RIP Foundry Avatars

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:23 am

RjBeals wrote:why not just say what it is? Why does it have to be mysterious? Maybe you'll get feedback if you make it public?


precisely. this is what CC always does and in most cases the updated becomes a disappointment.

somebody comes in and brags an update is coming. he promises it will be important/nice/great/bring new innovative things. and months later after no feedback whatsoever we end up with an update that could very well be nice on its own but the problem is that during the waiting period, because we lack any sort of information each of us starts thinking, dreaming and hoping only to realise that in the end the update is not what we wanted.

now i'm a seasoned veteran used to disappointment and broken promises but hope seems to be coded in the human dna and once i first read andy's post i immediately thought we'd get conditional borders or infected neutrals, or even both. other mapmakers probably thought of really lax supersize rules or even a new interface, or perhaps no more jpg compression on our maps.

regardless of which one of these gets implemented all others will fell at least a bit disappointed.
if there really is something tangible being worked on then i don't see how it would hurt telling us what it is.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:43 am

DiM wrote:somebody comes in and brags an update is coming. he promises it will be important/nice/great/bring new innovative things. and months later after no feedback whatsoever we end up with an update that could very well be nice on its own but the problem is that during the waiting period, because we lack any sort of information each of us starts thinking, dreaming and hoping only to realise that in the end the update is not what we wanted.


This is important: I never said that a big, important, nice update is coming. I've just said that something is moving behind the scenes.
DiM you were on the Team as well, you know that volunteers don't know things years before they are realeased but just few time before the others.
Anyway I don't think it's matter of months in this case, but more few days, at least I hope.

About this, instead:

RjBeals wrote:why not just say what it is? Why does it have to be mysterious? Maybe you'll get feedback if you make it public?


1. I don't know why it has to be mysterious, but it's not my business and being part of the TeamCC i can't tell things before they are announced officially, specially because in most of the cases I don't know what they are! lol

2. The feedback part. I'm on your side here. There's no day in which I don't push in that direction and imo it should be the way to go. It's probably the worst part of my job as foreman. Gather people desires and achieve them. It's like I always find myself caught between the rock and a hard place. Sometimes is not simple to find a way to give people what they want, convince admins that you're speaking for a reason. On the opposite, sometimes is not simple to convince people that what they had is really what was possible to give them in that moment. Balance people expectations and desire with what is reality is 99 time on 100 an impossible mission and there's no day in which I don't ask to myself: "I'm really doing all I can do to serve the foundry people in the right way?"

Now, what I would like to do is create the right place, and I think this thread could be that place, for a serious discussion. What should be the perfect way to have things done? How we should manage updates and requests? I mean, it's clear that the xml suggestion thread is bullshit. Imo there's no point in post something there and wait without a serious discussion. Imo suggestion should go through a different way, it doesn't matter if a suggestion end up with a simple and sad: "no it can't be done, rejected". Imo it's 1000 times better than don't know. So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?
But remember, they should be proposals, not orders...we're not here to rule the site but to make sure our voice is heard and things done taking into account what we say, even if it could mean that something is not always in the way we would like to have it.

Personally I think that there should be a sort of semi regular basis on which updates should work, considering the foundry slownwss i would say 1 every 4 months or 6 months, but in any case not less than 1 every year. I would say that CAs and admins should try to gather info during this period of time and try to understand and ponderate what updates could be beneficial for the foundry and in the same time what updates are possible and feasible from a technical point of view. When this is done I would go with the 3 best candidates to start a public review period and discussion, maybe with a public poll. To me this should be the wway to go, but I don't know if it matches your vision.

What are your thoughts about it? Remember, if I know how you would like to see this place running I can try to push things in a direction, try to create a democratic system where democracy is appliable since it's probably the best way to go. ;)

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:01 am

thenobodies80 wrote:So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?


I think there should be, once every month or two months, an event where everyone in the foundry can put forth ideas and questions and then lackattack would personally show up and give us straight answers for them. Maybe a thread could be posted a few days-week in advance, and people can post their ideas/questions in it, and then at a set date, lackattack would show up and interact with the community.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:06 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
DiM wrote:somebody comes in and brags an update is coming. he promises it will be important/nice/great/bring new innovative things. and months later after no feedback whatsoever we end up with an update that could very well be nice on its own but the problem is that during the waiting period, because we lack any sort of information each of us starts thinking, dreaming and hoping only to realise that in the end the update is not what we wanted.


This is important: I never said that a big, important, nice update is coming. I've just said that something is moving behind the scenes.
DiM you were on the Team as well, you know that volunteers don't know things years before they are realeased but just few time before the others.
Anyway I don't think it's matter of months in this case, but more few days, at least I hope.



i was talking more at a general strategy that CC seems to have. plus i was referring to andy's post not yours.
he said tangible things will come. what are those and when they'll come is a mystery and my point was that mystery is not really good unless you actually deliver some mind boggling awesome update.

i'd rather have a post that says: "lack and KA are currently working on a conditional borders xml update and we have an estimated date of release 1 month from now. we'll try and give you weekly updates"
instead of "we're working on something. we can't say what it is or when it will come"
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:12 am

natty dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?


I think there should be, once every month or two months, an event where everyone in the foundry can put forth ideas and questions and then lackattack would personally show up and give us straight answers for them. Maybe a thread could be posted a few days-week in advance, and people can post their ideas/questions in it, and then at a set date, lackattack would show up and interact with the community.


if memory serves me right, in the original xml suggestions thread lack personally came and commented on which suggestion and told us yes/no/maybe.
that didn't really work out as people expected.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:19 am

in that case sorry, I thought you were referring to this post viewtopic.php?f=127&t=174607&start=60#p3825838 ;)

But probably it's because we both know there's much more hidden behind your words than what you wrote. :-#

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:31 am

no hidden meaning. seriously.
i've posted this thing in a lot of places around the forums. i just disagree with CC's strategy of dealing with updates. regardless if we're talking about the foundry or the site in general.

they always say an update is coming but they never give specific details and in the end a lot of people are disappointed.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby zimmah on Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:33 am

DiM wrote:
natty dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?


I think there should be, once every month or two months, an event where everyone in the foundry can put forth ideas and questions and then lackattack would personally show up and give us straight answers for them. Maybe a thread could be posted a few days-week in advance, and people can post their ideas/questions in it, and then at a set date, lackattack would show up and interact with the community.


if memory serves me right, in the original xml suggestions thread lack personally came and commented on which suggestion and told us yes/no/maybe.
that didn't really work out as people expected.


let's fnd the tread, select all the suggestions that lack answered with 'yes' and make a new tread from just those, and let's vote on them which one is most urgent, and let's make sure they get implemented the first, and than the rest after a few months, etc. and if no better suggestions come up in between, let's start working on the maybe's.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:34 pm

Getting a load of updates in one go, whilst nice would really complicate things over the long run. With average times in the foundry running from 6 months +, having a new update every year of one or two ideas would allow map makers to make maps for that specific one. 3 months consultation on what can be done, would like to be done, followed by a vote maybe of the best ideas, then the update coming live a little later. Follow this sort of pattern would give plenty of new maps every year with the new features and a year for players to get used to the new features.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby MrBenn on Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:07 pm

The best conversations that have ever been had about ANY updates to CC are those where lackattack has been involved with discussions with the community - but it is true to say that most decisions appear to be made by lackattack, on his own whimsical flight of fancy. Back in the day, lack was involved in discussion with the mapmaking community and discussed the best way to implement some desired changes such as one-way borders and ranged attacks - but it's the only example I can think of where lack has proactively engaged with the community before making any decisions.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:08 am

Without any input from the turtle, we will never know what is going on, what can change, might change, will change. But it is now Monday and the weekend has past. Lets see what comes around this week.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Gillipig on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:38 am

MrBenn wrote:The best conversations that have ever been had about ANY updates to CC are those where lackattack has been involved with discussions with the community - but it is true to say that most decisions appear to be made by lackattack, on his own whimsical flight of fancy. Back in the day, lack was involved in discussion with the mapmaking community and discussed the best way to implement some desired changes such as one-way borders and ranged attacks - but it's the only example I can think of where lack has proactively engaged with the community before making any decisions.

We talk and talk and talk but because no one participating in the discussion has any say in implementing the suggestions, we might as well be children in the school yard, discussing how our school should be run.

I have to debunk the argument that map makers are not needed. (Anymore that is.) The site is going to the crappers, number of users are free falling and disinterest among regular members is record high. Who could possibly argue that this site doesn't need to be seriosúsly revamped in one way or another? Forget that CC is still by far the best RISK board game look alike, it doesn't matter because RISK is not chess! CC doesn't only have to compete with sites that have the same theme. It needs to be competetive in respect to other strategy based games available on the net. The gameplay idea doesn't sell itself! You don't have millions of people willing to play it online. You have to fight, lure, convince, please everyone you possible can in order to make it successful. You have to have passion! And be smart.
Chess is easy to run, just enable people to play chess on different time restrictions against each other and you're set. It doesn't matter how the chessboard looks, you don't need to give the pieces different values or abilities on different boards. And winning a game is more about your own skill, and more satisfying than CC can ever hope to be. That's why CC always needs to keep improving, otherwise it'll be outdated. It is very outdated already so we're not talking about something that will come in time. It's just getting more and more outdated as we speak.
If I owned this site I'd give it one chance to refresh itself. Change the interface to a newer sexier look, make a serious marketing attempt to bring in more new members (and old), give the mapmakers the tools they wish and see if they can make these super entertaining maps they claim, raise the premium member fee to partly accomadate for the expenses put out, and see if it works. If CC still have a future. If it turns out it doesn't, sell it. Move on. We don't need your words lack, we need your actions!
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby RjBeals on Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:19 am

Gillipig wrote:... we might as well be children in the school yard, discussing how our school should be run


Your entire post was great Gillipig. Lack should have done something years ago to advance the site. I wonder if he reads this stuff? Most likely not, which is why we are just like kids in a school yard. That's a great analogy.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby zimmah on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:27 am

RjBeals wrote:
Gillipig wrote:... we might as well be children in the school yard, discussing how our school should be run


Your entire post was great Gillipig. Lack should have done something years ago to advance the site. I wonder if he reads this stuff? Most likely not, which is why we are just like kids in a school yard. That's a great analogy.


this

and this

If CC still have a future. If it turns out it doesn't, sell it. Move on. We don't need your words lack, we need your actions!


sums it up quite well.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Nola_Lifer on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:31 am

Does anyone else find it funny that his name is lack :?: :P
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby greenoaks on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:35 am

Nola_Lifer wrote:Does anyone else find it funny that his name is lack :?: :P

or that turtles go into hiding when they feel attacked
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:40 am

greenoaks wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:Does anyone else find it funny that his name is lack :?: :P

or that turtles go into hiding when they feel attacked

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby degaston on Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:34 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:I would like to ask to everyone to have patience...

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:07 pm

Exactly.

:-$ :wink:

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:29 am

nobodies, what I gleam from your pic above is that some form of new code is being done now. Some questions that now arise for me are and none are what or when. ;)
Promotion of the foundry in general? Is anything happening there? You mentioned this in your PM to lack.
Why has it taken this sort of action to get anything done? Will we need to keep doing this every year to keep getting them in the future? :x
Why have we not heard from anyone apart from Andy last week? Do the higher ups really think so low of us that they cannot even post a little thing to try and explain there side? :evil:
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:20 am

Afaik Admins have reviewed some of the most desiderable and feasible updates into the "XML Suggestions and Modifications" thread and they're actively working on those. Additionally, a little monkey bird has said to me that there's an important element in the pipeline that will have an impact on the Foundry and on the CC Community at large.

Actually It's hard (and probably stupid) for me to set a timeline, that's why I'm asking to you all to be patient.

Moving further on your other questions:

koontz1973 wrote:Why has it taken this sort of action to get anything done? Will we need to keep doing this every year to keep getting them in the future?


I think that with this action we demonstrated to lackattack and the other admins, that we really care about the foundry, that's part of our days and that we enjoy what we do. It requires nothing to don't log anymore, but instead we are still here. As said it wasn't "we are full of this, good luck", but more "this is what it would be if you continue to not support us". It's different, i think that for us the place is the right one, just some things need to change with time and sometimes it's necessary something strong to see changes happen.
With this I would answer to your second question with a simple, no I don't think. I don't think this is a all days, or once a year thing. It has no sense doing something like what we did in a costant manner or it will lose its true meaning.
Honestly I think that in an year this site will be really different and it can support all the people that spend time here, not only into the foundry. If admins continue to work in the things they are working on, the future will be only great for us. As said things will change with time.

koontz1973 wrote:Why have we not heard from anyone apart from Andy last week? Do the higher ups really think so low of us that they cannot even post a little thing to try and explain there side?


Who you want come here to post? Andy is the CM and it is part of his job come here and post. And it's what he did.
What explanation do you need? If possible I can try to help.
If instead is just, why Lackattack has no posted here, the answer is simple. His hands are busy on the keyboard. If it means that for now he can't post here because he is doing what is supposed to do, then I'm happy in this way. Actions are better than words actually. :!:
And I don't think they think so low of us or no action would have been taken in that case.

Don't worry, Lackattack is reading and listening, he knows that what we did was done because we love this place and site.
Trust me. ;)

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:06 am

thenobodies80 wrote:some of the most desiderable and feasible updates into the "XML Suggestions and Modifications" thread and they're actively working on those. Additionally, a little monkey bird has said to me that there's an important element in the pipeline that will have an impact on the Foundry and on the CC Community at large.


this is the kind of hype i was afraid of.

can't we just be told directly what they're working on? what exactly are those updates and who decided which ones are the most desirable?
as for the "important element that will have an impact on the Foundry and on the CC Community at large". lol. i can't even begin to say what a recipe for disaster this is.
everybody will think about anything ranging from a flash/html5 interface to 3d maps or an interactive software for building maps.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Ace Rimmer on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:33 am

What's the over/under on how long it will take before thenobodies80 becomes bitter and disillusioned towards the site like the rest of us?
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:24 am

DiM wrote:can't we just be told directly what they're working on?


No and you know that is in that way. I asked and the answer I gave is the very best I can say right now.

DiM wrote:what exactly are those updates and who decided which ones are the most desirable?

Raising the hand. O:)
As said, I gave him some inputs, a sort of priority list....and you already know this. In any case the final say is only up to Lackattack on what is done or not.

DiM wrote:as for the "important element that will have an impact on the Foundry and on the CC Community at large". lol. i can't even begin to say what a recipe for disaster this is.
everybody will think about anything ranging from a flash/html5 interface to 3d maps or an interactive software for building maps.


People has to stop to think (about wrong things) and just wait and see....I'm starting to sound a bit repetitive?
DiM don't throw shit around before the time, wait and see. Then if we have to throw shit, I'll be the first one to help you to do that if needed and worth it.

Ace Rimmer wrote:What's the over/under on how long it will take before thenobodies80 becomes bitter and disillusioned towards the site like the rest of us?

Don't know, but that day will be the day in which I will resign from my current position.
Said that I'm not a person who surrender in front of difficulties, at least till I have a card to play.

Positivity guys! Negativity doesn't bring improvements, just more negativity.
Com'on.

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Ace Rimmer on Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:40 pm

I'll start being positive again when lack starts showing he still has the passion for CC that made him start it in the first place. I've given plenty of ideas about how to improve this site and what's wrong with it, and none of those have gone anywhere. I have a lot of faith in your ability and your passion for this site, but if lack's is gone, nothing else matters.
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