RIP Foundry Avatars

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RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby RjBeals on Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:44 pm

So whats up with the new look many of you are sporting? Boycotting the foundry for a bit?
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:15 pm

Hi Rjbeals,

I've learned that 3:00 am are not the best time to post (in fact I'm just on CC to check turns before to go to sleep).
In the same time I don't want to not write this quick post because I want to be sure that this thing won't start in the wrong way (someone post here a wrong reply or start a discussion about something different).

So I'm asking to you to be patient for some hours, I'll write a post with a detailed explanation of what is going on tomorrow, when I have a fresh brain. :)

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:50 am

OK, here we go.

First of all, there's no tool or mod power that allow me to write this post switching my username color from a bolded blue to gray, so let me state clear that I'm not writing this as CC volunteer or as foundry foreman, but as a simple mapmaker, although in the same time I can't pretend that I don't have these roles on the site.
Anyway, what's happening?

If we want to explain what's going on in few words, yes, we're boycotting the process for a bit; but I think it's a reductive and not perfect explanation.
Since you were a foundry user before my time here, you probably know what are the real reasons that pushed us to do this thing, but considering I'm trying to explain the things it's better if I give an explanation for those who are new in the Foundry or frequent this forum sporadically or an not directly involved in this "action".

There are few things that needs to be made clear:
- The foundry process is not a right but a privilege, in fact nobody here pay to draw maps (you can do that also if freemium)
- The foundry process is a open community process in which the community has the final say on maps quality and playability
- The foundry process is moderated and facilitated by a group of volunteers, the CAs, who are the voice of the site. This group should push the production on the right way and should step in case a map is going in the wrong way (doing something that the site wouldn't like or approve), the group is led by the foreman, who is the Lackattack's voice and eyes when it comes to talk about maps on CC.

The above points were "defined" by lackattack and even if someone think there's a secret plan to get rid of the foundry, I can assure you all that these point are the only things that still stand.

Now, I think I've spent in the foundry most of my time on CC and probably I've seen most of the things that are happened here (unfortunately it seems I missed the best moments :(), and I'm going to explain the point using my foundry-life experience.

So, the point is that even if the foundry is not a right but a privilege, when you set up a process that makes your users happy and that gives you an advantage for your site you should consider that you have to give support to that process.
But this is not a dogma, is not a fixed rules. Far from me to tell to lackattack what he has to do with his site.
But in the same time, if we go back through the years, we can see how this support for the foundry has become increasingly sporadic over the time.

A time there was a thread in which people was used to write suggestion for maps (commonly known as xml updates), in which Lack was used to give an answer and say, yes this will be done, maybe this could be done or not this can't be done. That thread has become a neverending thread that no one will look anymore, it has become a so useless thing and a so big bad signal of how things were going on in this forum that a day I decided to move it in a place where no one was able to see it anymore.

We are all aware that lackattack can't implement everything, just because we ask it...but this is not the point. The point is the lack of informations, the lack of defined plans or in the worst cases the decision to go backward on previous implementations and improvements.
The point is that most of the foundry community thinks that the current support for the foundry is not the right one, specially because it's too much time we "live" in a sort of limbo.

As said we're not asking to lackattack to give us a precise list of things, but to listen to us and give us definitive answers, to care about the true heart of Conquer Club!
People can say everything, but if you look at the CC site in depth, Conquer Club is just code and maps. Everything else can exist just because there's a coder (lackattack) and maps.
Every person with a bit of salt can understand that maps and code should be a priority because they are the basic playground on which , tournaments, clans and obviously the game itself is taken.

But in reality , over the years, things has gone in a different way, in the totally opposite way. Obviously I'm not saying that other parts of the site don't need attention, but I'm saying that if some other forums are become bigger through the year, instead the foundry has become smaller and smaller every day.

We have lost a big group of mapmakers a couple of years ago because they felt negleted. Now days i think we're going to lose teh foundry because the assumptions upon which it is based are failing. If the Foundry is a public process, you should try to make possible for the community to look at this process. If Mapmakers are shouting to you that things are wrong, you should listen to them and you shold try to find a bit of time to write a post and explain to them things.
Now you can say, you're the foreman, why you don't ask directly to Lack and you give us an answer? the answer is simple I can't, I don't know what is the plan, I don't know what is going on and in the end I have no power to change things alone.

I had some chat with lack, some PM exchange and in past were taken some decisions. I announced some of these decisions (with his approval) but those decisions in the end resulted just like broken promises. To make 2 examples, I announced 2 xml updates that never arrived more than 6 months ago, we did some test with supersize maps to hear after a while that things has to be done differently because the UI can't be changed so easily.

Yesterday I've sent a pm to lackattack to tell him what we are doing, i think that maybe I can copy paste here to tell you all what I've said to him (I've cutted some parts that are not relevant or private/sensitive info):

it's a bit difficult for me to write this pm. But I find myself in an unconfortable situation.
I know that you have many things to do and probably these are not only related with CC.

We had a chat in past in which were made some promises to me. I think that I have been patient for a very long long time, trying to keep people calm and funny.

....

But, unfortunately (for you) I'm not only your foundry foreman but also a mapmaker.
I think that it's not easy to fit both this roles in the same time but I do my best to do my job here in the best way.
To my eyes, be the foundry foreman is not only try to push the map production and manage the foundry but also listen and make everything is possible to "protect" the foundry community.
In the last 2 years I've seen the foundry community become smaller and smaller every day. Right now we're just a bunch of people and there's no so much we can do to change things if you don't try to promote the foundry in the proper way on the site.
For a long time i tried to wait without complain everyday, trying to be foreman first and then mapmaker.

Today, I've decided to go in the opposite way and think as mapmaker and not be the foreman....help the mapmakers and then the site.
For this reason I'm saying to you that me and a "large" (considering how much people visit the foundry) group of mapmaker have decided to stop produce maps and updates untill you will show some love for us.
Let me state clear that I'm not a backstabber, I'm not betraying you or the site....on the opposite I would pay to have the foreman role as "full time job", but I've decided with some others to put you in a corner and " force" you to take care of us.
This is not like say: "I'm a crying baby, gimme some updates or I won't draw the maps anymore!"
It's more: "You're losing your mapmakers, this would be CC without us!"

I hope you understand what we're trying to do, I hope you don't take this as a personal act against you. I hope you understand that if we're going to do this, is because we have no more way to let you know that things are wrong, really wrong in the foundry.
People want to hear your thoughts, your plans, see things come.

Obviously, since I'm a democratic person I've not forced anyone to join this "protest action", the mapmakers who want to continue to produce maps are free to do that and we (as Cas) will check them and we will help them anyway.

On the opposite, let me say clear that I won't send to you any update or new maps till, at least, a serious discussion between you, me and the mapmaking community is taken.

As said, all this is done to have a better site and not to destroy it!

.......

I hope you understand, I'm here and want to help, but there're things that need to be done sometime.
If you want discuss I'm here


So, the point is....this thing is not boycotting the process, but show to Lack how this site would be without the foundry. Tell him to state things in a clear way, come here and give us a final answer, come here an start a discussion with the (nowdays) few people that give him at least an update for this site every month.

I think , I'm writing an endless post and probably i can write for hours without take a break considering the number of thoughts and feelings I have in my head right now.
But maybe I should stop and let the others speak a bit, wait that lackattack read this post and come here to say something.

In the past days I discussed a bit with cairnswk. He is a good and wise man, he has said a interesting thing: a discussion should take place.
Now, i think that this thread could be a place where teh discussion can take place, the important thing is that both side of the discussion come here and discuss or it will be another topic in which mapmakers talk to mapmakers and nothing happen.

Personally i think that you (lackattack) can have a CM (Andy), or a foreman (me)...but sometimes there're things you need to do alone. Lack we would like to hear your thoughts, understand if in your heart there's again some love for us and the issues are others or if this foundry decline is what we have to live with. We are all ears, just give us an answer.
Remember that we love this site, the foundry and that is precisely what led us to make this decision, even if reluctantly....broken promises are a big no no.

Friendly
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:14 am

several months ago i reached a point where i simply snapped and asked myself WHY? why do i keep making maps? why do i post in the foundry? for the first time in many years i honestly could not find an answer. my motivation was gone. years upon years of broken promises tend to do that to people. i don't know what could be done. at this point even if lack snaps his fingers and magically brings to life all the promises he's made in the past 5 years i seriously doubt the foundry would be brought back to its glory moments. so much damage has been done it would take a long time for the foundry to grow back and gain its lost strength.

anyway, i'm fairly sure lack thinks the 200+ maps that he currently has are more than enough and he simply chose to ignore the foundry thinking it's not a big loss if it dies.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby natty dread on Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:19 am

Yep, pretty much.

I think I've talked enough on this forum and others what my gripes are about the administration, the foundry and so on, so I'm not going to reiterate it all here. Suffice to say, that this site is ran 99% on volunteer power, 99% on user-created content - there's no top-down model here, no paid workers who create content and customers who consume it, and that's the very best thing about this site. That the users can actively participate in making this site better. But lately, this site has been going in the wrong direction, not just in the foundry but all around. The users who dedicate their time and efforts to improve this site are not given the support they should from the administration. Many people have left, and it looks like I might have to join them.

I think these problems with the foundry are symptoms of larger problems within CC. The amount of active members has dropped by 2500 in only a year. That's a number that should be profoundly worrying, and should inspire some drastic changes - especially considering it's only a part of a downward trend that started 3 years ago. Which is also why I'm not optimistic about this - if nothing has been done in the last 3 years, I'm not expecting a sudden change now. But one can always hope...
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby greenoaks on Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:51 am

you guys have it wrong.

there was a time when the foundry was required but that time has passed. every map you create adds less and less to the site.

tournaments and clans will continue if you cease to exist.

your success at churning out maps has made you less relevant.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:53 am

i think greenoaks is lack's multi.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:00 am

This because new maps are exactly variants of the existing ones and it is exactly what we're saying.
If new elements are given we can add more. (ex, conditional borders)
If this is not what the site admins want, then it's enough say it and we will find something else to do.

So your statement says exactly what we're saying, with no support the foundry is dead because it becomes not needed, although it is a primary part of the site.

ps. lol @DiM :lol:
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Sniper08 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:33 am

100% support you guys , i think the foundry has been ignored for far too long and we are seeing that in repetitive maps been produced as of late, some new features are desperately needed and i only hope lack listens.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby greenoaks on Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:54 am

thenobodies80 wrote:This because new maps are exactly variants of the existing ones and it is exactly what we're saying.
If new elements are given we can add more. (ex, conditional borders)
If this is not what the site admins want, then it's enough say it and we will find something else to do.

So your statement says exactly what we're saying, with no support the foundry is dead because it becomes not needed, although it is a primary part of the site.

ps. lol @DiM :lol:

you are missing my point.


even with new features you are less relevant than you were 3 years ago. if you are going to churn out 30 maps a year then you will hasten your own demise.

maps are like years of our life. when we are young each year day seems to last forever. as we get older each new year (map) adds less because it is viewed through the cumilative total of its predecesors.

it is awesome to get a new map when we only have 4, it is ok to get a new map when we already have 100, it's meh when we have 500 already. new features will create an artificial spike in your relevance but that will fade, quickly.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:18 pm

I could say the same for tournaments or clans or medal or games.
Your point is totally subjective and tou have to take in account you are on this site from 2007, your vision doesn't match with everyone else vision. and let me say you have bad vision of life (or a boring one). I love each day i live on this earth like it was the first.
Said that I thought also about the fact we have lot of maps and I came with a proposal that was rejected because too hard to implement.
There are not too many maps, just they are managed in the wrong way and not from today, we can easily go back to 2009.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby greenoaks on Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:51 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:I could say the same for tournaments or clans or medal or games.

actually you couldn't - for tournaments. they are capable of utilising the existing work of the foundry and remixing it with new participents/formats/scoring, clans are similar to tournaments, just not as fluid.

thenobodies80 wrote:Your point is totally subjective and tou have to take in account you are on this site from 2007, your vision doesn't match with everyone else vision. and let me say you have bad vision of life (or a boring one). I love each day i live on this earth like it was the first.

you may love it but you dont remember it like you did when you were 5. back then days lasted forever. you had very little to compare them to. now you have 20, 30, 40 years. we all view time relative to the time we have already experienced. that is why time appears to slow down as we age.

that is also why we value the foundry the way we do. the greater the Foundry's output the smaller the impact of the next unit. it is known as 'Diminishing Returns' ie. A yield rate that after a certain point fails to increase proportionately to additional outlays.

thenobodies80 wrote:Said that I thought also about the fact we have lot of maps and I came with a proposal that was rejected because too hard to implement.
There are not too many maps, just they are managed in the wrong way and not from today, we can easily go back to 2009.

an awesome map created when there are only 4 maps is an awesome map, an awesome map created when there is 200 maps is a great map, an awesome map created when we have 7000 maps, 200 of which are considered awesome will elicit a 'meh' from the community.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:59 pm

greenoaks wrote:an awesome map created when there are only 4 maps is an awesome map, an awesome map created when there is 200 maps is a great map, an awesome map created when we have 7000 maps, 200 of which are considered awesome will elicit a 'meh' from the community.


actually the number of maps is not really important on its own. what's important is the types of maps that you have.
make 200 classic style maps and no matter what you come up with next if it's still classic style then it's gonna be crap.

but the interesting thing is that in a perfect world the foundry would be able to produce completely unique maps each and every time.
there are so many xml things that have been requested that we could create magnificent gameplay variations each unique in its way.

give us xml updates and give us map categorization and filtration and you'll see even 1000 maps won't seem that many.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:55 pm

exactly what DiM has said. The foundry has always been the place in which quality was more important than quantity.
Lately is the opposite, i think. This because today is too hard to find new gameplay elements to use.

greenoaks, I understand what you're saying but i can't agree with you. Here we're not talking about make the same thing again and again. that's exactly the point we are tired about. The foundry is a place of creative people, we don't want to remix thing and do always the same. If it works for tournaments or clan, I'm happy for them, but here uniqueness has always been a requirement, this because we want to give you guys new things to play with all time!

If you think just for a second, you can realize that mapmakers have created all the variants of this game. Just an example, feudal war...a simple thing like make all territories neutral can introduce a new variant of the game and trasform a standard map in a conquest map.

what we're saying to day is that without support, without new things there's no way for us to create new type of games. Considering your answer i suppose you don't know what we would be able to do just with conditional borders, how much it would push us to create a X number of different type of games that you have never played on this site. And it's just a single new xml feature!
As said, here is not matter of number of maps available (although I would cut some maps from the site) but quality of the maps.

Unfortunately now we need support from lackattack or new types of games/maps can't be created.
Wouldn't be better to have more unique maps, with unique features instead of another game options, that, following your argument, will be old and less funny just after few games?

you're focusing on the wrong issue, it's not quantity...but quality the problem.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Oneyed on Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:18 pm

I am not long time member of site, but I agreed with mapmakers. I found here many similar maps in gameplay due to few and the same XML possibilities. bring anything different, do different bonus system or attack routes needs big creativity... and sometimes several maps become too complex (too many combinations of bonuses, negative bonuses, attack/one way attack routes...).

more complex games are "new" ones, because with "old" xml were all "simple" possibilities used in "old" maps.

we (I also try to make maps) need new XML upgrade. conditional borders or conditionals autodeploy, these two upgrades could give us great new possibilities and combinations.

at last but not at least, do not forgot that mapmakers spend their time, energy, creativity for site. only mapmakers bring new maps and do them better and better. and without any money or another reward.

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:46 pm

When I stepped down as Foundry Foreman, I deliberately left out my reasons for doing so. I know too well the struggles described by thenobodies80, and I support this action wholeheartedly.

Whatever lackattack has said about the importance of conquerclub's maps is undermined by his complete disregard for the foundry (including the game-finder/map-browser). To lackattack: Orthopraxy (what you do) is more properly basic than orthodoxy (what you think).
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Pedronicus on Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:53 pm

For someone who has been here from the start, can you map boffins explain what you could or would like to do with maps that is unable to be done with the code at your disposal?

Just coming on here moaning about lack not backing you up, is pretty meaningless to us game players, unless you can explain what new ideas you've had.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:58 pm

Pedronicus wrote:For someone who has been here from the start, can you map boffins explain what you could or would like to do with maps that is unable to be done with the code at your disposal?

Just coming on here moaning about lack not backing you up, is pretty meaningless to us game players, unless you can explain what new ideas you've had.

Here's 47 pages worth of suggestions dating back to 2009: viewtopic.php?f=127&t=17885&start=690#p2178673

And here's the list that was shortlisted back in 2009 following discussions with lackattack, together with any suggestions that have been made since: viewtopic.php?f=127&t=103961
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:01 pm

While the code we currently have IMHO does the job, after awhile, making maps with the same old XML code gets boring. There are plenty of great XML features that can be done in this thread. Conditional borders, conditional autodeploys etc. Image how many new and exciting maps can be made! We need new features, updates etc. Personally I find the same ole code to be boring. We need new life in our maps!!
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Pedronicus on Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:03 pm

MrBenn wrote:When I stepped down as Foundry Foreman, I deliberately left out my reasons for doing so. I know too well the struggles described by thenobodies80, and I support this action wholeheartedly.

Whatever lackattack has said about the importance of conquerclub's maps is undermined by his complete disregard for the foundry (including the game-finder/map-browser). To lackattack: Orthopraxy (what you do) is more properly basic than orthodoxy (what you think).


Oooooh! big words!

MrBenn wrote: I remember with great clarity my first contributions (to Dust Bowl and the British Isles revamp), and the thrill of seeing a suggestion come to life (the Sparkling Cherry on the Conquer Man Cake!).


and pointless foundry shit that idiots like you specialised in.... :roll:

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:09 pm

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:17 pm

looks like lack is bringing all his multis in this thread :lol:
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:40 am

Pedronicus wrote:you stepping down as foundry foreman was a complete non event. Until I read you post I wasn't even aware of the fact that you held a position


That's basically an argument from ignorance... it's because you don't spend time in the foundry, you're not here to see the basically amazing amount of time and effort these people contribute to keep things going, in order for you and your pals to get maps to play on... you just see the end result, and maybe show up when the maps are already in beta to complain about a thing or two.

See, it's like you're this fat kid, right, and there's a shortage of meat... and suddenly all the cows start dying of AIDS because the farmers keep fucking them in the ass or something. And then you'd be all like, "I don't care if all the cows die of AIDS, who needs cows when we have hamburgers"...

Pedronicus wrote:Oooooh! big words!


You know, you can always use a dictionary to look them up.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Robespierre__ on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:06 am

What I don't understand is why this great bunch of volunteers does not feel supported by Lack. While it seems they have logic and reason behind their dissatisfaction, that actually does not matter. The very fact that they *FEEL* dissatisfied is all that should matter to Lack. That feeling needs to be addressed else you will get what you have here: volunteers not wanting to volunteer. Please, Lack. Care about what these guys feel. They are trying to help. Don't make them feel like they are running into a brick wall.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby greenoaks on Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:15 am

Robespierre__ wrote:What I don't understand is why this great bunch of volunteers does not feel supported by Lack. While it seems they have logic and reason behind their dissatisfaction, that actually does not matter. The very fact that they *FEEL* dissatisfied is all that should matter to Lack. That feeling needs to be addressed else you will get what you have here: volunteers not wanting to volunteer. Please, Lack. Care about what these guys feel. They are trying to help. Don't make them feel like they are running into a brick wall.

but why?

they are not required. the foundry is no longer required. maps can be and are now made without the foundry's involvement.
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