Why CC's Membership is (actually) Declining

[jltile1]

So there are at least 2 types of CC gamers - a casual gamer and a hardcore gamer.

A casual gamer who plays for fun and doesn't really mind if he loses or wins.
A hardcore gamer who is more passionate about the game and looks after his rank, points, medals and other stats (at least something like that).

I think, this is somewhat besides the point. The main question/distinction here is: Old/new players.

Once people are hooked into the site, some stick to playing casual games and never get involved with the community (forums, clans, tournaments, etc.), others get involved more deeply. Some care about points/rank/medals, others not. Some prefer old school Risk style maps, some the tricky & special maps. There are many different ways how to use & enjoy the site, but that is not the point here.

The point here is how to get new players hooked. The point is new players coming to the site, most of them probably after googling for "Risk Online", and what their first impression is, and why so many of them leave & never come back. And the reasons are pretty obvious:

The CC interface will lead these people to either the "Join a Game" page (filled with obscure games with obscure maps & settings, that have nothing to do with the game they came here for) or the "Start a Game" page (an overwhelming mess of maps, options & settings, that is hard to navigate for new people).

Solution: Re-vamp the interface. natty dreads posts on the matter have been very good.

a) Make 2 "Join a Game" pages. One for "Beginners" (only showing Sequential Standard games on standard maps), one including everything. Or simply hide all the special games by default, with an expand button "Show advanced/expert games", or something.

b) Hide all the special settings on the "Start a Game" & "Find a Game" pages too, yet again with an expand button "Show advanced/expert settings".

c) Create map categories. Separate the old school Risk style maps from the rest. Only include the standard Risk maps in "Beginners" Join/Find/Start a Game pages. With an expand button to unlock the rest.

And the second big issue, that makes people leave & never come back, as pointed out repeatedly: The long waiting time between turns. Just imagine the activity, if every Freemium would be allowed to play 1 Speed game at a time.

Consider it, and consider other incentives for buying Premium. 1 Speed Game with 5 Minutes turns for Freemiums, unlimited Speed Games with 1,2,3,4,5 Minutes turns for Premiums. Just for example.

This is a great post

It is very easy if you look at the first most the players play is the classic risk map with typical settings of the original game. How are people getting to the site exactly as you said google risk online, and I'm sure that a lot goes into making this site a first on that list. You are right a lot of people will not make it to the forums, some will after a while, and some if they do some digging around.

When a new player joins they usually will hit join game exactly the problem. They will have 20-30 pages of game where the setting have nothing to do with why they signed up,which was to play a decent stragety game. Not some crazy map that you need to play ten times before you can figure out.

There really needs to be some blocks on newer player joining a lot of these games awaiting. And yes if you split the games awaiting into novice intermediate and expert it would change a lot of how to find games. Classic map is easy but let even someone who has played 2000 classic map and 1000 doodle map play city mogul freestyle fog is not fair. Or lunar war and arms race the list goes on. And to see players seeking out those matches here or simply setting them up knowing that a beginner will join and a easy 10 points is what are making some walk. I do think there really needs to be some thought to bringing the classic map back to a priority.

Letting freemiums play some speed games is also a great idea, as to get them involved all the way around. Yes I only bought my prem beacuse of speed games, but I think that might get more players to buy in as they will get hooked on playing real time. Other sites do offer to let you play real time for free.

I my self have played in a few games where one and two strips have joined and never stand a chance. A trip or quad game for example freestyle settings with a team manual deployment they have never stood a chance. Half the team games here are never fair. Take the tourney games and clan wars out the mix and you have a serious lop sided system here. You have four elite players then a one strip joins well who is to follow usually lower ranks then they get hammered.

Hope some thing can be done but seems as the last thread no one want to do anything.

Cheers

[Mr Changsha]

While I am genuinely grateful for all of these supportive, nay downright helpful and insightful posts, I feel you are all (or at least most of you) still shy of taking the intellectual leap I demand. There have been many excellent posts with regards to how to give a new recruit (or very new player) a better first experience. I agree with most of what has been written. Yet I want to go further. I am not writing of the new recruit, I am writing of the CASUAL player. These are different concepts. The casual player may have played hundreds of games.

I refer you back to the key paragraph in the OP...

This site is losing members because it made the awful mistake of actually listening to you guys..though you all love to believe that CC ignores you terribly. CC-policy has been to cater for the hardcore, which is actually a fairly small percentage of the players on this site. That's why we have had a massive expansion in settings, because the hardcore gets bored of all the other settings after they've played thousands of games on them and have got their gold medals. They need more medals and therefore more settings. Of course this means that an ever increasing selection of the games available are not on settings or maps the casual gamer would even think of playing. ''But they can set them up themselves!!!" I hear you all cry. But I wager the new player is rarely immediately premium. He must join a game. As the settings have become increasingly unfriendly for the new player he must try and find a basic game of risk he can play. I remember trying to set up a new player some games about a year ago. It really wasn't easy. There was so little decent (for him) available. If he doesn't enjoy his first experiences here (when freemium) the new player won't buy his membership. In fact he will leave. That's why the membership is dropping.

It is interesting to me that my usual antagonists have steered clear of this thread. I suspect this is because the discussion has veered towards New Recruits. But I am determined to wrench it back to my key point, which as it is my thread I think I am justified in doing.

I have argued here for a very long time that the expansion in maps and settings has been bad for this site. I believe with every innovation it takes the site further and further away from the original game of Risk. I say that is why the membership is dropping. People come here to play Risk. With every passing year this site has less to do with that game. Therefore many members have left. As an example, consider how high on the scoreboard a standard sequential flat player can get. Squeak on to the first page? Basic european Risk has been simply eclipsed. What has freestlye got to do with original Risk? Foggy games? Lot's of players have dominated the scoreboard playing maps and settings that have almost nothing to do with the original game. Yet, and this is key, the majority of players (casual players) come here to play Risk, yet they cannot progress on the scoreboard playing the original game. Almost everyone wants to be successful at what they do. In my view it is human nature. Yet playing the game they actually came here to play, most players would top out around captain. Yet the scoreboard is littered with players that are playing a game with little relation to the game the majority of players came here to play. There is a basic dissonance to this fact, and it is why the site is becoming increasingly unpopular.

All of you writing here have accepted that New Recruits want to play a good game of Risk. I think that is an important advance for my argument and I am glad it has been so uniformly accepted. But now I want you to go further. I say that not only do new players want to play Risk, but they also want to keep playing Risk and feel they are advancing on the site. The scoreboard is forcing players to play games they actually didn't come here to play to advance. CC is forcing players to choose effectively unfair settings for the opposition (farming etc) to advance. This site has been corrupted by the expansion in maps and settings. Players have been equally corrupted in a moral sense. This is why the site's membership is declining.

[Dibbun]

Hard for people to advance when they are kept in a box and not allowed to apprentice under great players. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=174172

[tkr4lf]

Hard for people to advance when they are kept in a box and not allowed to apprentice under great players. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=174172

I really don't think that can be described as apprenticing.

[jltile1]

Hard for people to advance when they are kept in a box and not allowed to apprentice under great players. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=174172

Are u kidding me there a learning or giving points ? You cannot be serious, there are far more ways to learn but it you think he is teaching your wrong and maybe part of the problem here !

[Mr Changsha]

Hard for people to advance when they are kept in a box and not allowed to apprentice under great players. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=174172

You notice the combination of freestyle, fog and map?

You know for a long time I actively defended farmers both in C and A and more generally here. My reason was that I felt every society needs some sharks in the water. It gives the site edge, a dark side...a sense of wrong sometimes allows a society to aquire a much needed edge.

But over time I began to accept that this phenomenon was outweighed by the overall moral degredation caused by the exploitation of map and settings.

My solution is both simple and wildly unpopular with CC's hardcore, though I maintain that CC-wide it would be met with joy.

1. Abolish fog
2. Abolish Freestyle.

We can keep all the maps.

[jltile1]

While I am genuinely grateful for all of these supportive, nay downright helpful and insightful posts, I feel you are all (or at least most of you) still shy of taking the intellectual leap I demand. There have been many excellent posts with regards to how to give a new recruit (or very new player) a better first experience. I agree with most of what has been written. Yet I want to go further. I am not writing of the new recruit, I am writing of the CASUAL player. These are different concepts. The casual player may have played hundreds of games.

I refer you back to the key paragraph in the OP...

This site is losing members because it made the awful mistake of actually listening to you guys..though you all love to believe that CC ignores you terribly. CC-policy has been to cater for the hardcore, which is actually a fairly small percentage of the players on this site. That's why we have had a massive expansion in settings, because the hardcore gets bored of all the other settings after they've played thousands of games on them and have got their gold medals. They need more medals and therefore more settings. Of course this means that an ever increasing selection of the games available are not on settings or maps the casual gamer would even think of playing. ''But they can set them up themselves!!!" I hear you all cry. But I wager the new player is rarely immediately premium. He must join a game. As the settings have become increasingly unfriendly for the new player he must try and find a basic game of risk he can play. I remember trying to set up a new player some games about a year ago. It really wasn't easy. There was so little decent (for him) available. If he doesn't enjoy his first experiences here (when freemium) the new player won't buy his membership. In fact he will leave. That's why the membership is dropping.

It is interesting to me that my usual antagonists have steered clear of this thread. I suspect this is because the discussion has veered towards New Recruits. But I am determined to wrench it back to my key point, which as it is my thread I think I am justified in doing.

I have argued here for a very long time that the expansion in maps and settings has been bad for this site. I believe with every innovation it takes the site further and further away from the original game of Risk. I say that is why the membership is dropping. People come here to play Risk. With every passing year this site has less to do with that game. Therefore many members have left. As an example, consider how high on the scoreboard a standard sequential flat player can get. Squeak on to the first page? Basic european Risk has been simply eclipsed. What has freestlye got to do with original Risk? Foggy games? Lot's of players have dominated the scoreboard playing maps and settings that have almost nothing to do with the original game. Yet, and this is key, the majority of players (casual players) come here to play Risk, yet they cannot progress on the scoreboard playing the original game. Almost everyone wants to be successful at what they do. In my view it is human nature. Yet playing the game they actually came here to play, most players would top out around captain. Yet the scoreboard is littered with players that are playing a game with little relation to the game the majority of players came here to play. There is a basic dissonance to this fact, and it is why the site is becoming increasingly unpopular.

All of you writing here have accepted that New Recruits want to play a good game of Risk. I think that is an important advance for my argument and I am glad it has been so uniformly accepted. But now I want you to go further. I say that not only do new players want to play Risk, but they also want to keep playing Risk and feel they are advancing on the site. The scoreboard is forcing players to play games they actually didn't come here to play to advance. CC is forcing players to choose effectively unfair settings for the opposition (farming etc) to advance. This site has been corrupted by the expansion in maps and settings. Players have been equally corrupted in a moral sense. This is why the site's membership is declining.

Well I think one thing you are saying is wrong the expansion of maps and setting is a great thing, if the right people are playing the games against eachother. The problem is that players are finding stragetys out and are picking on the week like vultures. The scoreboard I think is very week as players you have played with all these settings sit at top.

As I said everyone want to win I don't care casual or not. Fix the scoreboard if you look at the top it's all freestyle players. But what about the rest that don't care to play those games but would like to rank up? I agree 100 percent as what you have said.

Your next paragraph is exactly what I have been feeling and saying. There needs to be two score boards one freestyle and one none freestyle. The facts are simple one if you play speed so. Much comes into consideration. If its 24 hour you need to watch it like a hawk. That being said you can also turn your online status off why? So when a player drops your right there as you seen he was online. There are too many factors to a real game on this site. Dice are one thing but I do see them even out as you can go good and go bad. 1v1 are the worst.

I really do think there needs to be some serious changes. To the whole site so farming ranching or what ever you call it stops. Also so some real good risk players can get among the ranks as that is why they join. I joined simply beacuse of risk no other reason, and that is why most join.

[Woodruff]

All of you writing here have accepted that New Recruits want to play a good game of Risk. I think that is an important advance for my argument and I am glad it has been so uniformly accepted. But now I want you to go further. I say that not only do new players want to play Risk, but they also want to keep playing Risk and feel they are advancing on the site. The scoreboard is forcing players to play games they actually didn't come here to play to advance. CC is forcing players to choose effectively unfair settings for the opposition (farming etc) to advance. This site has been corrupted by the expansion in maps and settings. Players have been equally corrupted in a moral sense. This is why the site's membership is declining.

I consider myself very much a "casual player" here. My only real disagreement with you is the idea that I, as a casual BUT EXPERIENCED player on the site, cannot effectively maneuver through the maps and settings that I don't like to reach those that I like. This doesn't make sense to me. In fact, it goes against my very real experience here.

I think I'm not the only one that feels that way, thus why the thread pushed toward the new recruit aspect of things.

[tkr4lf]

Hard for people to advance when they are kept in a box and not allowed to apprentice under great players. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=174172

You notice the combination of freestyle, fog and map?

You know for a long time I actively defended farmers both in C and A and more generally here. My reason was that I felt every society needs some sharks in the water. It gives the site edge, a dark side...a sense of wrong sometimes allows a society to aquire a much needed edge.

But over time I began to accept that this phenomenon was outweighed by the overall moral degredation caused by the exploitation of map and settings.

My solution is both simple and wildly unpopular with CC's hardcore, though I maintain that CC-wide it would be met with joy.

1. Abolish fog
2. Abolish Freestyle.

We can keep all the maps.

Ok, I couldn't care less about freestyle, but why fog?

Yes, I understand that it diverges from the classic RISK gameplay, but fog seems to be a very popular setting. Many, many people enjoy playing foggy games. Part of the fun is figuring out who is where, and if you can't or don't want to do that, then don't join a game with fog.

I guess the main point I'm not understanding here is why the settings must be abolished. I can get on board with encouraging classic gameplay though the use of hidden settings, making the default seq, escalating, chained, sunny. I can get on board with more people playing these types of games and playing more for the fun than for the points. But I absolutely cannot get on board with abolishing settings that many people like to play.

Should we eliminate something that many enjoy, just so that the larger majority of players won't have to play those games anymore? That doesn't seem quite fair. You want to force everybody to play the settings that are most like the RISK board game, but not everybody here wants to play that. Yes, I understand that most do. I understand that almost everybody who comes here initially wants to. But as people stick around, they will eventually at least give the other settings a try. If they don't like them, then they don't have to play them.

It doesn't make sense to abolish them just so that the casual gamers are guaranteed to get to play games that they like. What about the people that do like them? Abolishing them means that they cannot play the games that they like anymore. Isn't there a happy medium somewhere that doesn't involve any much-loved settings being abolished entirely? Surely a compromise could be reached that would make everybody happy.

And all of this applies to freestyle equally. I personally hate it and don't care about it at all, but there are many who enjoy it. Why should they not get to play the games that they enjoy just so another group can play more of the games they want to? Such draconian measures will not only be bad for the site in my opinion, but will actually drive away many of the most loyal and hardcore of CC'ers.

[jltile1]

All of you writing here have accepted that New Recruits want to play a good game of Risk. I think that is an important advance for my argument and I am glad it has been so uniformly accepted. But now I want you to go further. I say that not only do new players want to play Risk, but they also want to keep playing Risk and feel they are advancing on the site. The scoreboard is forcing players to play games they actually didn't come here to play to advance. CC is forcing players to choose effectively unfair settings for the opposition (farming etc) to advance. This site has been corrupted by the expansion in maps and settings. Players have been equally corrupted in a moral sense. This is why the site's membership is declining.

I consider myself very much a "casual player" here. My only real disagreement with you is the idea that I, as a casual BUT EXPERIENCED player on the site, cannot effectively maneuver through the maps and settings that I don't like to reach those that I like. This doesn't make sense to me. In fact, it goes against my very real experience here.

I think I'm not the only one that feels that way, thus why the thread pushed toward the new recruit aspect of things.

Look at what ahunda says

[Woodruff]

All of you writing here have accepted that New Recruits want to play a good game of Risk. I think that is an important advance for my argument and I am glad it has been so uniformly accepted. But now I want you to go further. I say that not only do new players want to play Risk, but they also want to keep playing Risk and feel they are advancing on the site. The scoreboard is forcing players to play games they actually didn't come here to play to advance. CC is forcing players to choose effectively unfair settings for the opposition (farming etc) to advance. This site has been corrupted by the expansion in maps and settings. Players have been equally corrupted in a moral sense. This is why the site's membership is declining.

I consider myself very much a "casual player" here. My only real disagreement with you is the idea that I, as a casual BUT EXPERIENCED player on the site, cannot effectively maneuver through the maps and settings that I don't like to reach those that I like. This doesn't make sense to me. In fact, it goes against my very real experience here.

I think I'm not the only one that feels that way, thus why the thread pushed toward the new recruit aspect of things.

Look at what ahunda says

I read it, and I agree with it. But I don't really see where that affects my point at all, to be honest - care to explain?

[Army of GOD]

fog is fun for casual gamers (I consider myself a casual gamer with my 0 active games) but freestyle is literally only for the idiots or the hardcore gamers and is just generally unfun. I wouldn't miss any sleep over it being removed.

[jltile1]

Hard for people to advance when they are kept in a box and not allowed to apprentice under great players. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=174172

You notice the combination of freestyle, fog and map?

You know for a long time I actively defended farmers both in C and A and more generally here. My reason was that I felt every society needs some sharks in the water. It gives the site edge, a dark side...a sense of wrong sometimes allows a society to aquire a much needed edge.

But over time I began to accept that this phenomenon was outweighed by the overall moral degredation caused by the exploitation of map and settings.

My solution is both simple and wildly unpopular with CC's hardcore, though I maintain that CC-wide it would be met with joy.

1. Abolish fog
2. Abolish Freestyle.

We can keep all the maps.

Ok, I couldn't care less about freestyle, but why fog?

Yes, I understand that it diverges from the classic RISK gameplay, but fog seems to be a very popular setting. Many, many people enjoy playing foggy games. Part of the fun is figuring out who is where, and if you can't or don't want to do that, then don't join a game with fog.

I guess the main point I'm not understanding here is why the settings must be abolished. I can get on board with encouraging classic gameplay though the use of hidden settings, making the default seq, escalating, chained, sunny. I can get on board with more people playing these types of games and playing more for the fun than for the points. But I absolutely cannot get on board with abolishing settings that many people like to play.

Should we eliminate something that many enjoy, just so that the larger majority of players won't have to play those games anymore? That doesn't seem quite fair. You want to force everybody to play the settings that are most like the RISK board game, but not everybody here wants to play that. Yes, I understand that most do. I understand that almost everybody who comes here initially wants to. But as people stick around, they will eventually at least give the other settings a try. If they don't like them, then they don't have to play them.

It doesn't make sense to abolish them just so that the casual gamers are guaranteed to get to play games that they like. What about the people that do like them? Abolishing them means that they cannot play the games that they like anymore. Isn't there a happy medium somewhere that doesn't involve any much-loved settings being abolished entirely? Surely a compromise could be reached that would make everybody happy.

And all of this applies to freestyle equally. I personally hate it and don't care about it at all, but there are many who enjoy it. Why should they not get to play the games that they enjoy just so another group can play more of the games they want to? Such draconian measures will not only be bad for the site in my opinion, but will actually drive away many of the most loyal and hardcore of CC'ers.

Agreed with pretty much all that. But I think what we are really talking about is keeping the lower ranked players here and stop the map specialist away from them. This site has all to do with "risk" as much as u might disagree. But I found it google risk online. A lot of these games and setting are for farmers simple . We have lost the point of playing a fair game. Is the real point .

[tkr4lf]

Hard for people to advance when they are kept in a box and not allowed to apprentice under great players. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=174172

You notice the combination of freestyle, fog and map?

You know for a long time I actively defended farmers both in C and A and more generally here. My reason was that I felt every society needs some sharks in the water. It gives the site edge, a dark side...a sense of wrong sometimes allows a society to aquire a much needed edge.

But over time I began to accept that this phenomenon was outweighed by the overall moral degredation caused by the exploitation of map and settings.

My solution is both simple and wildly unpopular with CC's hardcore, though I maintain that CC-wide it would be met with joy.

1. Abolish fog
2. Abolish Freestyle.

We can keep all the maps.

Ok, I couldn't care less about freestyle, but why fog?

Yes, I understand that it diverges from the classic RISK gameplay, but fog seems to be a very popular setting. Many, many people enjoy playing foggy games. Part of the fun is figuring out who is where, and if you can't or don't want to do that, then don't join a game with fog.

I guess the main point I'm not understanding here is why the settings must be abolished. I can get on board with encouraging classic gameplay though the use of hidden settings, making the default seq, escalating, chained, sunny. I can get on board with more people playing these types of games and playing more for the fun than for the points. But I absolutely cannot get on board with abolishing settings that many people like to play.

Should we eliminate something that many enjoy, just so that the larger majority of players won't have to play those games anymore? That doesn't seem quite fair. You want to force everybody to play the settings that are most like the RISK board game, but not everybody here wants to play that. Yes, I understand that most do. I understand that almost everybody who comes here initially wants to. But as people stick around, they will eventually at least give the other settings a try. If they don't like them, then they don't have to play them.

It doesn't make sense to abolish them just so that the casual gamers are guaranteed to get to play games that they like. What about the people that do like them? Abolishing them means that they cannot play the games that they like anymore. Isn't there a happy medium somewhere that doesn't involve any much-loved settings being abolished entirely? Surely a compromise could be reached that would make everybody happy.

And all of this applies to freestyle equally. I personally hate it and don't care about it at all, but there are many who enjoy it. Why should they not get to play the games that they enjoy just so another group can play more of the games they want to? Such draconian measures will not only be bad for the site in my opinion, but will actually drive away many of the most loyal and hardcore of CC'ers.

Agreed with pretty much all that. But I think what we are really talking about is keeping the lower ranked players here and stop the map specialist away from them. This site has all to do with "risk" as much as u might disagree. But I found it google risk online. A lot of these games and setting are for farmers simple . We have lost the point of playing a fair game. Is the real point .

I found this site the exact same way. When I first starting coming here, all I wanted to do was play RISK. But as I stuck around, I tried out the other settings. Now, I know that this site can be so much more than just RISK, and I think that is a great thing. I agree that this site has a lot to do with RISK, since that is what this site is based on. But it can be so much more. It can be a great strategy game, and not just a great RISK clone.

If you will actually read Mr.Changsha's post that I quoted, the point of this thread absolutely is what I argued against. He says that just keeping the lower ranked players here and stopping the map specialists from farming them is great, but that we should take it a step further. He advocates abolishing settings that most "casual" gamers probably wouldn't like. I believe that that is wrong. Personal choice should triumph over enforced participation in games one doesn't wish to play.

I am in agreement with what everybody else has said, for the most part. Stuff like suggestions to help keep NR's here for longer, etc. But I am not in agreement with Mr.Changsha's last post about taking it further and abolishing certain settings. That is what I am arguing against, not what you said.

[jltile1]

Hard for people to advance when they are kept in a box and not allowed to apprentice under great players. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=174172

You notice the combination of freestyle, fog and map?

You know for a long time I actively defended farmers both in C and A and more generally here. My reason was that I felt every society needs some sharks in the water. It gives the site edge, a dark side...a sense of wrong sometimes allows a society to aquire a much needed edge.

But over time I began to accept that this phenomenon was outweighed by the overall moral degredation caused by the exploitation of map and settings.

My solution is both simple and wildly unpopular with CC's hardcore, though I maintain that CC-wide it would be met with joy.

1. Abolish fog
2. Abolish Freestyle.

We can keep all the maps.

He is high on something !!