to allow bigotry against the mentally retarded on this site? Why is calling someone a "nigger" more inflammatory or damaging than calling someone a "retard"? It is time for the site to decide either that they are going to get rid of the guideline against all bigotry or they need to start actually dealing with it consistently.
  • According to the community guidelines, trolling is the intentional attempt to cause chaos and includes a great number of items such as if your post's intent was to provoke another user into an emotional response, to get under their skin or to otherwise piss them off, you're baiting them and don't flog a dead horse...if a discussion is over, it's over and FINALLY it states that there is little that is more annoying than a troll and that this will get you removed from the CC community quicker than almost anything else. Well that's just flat-out laughable. The concept of punishment for trolling in the fora of nonexistent. Trolling within the fora is rampant from a number of users. Again, in order to avoid this suggestion being locked, I am not going to name names. But the consistent posters within the fora can certainly point to blatant and painful examples of this. In some cases, it is endless. It is time for the site to decide either that they are going to get rid of the guideline against the very real cases of trolling or they need to start actually dealing with it.
  • The idea that the foe list is promoted as an actual fix to avoiding individuals with whom you do not want to play games on ConquerClub is ridiculous, given that the foe list does not even work properly in doing that. Stop promoting the foe list within the guidelines and otherwise when accepted suggestions to fix it have been sitting in the accepted list for nearly five years.
  • The moderators cannot even be consistent within their handling of flaming. At times, a moderator will simply edit out a user's flame and at other times, the user will get hammered for it. It has become clear to me over time that this happens due to pure favoritism on the part of the moderation team individuals, and it is ridiculous. It is time for the site to decide either that they are going to get rid of the guideline against the very real cases of flaming or they need to start actually dealing with it consistently from case to case.
  • Why is written pornography acceptable on this site, but photographic pornography is not? When I have complained about instances of CLEAR written pornography on this site, I was told to "shut up about it and hopefully it will filter off the front page". Frankly, written pornography has the capability to be far more explicit than photographic pornography...given that minors use this site, it is time for the site to decide either that they are going to deal with all instances of very real cases of pornography or they need to start actually dealing with it consistently from case to case.
  • The moderation team can't seem to make up their mind on this one. In some cases, the use of a foreign language in game chat is immediately deemed to be against the rules. In some cases, the odd determination is made that "if it's not diplomacy, then it's not secret diplomacy"...which of course is a thoroughly illogical stance to take, given that if I don't understand the language, then how do I know if it's diplomacy or not? And if I can use a translator to figure out if it's diplomacy or not, then it's clearly NOT secret diplomacy, because all anyone has to do is run it through the translator. So make up your minds, moderators...find some consistency here and stop treating this issue based on whim and favoritism. If the moderators aren't even able to handle something as plainly simple as this with any consistency, how can they possibly be expected to handle the more difficult issues with any?
  • The site claims that the first rule of the site is "no multis". But they don't actually do anything to discourage multis. In fact, it has become obvious that multis are generally considered a good thing by the site's ownership, because multis means more money since the only actually punishment for having a multi is to have to rebuy the premium. Thus, multis are obviously just a cash cow. They may line the pockets of the owner, but they do nothing to aid the site itself. In fact, recent determinations by the moderation team have found that it's perfectly acceptable to create a multi for the sole purpose of baiting other users. There is no punishment for the multi for this action...but they have a decent chance of getting their "target" a ban. This is a logical stance to take?

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • First of all, I expect this suggestion to be taken seriously, as I am making this suggestion seriously. This is not intended as a frivolous suggestion.
  • What I am essentially calling for here is enforcement of the alleged rules of ConquerClub with consistency and common sense (which appear to be lacking entirely) or getting rid of them entirely. Consistency and the use of common sense are not mutually exclusive. Consistency does not equate to zero-tolerance (such as the idiotic idea that any use of the word "f*ck" is an offensive one and that banning the word itself would actually do anything to improve the site). As Ralph Waldo Emerson once said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". What happens on this site is absolutely "foolish consistency" (when there is any consistency at all, that is), as opposed to useful, moderated, intelligent consistency.
  • I keep thinking that King Achilles will eventually get tired of having to ignore the way so many of his moderators are allowing their friends to get away with cheating, as well as blatant cheating and serious abuse of the game on their own. But it's obvious he's not, so I've decided something needs to change.
  • And then there are the punishments that don't actually involve any punishment at all. If someone is found to be farming, the punishment is now that they're banned from playing against newbies. This isn't a punishment and, in fact, it ENCOURAGES farming. Why would anyone be threatened by this punishment? That's like telling a bankrobber that the only punishment for his actions is that he can no longer enter banks. Big freaking deal, he's already rich from the bank robbery.
  • And finally, threads where the moderation team is legitimately being criticized are almost always locked once the thread gets to the point where it's clear the moderation team just wants to end the discussion because they realize they have no legitimate defense for their actions or statements. Sometimes, it happens almost immediately, never mind whether there may actually be a legitimate defense...they just don't want the issue discussed. I suppose you can fall back on the idea that "all complaints about the moderators are trolling" argument (this was a statement by King Achilles to me), but that would only work if you were actually doing something about trolling to begin with. This is a primary example of shitty customer service...in fact, it almost defines it. The real definition doesn't limit to just this though...a view of the Conquer Club administration and moderation teams does provide an outstanding example of shitty customer service. There is no question that Conquer Club is dying, and there is similarly no question as to why. Perhaps, if this suggestion is taken seriously, that can be corrected.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 23, 2012 8:02 pm

just some information I want to attach to this. I have reported someone calling me a retard a couple times recently. The response I got was...

It depends on the context. If it is used as a derogatory term for mentally disabled people it is not ok, in other instances it's decided case by case.
Leaves a lot of room for "It depends on who said it".... Under this explanation, I could use the N word as much as I want, so long as I do not use it in a derogatory term to a specific of people?

Also, I received an infraction for typing...

How do you know the people in the bottom picture were wrong? What is your evidence


That is the full post, no editing, no ninja, straight up start to finish, and it was cited as bigotry, yet the thread "Americans are C*nts...no big deal. And it doesn't matter what I was responding to. They are basic and direct questions and not statements. I just asked the person because I wanted to hear the individuals response, and I got in trouble about 10 minutes after I made the post (even though I deleted it and the post no longer exists). I hope it gets reversed, because that is completely dishonest and unfair.

These are great examples of what Woody is talking about
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby agentcom on Thu May 24, 2012 12:34 am

Woodruff, very interesting post. I'm not sure if I agree that all rules should be done away with, but you do make good points.

I do want to know how you reconcile the following statements, though:

The idea that forum violations are punished far more harshly than actual abuse of the game is makes it clear that the site is not interested in the reason paying customers are here.


The concept of punishment for trolling in the fora of nonexistent.


Is it because they are punished for other forum violations than trolling?

I also found your points about "written pornography" very interesting. Never thought about that before. I think a case can be made that visual pornography is different/worse, though.

Again, I don't know if no rules is the answer. I would think that CC shouldn't be a site that parents should worry about their kids being on. Then again, I'm not sure that that's really the case right now.

I don't have time to go too deep on this now. One thing that might work against you is that your suggestion, in a way, is ONE suggestion: get rid of the rules (I know I'm simplifying). But in another way, it's several suggestions because it talks about amending all manner of forum rules. This will make it really hard to have discussions on where each rule should end up (assuming they're not completely done away with).
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby Woodruff on Thu May 24, 2012 1:02 pm

agentcom wrote:I do want to know how you reconcile the following statements, though:

The idea that forum violations are punished far more harshly than actual abuse of the game is makes it clear that the site is not interested in the reason paying customers are here.


The concept of punishment for trolling in the fora of nonexistent.


Is it because they are punished for other forum violations than trolling?


Precisely correct. Trolling is essentially not punished, even though it is abundantly present in egregious forms.

agentcom wrote:I also found your points about "written pornography" very interesting. Never thought about that before. I think a case can be made that visual pornography is different/worse, though.
Again, I don't know if no rules is the answer.


I can understand that...yet, if there IS a rule (which there is), why wouldn't written be a part of that? Particularly when written stuff HAS appeared on the site and been allowed.

agentcom wrote:I don't have time to go too deep on this now. One thing that might work against you is that your suggestion, in a way, is ONE suggestion: get rid of the rules (I know I'm simplifying). But in another way, it's several suggestions because it talks about amending all manner of forum rules. This will make it really hard to have discussions on where each rule should end up (assuming they're not completely done away with).


My actual suggestion is to get rid of the rules. However, I recognize that the powers that be are not likely to want to do so (for obvious reasons), and so I have also provided what I believe to be important points in making those rules relevant/more relevant if that is their decision. I didn't want to enact a suggestion for each one, as I felt that would result in an accusation of spamming/trolling against me (as has already been hinted at).
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby agentcom on Fri May 25, 2012 10:25 am

Woodruff wrote:
My actual suggestion is to get rid of the rules. However, I recognize that the powers that be are not likely to want to do so (for obvious reasons), and so I have also provided what I believe to be important points in making those rules relevant/more relevant if that is their decision. I didn't want to enact a suggestion for each one, as I felt that would result in an accusation of spamming/trolling against me (as has already been hinted at).


Haha, OK then. I think it's BS that anyone could accuse you of any wrong in making this suggestion. You obviously put time and thought into it. Most of the commentators here will appreciate that. And for those that don't: screw 'em.

I, too, think that there are problems with how the rules are written and enforced. Not necessarily that they are poorly written or that they aren't enforced, but that they aren't enforced as written. I've seen indications that the mods have guidelines that they use that are not made public. No one has ever refuted this when I've brought it up, but nor have I seen explicit confirmation of this. I think a good starting point would be to get those made public.

I like that there are some rules on this site, but I don't know how to rectify that with the fact that everyone is going to disagree on where lines should be drawn. The example, I most often use is that I don't see the difference between "nigger", "faggot" and "cunt". In my opinion "cunt" falls in the middle in terms of offensiveness, but it is the least punished. Someone from England probably thinks the first two are the most offensive. Many people obviously have differing interpretations of the offensiveness of the first one (though for greatly different reasons).

I also don't mind some (limited) moderator discretion. I would just like to see what guidelines the mods are using when exercising this discretion. But that goes back to publishing these moderator guidelines.

At the end of the day, I also respect that the powers that be can run this website as they see fit. We can vote with our fingers or our dollars and criticize or not use this site. I respect that this forum exists to have this discussion. But I encourage the moderators and owner of this site to continue listening to this discussion, as it is clear to me that many of the more vocal members of this site see a problem in this area.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby deathcomesrippin on Mon May 28, 2012 6:52 am

I just want to add that from my perspective:

- Unwritten rules is a bit vague. and by a bit I mean quite.
- Intentionally annoying. Again, a bit vague.
- Trolling should be dealt with by each individual group of moderators in each forum, I think. I know we deal with our own trolls but don't handle any other groups.
- Foe list isn't really a rule, more like an option that doesn't work as advertised. There is no rule that tells you to foe someone. We suggest it. And, it does stop you from having to read their posts and chat.
- Flaming- again, that is moderator group specific.
- Written pornography: do you mean when someone writes something sexually explicit, or more like a sexual flame? If it was truly penthouse forums style writing, I wouldn't see why it wouldn't be treated the same. I have never personally come across this. That would be weird. As for sexual flaming posts, I would assume it would fall under trolling or flaming.
- Secret Diplomacy is enforced when it can be proven. It's super tough to prove secret diplomacy, and it's a bit biased for a person in the game to actually look at whether it was secret diplomacy or just bad luck of being stuck in the wrong place between two players. As for foreign languages, I agree that all foreign language that each player cannot speak should be disallowed in a game regardless of the context of the conversation.

Personally I think the multi and bigotry rules are fine, but I am always open to discussion about this kind of thing.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby jgordon1111 on Mon May 28, 2012 9:20 am

Get the details worked out woodruff you are on the right track, And thank you for giving an honest opinion DCR.

Oh just in case beings it hasnt been said,lets keep it civil for those who do like to flame and bait.

please start your own counter thread.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby chapcrap on Mon May 28, 2012 12:17 pm

jgordon1111 wrote:Get the details worked out woodruff you are on the right track, And thank you for giving an honest opinion DCR.

Oh just in case beings it hasnt been said,lets keep it civil for those who do like to flame and bait.

please start your own counter thread.

Don't start your own counter thread. Debates about this ridiculous, anarchy suggestion, should be made here, not in a new thread. There is no point in a new thread.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby deathcomesrippin on Mon May 28, 2012 12:23 pm

jgordon1111 wrote:Get the details worked out woodruff you are on the right track, And thank you for giving an honest opinion DCR.

Oh just in case beings it hasnt been said,lets keep it civil for those who do like to flame and bait.

please start your own counter thread.


Just an opinion though. Not gospel.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby jgordon1111 on Mon May 28, 2012 12:35 pm

chapcrap wrote:
jgordon1111 wrote:Get the details worked out woodruff you are on the right track, And thank you for giving an honest opinion DCR.

Oh just in case beings it hasnt been said,lets keep it civil for those who do like to flame and bait.

please start your own counter thread.

Don't start your own counter thread. Debates about this ridiculous, anarchy suggestion, should be made here, not in a new thread. There is no point in a new thread.



Ah chap it seems we are always on opposites of every view why is that,And can you be more specific about what is anarchist with this suggestion.

The view is change them make them better, or drop them beings there is not a even enforcement of them. ergo making the rules even for everyone or not have them at all.

Not so much anarchy to that really,just an even playing field so to speak.

@ DCR that is why I specifically said honest opinion.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 28, 2012 1:13 pm

deathcomesrippin wrote:I just want to add that from my perspective:


Thank you, deathcomesrippin...I appreciate the input from your perspective as a moderator.

deathcomesrippin wrote:- Trolling should be dealt with by each individual group of moderators in each forum, I think.


I can agree with that.

deathcomesrippin wrote:- Foe list isn't really a rule, more like an option that doesn't work as advertised.


Sure, I agree. Good point. Of course, the suggestion that fixes it in that regard has been sitting in the SUBMITTED SUGGESTIONS forum for almost five years now.

deathcomesrippin wrote:- Written pornography: do you mean when someone writes something sexually explicit, or more like a sexual flame? If it was truly penthouse forums style writing, I wouldn't see why it wouldn't be treated the same. I have never personally come across this. That would be weird. As for sexual flaming posts, I would assume it would fall under trolling or flaming.


Nope, it definitely wasn't a flame. And when I complained about it, I was specifically told to just ignore it and let it drift off of the front page (which it thankfully did, eventually). But still.
Last edited by Woodruff on Mon May 28, 2012 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 28, 2012 1:15 pm

chapcrap wrote:
jgordon1111 wrote:Get the details worked out woodruff you are on the right track, And thank you for giving an honest opinion DCR.

Oh just in case beings it hasnt been said,lets keep it civil for those who do like to flame and bait.

please start your own counter thread.

Don't start your own counter thread. Debates about this ridiculous, anarchy suggestion, should be made here, not in a new thread. There is no point in a new thread.


I actually agree that they should be in this thread, as long as they're constructive.

And I'm not REALLY talking about anarchy here...if you read the suggestion, you'd realize that. I also don't believe it's ridiculous to expect moderation that is actually considered and consistent.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby chapcrap on Mon May 28, 2012 5:04 pm

jgordon1111 wrote:And can you be more specific about what is anarchist with this suggestion

Woodruff wrote:My actual suggestion is to get rid of the rules.

This is what anarchy is, no rules. No law. No governance.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 28, 2012 5:15 pm

chapcrap wrote:
jgordon1111 wrote:And can you be more specific about what is anarchist with this suggestion

Woodruff wrote:My actual suggestion is to get rid of the rules.

This is what anarchy is, no rules. No law. No governance.


So you read one line of the suggestion and decided that was completely the situation in black and white...and didn't try to use any sort of understanding or intuition about the intent of the suggestion?

You should apply to be a moderator.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby chapcrap on Mon May 28, 2012 5:32 pm

Woodruff wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
jgordon1111 wrote:And can you be more specific about what is anarchist with this suggestion

Woodruff wrote:My actual suggestion is to get rid of the rules.

This is what anarchy is, no rules. No law. No governance.


So you read one line of the suggestion and decided that was completely the situation in black and white...and didn't try to use any sort of understanding or intuition about the intent of the suggestion?

You should apply to be a moderator.

I did read it all. And I read the part where you clarified by saying you wanted to get rid of rules. So, if you didn't mean that, then why did you say it?

I'll ignore the bait. :D

Either way, I don't know why you have a problem with what I said. If you do, you should try to correct me or say you mistyped. I'm just quoting you.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby jgordon1111 on Mon May 28, 2012 9:55 pm

Why does this never end,everyone wants everything in black and white. The rules are not black and white why pretend that they are enforced in a consistent manner.

Chap this is only my point of view here no one else's,you say anarchy because it was mentioned to throw the rules out.

But you bypassed the context of the post.


The rules are being enforced in an extreme biased way. Some are allowed to thumb their noses with no penalties,others are punished quickly for the same infractions.

That is the forerunner of the anarchy that you wish to avoid,when the governance of anything is biased, it is anarchy thinly disguised and mislabeled.

I am not going to spend the time to bring in the pages of favoritism,or the counter pages of those not being favored,If you think it is not happening you are in error.

Therefore I believe what is being asked by the OP,is that reform and change happen where the rules are enforced and enforced equally.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby agentcom on Mon May 28, 2012 11:57 pm

deathcomesrippin wrote:- Secret Diplomacy is enforced when it can be proven. It's super tough to prove secret diplomacy, and it's a bit biased for a person in the game to actually look at whether it was secret diplomacy or just bad luck of being stuck in the wrong place between two players. As for foreign languages, I agree that all foreign language that each player cannot speak should be disallowed in a game regardless of the context of the conversation.



This is basically how it is. If you see another language being spoken, you can report it. The mods will look into it just as with any other SD claim. It could be that it's not actually SD (if the talk has nothing to do with the game), just like any other SD claim.

I've only run across this once, and all I had to do was politely ask for English only in chat and it didn't happen again. So, I agree with the foreign language rule as it is written and have never seen a C&A case on it, so I don't know if there's any problem with enforcement.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby agentcom on Tue May 29, 2012 12:00 am

Jgordon,

I think the proposal could rightly, if simplistically, be described as anarchy. Of course, there will always be some rules, but this suggestion seriously tries to keep them to a bare minimum. Woodruff himself said as much.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby deathcomesrippin on Tue May 29, 2012 5:58 am

I think Woodruff's suggestion was more to try to standardize the rules, with the throwing away of the rules as more of a tongue in cheek "if you dont change just get rid of them" line of thought.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby jgordon1111 on Tue May 29, 2012 11:27 am

deathcomesrippin wrote:I think Woodruff's suggestion was more to try to standardize the rules, with the throwing away of the rules as more of a tongue in cheek "if you dont change just get rid of them" line of thought.


That is the way I took it. Not an actual call for anarchy.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby deathcomesrippin on Tue May 29, 2012 12:05 pm

jgordon1111 wrote:
deathcomesrippin wrote:I think Woodruff's suggestion was more to try to standardize the rules, with the throwing away of the rules as more of a tongue in cheek "if you dont change just get rid of them" line of thought.


That is the way I took it. Not an actual call for anarchy.


I hope not.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby chapcrap on Tue May 29, 2012 12:11 pm

We'll know when we see his avatar change...

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Re: Rules Determination

Postby agentcom on Tue May 29, 2012 1:34 pm

jgordon1111 wrote:
deathcomesrippin wrote:I think Woodruff's suggestion was more to try to standardize the rules, with the throwing away of the rules as more of a tongue in cheek "if you dont change just get rid of them" line of thought.


That is the way I took it. Not an actual call for anarchy.


That's what I thought, too. But his response was the one chap quoted. He said he does want to get rid of a lot of the rules.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby TheGeneral2112 on Thu May 31, 2012 7:51 pm

I am thegeneral and I support this suggestion.
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Re: Rules Determination

Postby Pedronicus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:03 am

Nice thread Woodster.
7 days from you posting such a great list of things for the admin to consider and so far, the amount of admin responses sum up why this site is going down the shitter.
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