## hellenic wars, bin it

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### hellenic wars, bin it

Map Name:Peloponnesian Wars II
Mapmaker(s):Oneyed
Number of Territories:69
Special Features:this is the first map when players must care who are their "allies" also in non team games.
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made:

Map Image:

gameplay: each player start with one Capital and 4 another regions (8 players), 5 another regions (7 players), 6 another regions (6 players), 7 another regions (5 players). the Neutral regions and Fleets start neutral in each game.

all fleet will start neutral, all independent regions will start neutrals. and here is map with neutral numbers for regions which belongs to any continent. these will be codded everytime as neutrals.

except independent regions and fleet there are 44 regions. 8 are capitals, so 36 to distribute between players. in 8 game = 4 and 4 neutrals. in 7 game = 4 and 8 neutrals. in 6 game = 5 and 6 neutrals. and so on...

now I can see one big problem: between Athenai and Thebai is only 1 region on both attack ways: Athenai - Delion - Thebai or Athenai - Megara - Thebai. so if both will start as 3 neutrals will this solve problem?

last version with changed postions of capitals.
now no capitals are closer then 2 regions. and in each sea is only one capital too, so it looks balanced now.
Click image to enlarge.

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early versions
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thanks to Qwert for his mountains and "window" of enlarge Korinthos and Megara position. also for border around map. qwert gives me permision to use these things. so I do not see problem here.

Oneyed
Last edited by Oneyed on Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:02 pm, edited 18 times in total.

Oneyed

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, updated

I think this should be interesting map with interesting gameplay.

so all help from gameplay experts are welcome. btw, who are good gameplay experts?

also will need help with English. thanks.

Oneyed
Last edited by Oneyed on Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Oneyed

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, updated

What do you mean with "thanks to qwert..."?

Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
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thenobodies80

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, updated

qwert did some of the graphics it looks like.

Oneyed, I am looking at the map, but am having a hard time understanding somethings. But what do you mean about what you said in the special features bit. Why should I care about my non team mates and how is that brought into the map.

koontz1973

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, updated

thenobodies80 wrote:What do you mean with "thanks to qwert..."?

koontz1973 wrote:qwert did some of the graphics it looks like.

I took mountains, Corinth window and border around map from his Peloponnesian Wars map.
koontz1973 wrote:Oneyed, I am looking at the map, but am having a hard time understanding somethings.

what exactly?
koontz1973 wrote:But what do you mean about what you said in the special features bit. Why should I care about my non team mates and how is that brought into the map.

there are 2 main powers. each one is divided to 4 continents and each player will play for one continent. so also in non team games 4 players will play for on power. and this is brought into map by bonuses:

+1 for each 2 enemy regions (so from the oposite power),
- 1 for each 3 regions without their Capitals from 3 rest continents from power for which you play.

example: you play for Sparta, so your allies are Corinthos, Macedonia, Thebes. if you hold 2 regions from Corinthos and 1 region from Macedonia you have -1. but when you take Corinthos (Capital) the negative bonus for Corinthos regions is not more valid...

maybe I will need some help with text.

Oneyed

Oneyed

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

You should start from the large map. Also, you should do your own graphics and not copy them from another map.

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

natty dread wrote:You should start from the large map.

yes. I did small one to see how much space I will have.
natty dread wrote:Also, you should do your own graphics and not copy them from another map.

everything is my work. just mountains, Corinth window and border around map are from qwert. I have permision from him to use these things...

Oneyed

Oneyed

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

So if I understand you correctly, you may get games of 8 players and in those games, it will be like two mini games on the same board with each game trying to win there objective first whilst trying to stop the other one from getting it. Then in a 2 player game, you will have either type of battles or fastest one to the objective will win. What about odd number games? So you can have 2 players starting on one side and the other one on his own. This would not make for good games.

koontz1973

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

koontz1973 wrote:So if I understand you correctly, you may get games of 8 players and in those games, it will be like two mini games on the same board with each game trying to win there objective first whilst trying to stop the other one from getting it.

if the game will not be team game, each player will play alone. only one player could wins. there is never said that players from the same League can not assault each other. just bonuses are set up so. and if you quickly take Capital of member of "your" League you will eliminate him from game and you will have also bigger bonus for his Capital and regions. you just need to find exactly time and situation when attack member of "your" league.
koontz1973 wrote:Then in a 2 player game, you will have either type of battles or fastest one to the objective will win.

?
koontz1973 wrote:What about odd number games? So you can have 2 players starting on one side and the other one on his own. This would not make for good games.

as I wrote upper, the gameplay (bonuses) are set up so. but in 3 players game also these 2 who will play for the same League are rivals. and I think they will not long cooperate...

Oneyed

Oneyed

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

Oneyed wrote:just mountains, Corinth window and border around map are from qwert. I have permision from him to use these things...

Please, ask to qwert to send me a PM or to post here he gave you the permission to use them. Thanks

btw you should ask him the layer for the mountains and not cut/paste them....it will look much better.

Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
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thenobodies80

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

I think you need to accentuate the differences in the two groups of League Members a little better as I'm slightly colorblind, so it's hard for me to differentiate between the colors.

nolefan5311

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

I'll have a good look and see if I can be useful game-play-wise one-eyed.

First gamelay though that springs to mind is maybe a losing condition?

I'm sure you could easy make a border,maybe the corinth box is ok to kind-of replicate as its geographical (you could easilydo a similar inset box in a different style or shape though) but the mountains are gonna be a hard task unless qwert gives you permission (he is active so you can always ask).

Teflon Kris

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

6 capitals are extremely close to each other... for quads few players wont even move(since in theory they can get 0 units drop).

Athenai(and few others) borders 2 seas, does it have harbors on both of them?

Can u consider changing the name of the map?... it doesn't have a lot on common with pelo 1 so a lot of players will be surprised.

P.S. The map has potentials.
Even a little kid knows whats the name of my country... http://youtu.be/XFxjy7f9RpY

Interested in clans? Check out the Fallen!

GoranZ

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

thenobodies80 wrote:Please, ask to qwert to send me a PM or to post here he gave you the permission to use them. Thanks

hope, he wrote you
thenobodies80 wrote:btw you should ask him the layer for the mountains and not cut/paste them....it will look much better.

I work on my own mountains. for now they looks ugly

nolefan5311 wrote:I think you need to accentuate the differences in the two groups of League Members a little better as I'm slightly colorblind, so it's hard for me to differentiate between the colors.

ok,will try to do the best

DJ Teflon wrote:I'll have a good look and see if I can be useful game-play-wise one-eyed.

sounds great. thanks
DJ Teflon wrote:First gamelay though that springs to mind is maybe a losing condition?

there is losing condition. written in Objectives (maybe wrong place...): When your Capital falls all is lost!
DJ Teflon wrote:I'm sure you could easy make a border,maybe the corinth box is ok to kind-of replicate as its geographical (you could easilydo a similar inset box in a different style or shape though) but the mountains are gonna be a hard task unless qwert gives you permission (he is active so you can always ask).

except Corinth box I will do everything myself. the Corinth box has a little different look as qwerts. I already have permision.

GoranZ wrote:6 capitals are extremely close to each other...

I´ve tried to go according to history. Sparta, Athenai must stay, but I believe the others could be change...
GoranZ wrote:for quads few players wont even move(since in theory they can get 0 units drop).

this is realy theory. in 8 games each has 4 regions and Capital, in 6 games each has 6 regions and Capital, in 4 games each has 9 regions and capital - here it looks more reality as theory could be in 4 games more regions neutral from start?

or I can do negative bonus "-1 for each 4 regions without their Capitals of the same League members...
GoranZ wrote:Athenai(and few others) borders 2 seas, does it have harbors on both of them?

now I see what you mean. no they have harbour where have anchor. I did not saw way how to made sea borders more clear. will be enough when in legend I will mention that harbour is in the sea where is anchor located?
GoranZ wrote:Can u consider changing the name of the map?... it doesn't have a lot on common with pelo 1 so a lot of players will be surprised.

yes. but how? this is Peloponnesian wars. will think about name.
GoranZ wrote:P.S. The map has potentials.

thanks. I wish to finish it

Oneyed

Oneyed

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

Your English is pretty good, but if there's any problems I'll be happy to help with that aspect.

So far only one mistake: "Fleets lose 1 army per turn" not "Fleets lost 1 army per turn" but I'll have a closer look at the end of the week.

It would be nice to have a map that reflects the real strategic issues in the Pelo War. Good work!

Dukasaur

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

Having the losing condition as not holding a capital, and then having some capitals so close is going to cause problems. Some of the capitals are only separated by one territory.

nolefan5311

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

Dukasaur wrote:Your English is pretty good, but if there's any problems I'll be happy to help with that aspect.

So far only one mistake: "Fleets lose 1 army per turn" not "Fleets lost 1 army per turn" but I'll have a closer look at the end of the week.

thanks for help with English. you know how it is if language is not used often
Dukasaur wrote:It would be nice to have a map that reflects the real strategic issues in the Pelo War. Good work!

unfortunately the name of map will be changed...
nolefan5311 wrote:Having the losing condition as not holding a capital, and then having some capitals so close is going to cause problems. Some of the capitals are only separated by one territory.

the bonus system is "build" on Capitals. if player lost Capital he will hard gain any bonus. I will replace some Capitals.

new mountains. what do you think?
Click image to enlarge.

Oneyed

Oneyed

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, need gameplay expert and englishm

Oneyed wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:Having the losing condition as not holding a capital, and then having some capitals so close is going to cause problems. Some of the capitals are only separated by one territory.

the bonus system is "build" on Capitals. if player lost Capital he will hard gain any bonus. I will replace some Capitals.

If he loses his capital, he's out of the game, right?

And the mountains look good.

nolefan5311

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, new mountains

Fleets, If I am reading this correctly then if I hold DI, I can attack my ports and neutral ports (all ports look the same so need to be able to tell the difference), I can bombard PI as this ship has a different sail and also attack DM. Is this correct?

koontz1973

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, new mountains

nolefan5311 wrote:If he loses his capital, he's out of the game, right?

yes. maybe it will be too complex to have winning objectives and also losing objectives? thoughts?
nolefan5311 wrote:And the mountains look good.

thanks. nothing better from me here

koontz1973 wrote:Fleets, If I am reading this correctly then if I hold DI, I can attack my ports and neutral ports, I can bombard PI as this ship has a different sail and also attack DM. Is this correct?

yes. in the same sea. I hope that it is clear that red sails are Delian League ships and green sails are Peloponnesian League ships.
koontz1973 wrote:(all ports look the same so need to be able to tell the difference)

port is located in region and it is clear which region belongs to which League. but if this will be still confusing I can do coloured anchors...

thanks for inputs, guys.

Oneyed

Oneyed

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, new mountains

yes. in the same sea. I hope that it is clear that red sails are Delian League ships and green sails are Peloponnesian League ships.

Needs to be in the legend some way. Put the leagues name under the ships should solve that one.
port is located in region and it is clear which region belongs to which League. but if this will be still confusing I can do coloured anchors...

Coloured anchors may be the way to go (same colour as the sails). This way, anyone who does not understand English can get the idea by looking at the map.

koontz1973

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, new mountains

It won't be too complex to have a winning condition and a losing condition. My concern is the proximity of some of the capitals to each other. In large player games, I could eliminate a player in a turn or two with good dice.

nolefan5311

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, new mountains

nole has a point with this about good dice and large games.

But why this I want to know. What does this have to do with the original map apart from the name Peloponnesian War. It might be an idea, if you want to continue down this road, go and have another look at the qwerts map and ask why does this need a sequel to it? What makes it stand out from the rest of the maps? What is good about it (in your opinion) and try to emulate it, what is bad and throw that away. I must admit that I never really play it apart from tournies and random map play. It just never struck me as qwerts finest (unlike his WW2 maps).

Right now, the legend is huge and can be reduced if the game was made simpler. qwerts use of symbols, while used a lot, gives the effect of a much deeper game than this one and saves a lot of space.

Will have another look tomorrow for you and give some more thoughts on this one Oneyed.

koontz1973

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### Re: peloponnesian wars II, new mountains

nolefan5311 wrote:It won't be too complex to have a winning condition and a losing condition. My concern is the proximity of some of the capitals to each other. In large player games, I could eliminate a player in a turn or two with good dice.

I changed capital Korinthos to Elis. so now there is less capitals in small area. and also because Korinthos is crossing region between Peloponnese and Greece on the land.

koontz1973 wrote:nole has a point with this about good dice and large games.

some skilled guys posted here, so I believe this will be solved.
koontz1973 wrote:But why this I want to know. What does this have to do with the original map apart from the name Peloponnesian War. It might be an idea, if you want to continue down this road, go and have another look at the qwerts map and ask why does this need a sequel to it?

only theme is the same. the gameplay is different. I will change name of map...
koontz1973 wrote:What makes it stand out from the rest of the maps? What is good about it (in your opinion) and try to emulate it, what is bad and throw that away.

to be honest, there are few maps which realy stand out from the rest of the maps . as I wrote, my map could be interesting in gameplay - when you attack members of your league at wrong time you will be in troubles...
koontz1973 wrote:I must admit that I never really play it apart from tournies and random map play. It just never struck me as qwerts finest (unlike his WW2 maps).

qwerts map is very nice and has simple (and clear) gameplay. but my map is much closer to history, gameplay and bonuses are more complex, but I think not so much.
koontz1973 wrote:Right now, the legend is huge and can be reduced if the game was made simpler. qwerts use of symbols, while used a lot, gives the effect of a much deeper game than this one and saves a lot of space.

agreed. I need to find anyway how to reduce legend. but some my favourite maps have also huge legends.
koontz1973 wrote:Will have another look tomorrow for you and give some more thoughts on this one Oneyed.

thanks

here is updated version. main changes:

changed colours of Leagues.
some graphics changes.

Click image to enlarge.

Oneyed

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I did two versions with different legends.

version 01
Click image to enlarge.

version 02
Click image to enlarge.

Oneyed

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