San Marino [Quenched]

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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:11 pm

Hmmm... I'm not too sure how I feel about the neutral armies - it just feels like there are a lot of them, and it's not as if this is the biggest map in the world in the first place :-k

I think a better solution would be to create 3 starting positions, as follows:

Starting Position 1
    Montegiardino
    La Venezia
    Gualdicciolo
    Corianino
    Ca'Vagnetto
Starting Position 2
    Caldese
    Chiesanuova
    Gaviano
    Le Grotte
    Fiorina
Starting Position 3
    Ciribiei
    Ca'Vecchia
    Acquaviva
    Ca'Agostino
    Valle Giurata

This breaks up all the small bonus regions, and ensures that in 2/3 player games, nobody will get a small bonus from the drop (and that each player will have at least 1 torri, but not all of them). The territories not included in starting positions are then divided equally among the players, so the rest of the map will be allocated randomly. The start positions are ignored if there are more players than positions, so will not effect larger player games, where it can be argued that the drop is less of an influencing factor.

I'd be inclined to leave 2 neutrals on Borgo Maggiore and Serravalle to ensure that nobody starts with the biggest bonuses in any case.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:19 pm

MrBenn wrote:Hmmm... I'm not too sure how I feel about the neutral armies - it just feels like there are a lot of them, and it's not as if this is the biggest map in the world in the first place :-k

I think a better solution would be to create 3 starting positions, as follows:

This breaks up all the small bonus regions, and ensures that in 2/3 player games, nobody will get a small bonus from the drop (and that each player will have at least 1 torri, but not all of them). The territories not included in starting positions are then divided equally among the players, so the rest of the map will be allocated randomly. The start positions are ignored if there are more players than positions, so will not effect larger player games, where it can be argued that the drop is less of an influencing factor.

I'd be inclined to leave 2 neutrals on Borgo Maggiore and Serravalle to ensure that nobody starts with the biggest bonuses in any case.


Ben I don't agree. The problem is not the starting positions, but the ease by which some of the 2 and 3 territory bonuses can be conquered when one starts as well as starting with a torri bonus.

Putting 2 neutrals on each torri territory effectively solves both the problems. Also note that the main problem is not with Borgo Maggiore and Serravalle, the biggest bonuses, as these are tough to conquer, but with the smaller bonuses.

I have played some doubles and triples on San Marino with the new settings and I think the gameplay is much more balanced.

However I am looking at Game 4542098 which is the game which you are playing with the new settings right now Ben. I guess the experience from this game is what triggered the comments above. Something is not normal in this game. Apart from the 2 neutrals on the torri territories, there are also 10 territories with 3 neutrals on them which should not be there! Those 10 territories should be equally distributed among players 1 and 2. So I guess that's why you have the feeling that there are too many neutrals because in fact there are 10 territories which should not be neutral. I don't know if it's something to do with the XML, but that's not normal and is something that I will have to look into.

Edit: Is it possible that that particular tournament game was created before the XML was updated at that this somehow messed things up because in the new games I started I did not have this problem?
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby jwithington on Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:19 am

Yeah, 17 neutrals over here:

Game 4555472

Ruben Cassar wrote: Something is not normal in this game. Apart from the 2 neutrals on the torri territories, there are also 10 territories with 3 neutrals on them which should not be there! Those 10 territories should be equally distributed among players 1 and 2. So I guess that's why you have the feeling that there are too many neutrals because in fact there are 10 territories which should not be neutral. I don't know if it's something to do with the XML, but that's not normal and is something that I will have to look into.

Edit: Is it possible that that particular tournament game was created before the XML was updated at that this somehow messed things up because in the new games I started I did not have this problem?
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:59 am

The starting neutrals (as designated in the XML) are excluded from the territories that are allocated as player starts.

In 1v1 games, 1/3 of the 'allocatable' territories are assigned neutral. In these games then, you've got 1 neutral in each area, and then the additional neutrals in 1v1 games. The starting positions I proposed were purely to counter the massive amount of neutrals in 1v1 games (and would provide a fairer distribution in 3p games). Basically, each player would have at least 1 territory in each of the small areas that would prevent anybody getting the small bonuses from the drop...
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:36 am

MrBenn wrote:The starting neutrals (as designated in the XML) are excluded from the territories that are allocated as player starts.

In 1v1 games, 1/3 of the 'allocatable' territories are assigned neutral. In these games then, you've got 1 neutral in each area, and then the additional neutrals in 1v1 games. The starting positions I proposed were purely to counter the massive amount of neutrals in 1v1 games (and would provide a fairer distribution in 3p games). Basically, each player would have at least 1 territory in each of the small areas that would prevent anybody getting the small bonuses from the drop...


Okay I was not aware of this 1/3 neutral rule for 1vs1. Can this be turned off for specific maps?
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:34 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:Okay I was not aware of this 1/3 neutral rule for 1vs1. Can this be turned off for specific maps?

Unfortunately not.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby GallantPellham on Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:06 am

The 2 neutrals works great for 2v2 games, Much improved from the original play.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby oaktown on Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:30 pm

MrBenn wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:Okay I was not aware of this 1/3 neutral rule for 1vs1. Can this be turned off for specific maps?

Unfortunately not.

I've played a couple of 1v1 games on this map, and I don't actually mind all of the staring neutrals. It's different, and all those neutrals can be a bit annoying at first look, but it's not unbalanced.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ruben Cassar on Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:44 pm

oaktown wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
Ruben Cassar wrote:Okay I was not aware of this 1/3 neutral rule for 1vs1. Can this be turned off for specific maps?

Unfortunately not.

I've played a couple of 1v1 games on this map, and I don't actually mind all of the staring neutrals. It's different, and all those neutrals can be a bit annoying at first look, but it's not unbalanced.


Yes, I think it is the best balance possible with the current rules. Removing the neutrals makes it unbalanced.
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Re: San Marino [Beta]

Postby Ace Rimmer on Wed May 27, 2009 9:32 am

No comments in over a month - time to take it out of beta?

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Re: San Marino [Quenched]

Postby ManBungalow on Thu May 10, 2012 11:39 am

The border between Ca' Rigo and Fiorentino is super-ambiguous given the position of the mountain.
Given the style of the graphics, it should take only a matter of minutes to make a fix, and could then be uploaded.
I'll even make the change if some cartographer gives me the go-ahead.

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Re: San Marino [Quenched]

Postby ManBungalow on Sun May 27, 2012 5:29 am

As there have been no responses, I'll show you a quick solution:

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Re: San Marino [Quenched]

Postby Nola_Lifer on Sun May 27, 2012 4:56 pm

Hasn't been a problem for 3 years.
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Re: San Marino [Quenched]

Postby ManBungalow on Mon May 28, 2012 12:17 pm

Nola_Lifer wrote:Hasn't been a problem for 3 years.

I think it's a problem now, though clearly not the end of the world.
It really doesn't take long to address a problem like this, and there's no reason not to.
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Re: San Marino [Quenched]

Postby chapcrap on Mon May 28, 2012 5:22 pm

ManBungalow wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:Hasn't been a problem for 3 years.

I think it's a problem now, though clearly not the end of the world.
It really doesn't take long to address a problem like this, and there's no reason not to.

I would agree with ManB on this. I have been had by this before.
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