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[CC3] IA vs. HH - [23-18] - Final 7/1

Finished challenges between two competitive clans.

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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby allinpoker1980 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:55 am

If you buy into the CC clan scene, then you understand the strides that have been taken to make wars as fair and as skill-based as possible. Think about it: no speed, no freestyle, no nukes, no beta, unlimited restrictions, and the 12 hour fog rule. All of those rules seek to eliminate or reduce the luck factor as best as possible so that the outcome of a war reflects clan skill and team strategy as often as possible. This is known.





Tactics like this are used all the time when a team in outgunned especially in competitive sports. Underdogs often slow down the tempo of the game to up the "luck factor" and stand a fighting chance. If you buy into the competitive nature of oh,.....I dont know professional anything then you understand the strides that have been taken to make comeptitive sports as skill-based as possible. Think about it, practices, high priced salaries, franchise tags, etc. However some of the greatest sports upsets in history are by teams who although outgunned, deal with the rules given, and find a way to maximize their odds for just long enough that they may be able to squeak out a win. To somehow suggest this tactic is ok and even admired in teams playing with hundreds of millions of dollars on the line and somehow looked down upon for a competitive board game is just crazy.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby ahunda on Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:41 am

Well. My apology was meant to quell the fire, and I didnĀ“t want to post on the issue anymore, but since freakns addressed me directly, IĀ“ll just have to reply once more.

Though I donĀ“t think, this discussion will lead to anything. We all know & understand, what HH did here, and why they did it. And I want to thank Master Fenrir for summing this up better than I could hope to, especially this part:

Master Fenrir wrote:I just don't really understand why you seem so surprised that a couple of gamechats ended up less than friendly. You said, "All because I pointed out in an earlier post that two of his clan mates had soured the experience for us." That's kind of a weird thing to say when your map choice could have conceivably soured the experience for every IA player.

That is pretty much spot on. We know, HH were within the rules & within their rights to choose the maps they did. We just didnĀ“t like it, didnĀ“t appreciate it, and we do not respect it. This challenge had turned sour for us, before the first game was filled. So Keefies complaint about us making a couple of games an unpleasant experience for them kind of made me snap ...

Keefie wrote:It is the right of every clan to negociate the terms of a clan war, including the exclusion of certain maps. IA chose not to do this, so every map out there was available to us.

This is just wrong, and you know it. This challenge follows the rules of the Conquerors Cup, and we are not free to negotiate terms freely. You rejected the Fog Courtesy rule for this challenge (and we had to suck it up or walk away), and now you make it sound, as if we only had to ask to exclude certain maps & youĀ“d have agreed to it ?

As for freakns:

I am not sure, if I should be glad or not, that you chose that particular game as your example. The Sydney Quad was one of the most gratifying wins IĀ“ve ever taken part in here @ CC. And in this specific case, IĀ“d have to say: Yes, as a matter of fact, it was dice, that almost killed us in the early rounds of the game (us losing 9v2 attacks, them winning 7v1,2,1,3 - I am sure, all of us have had games like that happen to them), and it was pretty flawless team-play, that brought us back & in the end won the game for us.

It is the one game, that I truly enjoyed in this challenge. The one game, that will stick out as a memorable experience. One of the games, that make it worth playing @ CC (amidst all too many one-sided dice fests). And in my opinion, one of the games as clan challenges should be: Lots of strategising & planning & discussing involved. The complete & exact opposite of a Doodle Quad.

When I joined IA, clans were mostly a business of the real hardcore CC addicts & veteran team players. It was the place, where the toughest competition was to be had, because you were always up against well-tuned teams, who played together regularly. And that was, what people were aiming for in these days: The tough competition, a real competition of skill.

I was part of CLA, when the set-up for CLA League 2 was discussed, when the first guidelines for clan challenges & clan medals were discussed, and all these discussions always centered a good deal on the question how to minimise the luck factor and make it all a competition of skill at the game. Maybe things have changed since then, I myself took a break from CC for almost 2 years, but for me Doodle Quads have no place in a clan challenge.

Now to the question of respect: As pointed out by freakns, HH have been doing pretty well on our home maps. They had us on the brink of defeats on maps like Sydney, Poison Rome, Supermax & Third Crusade, and they won a good deal of games on the old school Risk style maps, and yes, that is something, that I can acknowledge & respect.

But sadly this is not, what I will remember them & this challenge for. For me, this entire challenge is over-shadowed by their map selection, and I will forever remember it as the "Doodle challenge", and that simply kills all respect, that HH could have gained here otherwise (frankly speaking: looking at their performance in some of these games, I donĀ“t even understand, why they felt the need to choose those ridiculous maps, and that is about the nicest thing I can say at this point).

As for beer: He is known as a notorious dice complainer, and this has caused some ruckus in earlier IA challenges already. He at one point offered to leave the clan, if we were concerned about him damaging our reputation, but we decided to stick with him and accept some bad rep in return. Now I personally donĀ“t have a problem with Keefie (or other players) calling beer out. Throw a "dice whining fuckwit" & "numbnuts" in his face right there in Game Chat, and you wonĀ“t hear me complain about it. But making this the central issue of this here clan challenge ?

At one point in the first round it looked like HH would take a 12-8 or 13-7 lead at half time, and apart from beer (who always complains) not a single IA member complained or showed any disrespect or ill feeling towards HH, not one. Not in Chat in any of the games, not here in the thread. And it continued like this, and we just played the games, and we managed to turn around a couple of those games, and as it appears, we will probably now go on to win this challenge, if only by a very small margin.

And then Keefie comes into this thread and makes a post, that somehow puts us as a clan in a bad light. 8-9 challenges they have played, and they were all enjoyable & fun. But this here challenge was unpleasant for them, because of "completely unprovoked nasty, mean spirited remarks in game chat". Sorry. But to this I had to respond.

IA have played 11 or 12 challenges in their history, and none has been as unpleasant for us as this one. Not because of personal conduct of HH players in the games, not because of the result (IA has lost quite a few challenges before, including one real upset land-slide defeat at the hands of FOED), but because of ... ah, yes, we talked about that ...

We obviously have very different stand-points then. For me a bit of dice bitching is a minor annoyance, that can easily be ignored, whilst HHs map selection in this challenge in my eyes is a transgression against the spirit of clan competition, and yes, freakns, I am serious.

But I guess, everything that could be said has been said, and everybody will read & understand, whatever he wants to read & understand. From here on out IĀ“ll simply up-date the scores, but not participate in this discussion anymore.

O:)
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [17-14]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:33 am

Can IA and HH fight about a dozen more wars this year? :D this has been great entertainemnt
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [17-14]

Postby freakns on Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:51 am

@Ahunda, you are nice guy, and i respect you because you always try to stay cool, and no matter how fired up are you about something youll try not to offend anyone. thats classy, for sure. but after beer took a dump on HH skills, whole IA lost right to stand on high moral ground and preach from there. so IA can bitch about map selection all night long, but everything you guys said is not "moral point of view" anymore, its just whining...
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [17-14]

Postby ahunda on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:02 am

I am not trying to take the high ground & preach morals. As I said earlier, we probably would have sucked it up, let the whole thing slide and not started this discussion at all.

What got to me & made me snap, is Keefie taking the high ground & preaching morals here. And that I wonĀ“t take, not from a guy, who chooses Doodle Quads in a clan challenge & is smug about it.

If you think, that one player bitching around in Game Chat (I donĀ“t know, where he took a dump on their skills. As far as I could see, he only took a dump on their choice of maps. And his usual dice nonsense.) is the real big deal here, then we simply disagree.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [18-15]

Postby John Deere on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:02 pm

After all this good reading, i had to see HH's home maps. And from what i looked at i noticed 3 maps that you dont normally see in clan wars. 3.... really, i would have thought almost all of them where quads on 20 region maps etc. I didnt study the selection so please let me know if i missed something, I dont get it.....
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [18-15]

Postby IcePack on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:38 pm

John Deere wrote:After all this good reading, i had to see HH's home maps. And from what i looked at i noticed 3 maps that you dont normally see in clan wars. 3.... really, i would have thought almost all of them where quads on 20 region maps etc. I didnt study the selection so please let me know if i missed something, I dont get it.....


I'm inclined to agree...there aren't many here that are out of the ordinary and I find it kinda funny anyone would take this much offense to a handful of "flip a coin" maps from your opponents home map.

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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby Keefie on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:50 pm

ahunda wrote:
Keefie wrote:It is the right of every clan to negociate the terms of a clan war, including the exclusion of certain maps. IA chose not to do this, so every map out there was available to us.

This is just wrong, and you know it. This challenge follows the rules of the Conquerors Cup, and we are not free to negotiate terms freely. You rejected the Fog Courtesy rule for this challenge (and we had to suck it up or walk away), and now you make it sound, as if we only had to ask to exclude certain maps & youĀ“d have agreed to it ?


Take a look at the AoC-1st Regt war. They agreed extra rules which included the exclusion of certain maps, so yes, you only had to ask.

As for the fog rule it's optional. HH are not used to playing it, infact the majority of clan wars don't seem to use it. I was worried that if I said yes to it some mistakes would be made that would cost us games. I do believe that it was observed in the vast majority of games.

Oh and please can you clarify where I have been smug ?
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby ahunda on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:16 pm

Keefie wrote:Take a look at the AoC-1st Regt war. They agreed extra rules which included the exclusion of certain maps, so yes, you only had to ask.

Well, the thought would not have occured to me. Before this challenge I simply could not have imagined a clan choosing such maps. WeĀ“ll make a point of it in future challenges.

Keefie wrote:As for the fog rule it's optional. HH are not used to playing it, infact the majority of clan wars don't seem to use it. I was worried that if I said yes to it some mistakes would be made that would cost us games. I do believe that it was observed in the vast majority of games.

No complaints here.

Keefie wrote:Oh and please can you clarify where I have been smug ?

2012-05-10 03:16:37 - Keefie: I think my map choices show that I was probably respecting IA's abilities too much.
2012-05-10 03:17:32 - Keefie: Still for a top clan like yourselves the map shouldn't matter too much ;) hehehe

I asked a native English speaker, if "smug" was the right word, and the answer was: "Yeah, I think, heĀ“s been very smug about it throughout."

But itĀ“s ok. IĀ“m out of here. IĀ“m feeling completely disoriented. When I showed the 1st set of HH games to our clan and some friends in other clans, without any comment, all reactions were the same: Wtf ? Are you serious ? Are these guys for real ? I canĀ“t believe, they would pull a stunt like that ...

Now it appears I landed in a parallel universe, where people perceive things very differently. ItĀ“s fine though. IĀ“ll meditate on our wrong-doings & wish everybody here good luck in whatever games & challenges they are playing ...
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [18-15]

Postby fishydance on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:32 pm

I vote for having a rematch to settle this dispute once and for all. It should be a Doodle Quad War.
::flees laughing wildly:: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [18-15]

Postby Keefie on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:39 pm

fishydance wrote:I vote for having a rematch to settle this dispute once and for all. It should be a Doodle Quad War.
::flees laughing wildly:: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You could always come and join HH :lol:
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [18-15]

Postby Johnny Dickshot on Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:03 pm

I had no idea this was causing so much controversy. I'm all good with IA, they are smart, cool players, except for that one guy. Sorry you guys didn't like our map choices, but the best thing to do about it is beat us...which you look close to doing. Respect to you and I look forward to a rematch.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby Crazyirishman on Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:45 pm

The real crime is that nobody has appreciated the greatness of these MF quotes
Master Fenrir wrote:Nothing changes except you go up the ladder and IA slides down because you intentionally luck-fucked them.

That's like signing up for a chess tournament but forcing your opponent to play rock-paper-scissors and wondering why they get pissed.

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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby John Deere on Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:51 pm

Crazyirishman wrote:The real crime is that nobody has appreciated the greatness of these MF quotes
Master Fenrir wrote:Nothing changes except you go up the ladder and IA slides down because you intentionally luck-fucked them.

That's like signing up for a chess tournament but forcing your opponent to play rock-paper-scissors and wondering why they get pissed.



But those statement are considering that IA isn't good enough to curve a 3 game luck factor :? Why is everybody ignoring this? Some people are blowing up about 3 damn games! Hell IA played one random this war. that could have switched it too a 2 game bitch fest :? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [16-13]

Postby Crazyirishman on Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:06 pm

John Deere wrote:
Crazyirishman wrote:The real crime is that nobody has appreciated the greatness of these MF quotes
Master Fenrir wrote:Nothing changes except you go up the ladder and IA slides down because you intentionally luck-fucked them.

That's like signing up for a chess tournament but forcing your opponent to play rock-paper-scissors and wondering why they get pissed.



But those statement are considering that IA isn't good enough to curve a 3 game luck factor :? Why is everybody ignoring this? Some people are blowing up about 3 damn games! Hell IA played one random this war. that could have switched it to a 2 game bitch fest :? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I count 4 if you include Madagascar, but thats irrelevant. I personally wouldn't care if somebody else tried to luck-fuck us, I see it as a sign of giving up before the war even starts, but that's just me. But I can see why some can/would get upset. In this case it's only 3-4 games, but if one planned right they could makes all their home maps into "gee I hope I get to go first and my attack button works rd1." Technically they did nothing wrong, but when you look back at a clan war you like to think of the hard fought battles and comebacks that snagged you the victory, not "boy Luxembourg was a real doozy, I was worried there for a minute" All that aside, I was just pointing out the humor I found in those isolated quotes a couple pages back.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [18-15]

Postby demonfork on Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:53 pm

Johnny Dickshot wrote:I had no idea this was causing so much controversy. I'm all good with IA, they are smart, cool players, except for that one guy. Sorry you guys didn't like our map choices, but the best thing to do about it is beat us...which you look close to doing. Respect to you and I look forward to a rematch.


I don't come off as dumb and am much cooler once you get to know me.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [18-15]

Postby Johnny Dickshot on Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:58 pm

demonfork wrote:
Johnny Dickshot wrote:I had no idea this was causing so much controversy. I'm all good with IA, they are smart, cool players, except for that one guy. Sorry you guys didn't like our map choices, but the best thing to do about it is beat us...which you look close to doing. Respect to you and I look forward to a rematch.


I don't come off as dumb and am much cooler once you get to know me.


I dunno, you are part demon, which is dubious, and as for forks, I just stab myself in the tongue.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [21-15]

Postby ahunda on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:11 am

IA got win 21 & wins the challenge.

Looking at the remaining games, some guesses:

IA win: Rail Europe
HH wins: Conquer Man, Land & Sea
Undecided: Cricket, World Quad

So anything between 22-19 and 24-17 seems possible.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [21-15]

Postby Johnny Dickshot on Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:28 pm

Wp IA. A la prochaine.
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [21-15]

Postby Nicky15 on Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:06 am

Good effort Horsemen =D>
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [21-15]

Postby freakns on Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:35 am

congrats IA :)
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [21-15]

Postby snuden on Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:16 pm

Well played IA!
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [21-16]

Postby Redfelt on Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:06 pm

thanks for the games HH =D>
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [21-16]

Postby Keefie on Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:58 am

Well it looks certain that the final score will be 23-18 to IA. I'm really proud of all of the guys in HH, to get within 3 games of an unlikely victory really says something about the potential we have in this clan.

I'd like to thank Ahunda and his team (with one exception) for being great sports throughout. I know we had our disagreements here in the forum but we won't hold any grudges and I'm sure IA won't either.

Also, thanks to all of the 'outsiders' who have supported HH during this war.

Lastly, I'd just like to wish IA continued success in CC3, not too much though as I have AFOS down to beat you in my prediction :lol:
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Re: [CC3] Immortal Assassins vs. Headless Horsemen [21-16]

Postby fishydance on Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:27 pm

Keefie wrote:Lastly, I'd just like to wish IA continued success in CC3, not too much though as I have AFOS down to beat you in my prediction :lol:


Thanks Keefie! We just wrapped up the World quad to finish the series. Your team made us work for that win! Kudos to all =D>
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