Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [16.01.14] V45 Fixes

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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [1.8.12] V19-P13 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:12 pm

sannemanrobinson wrote:....
Involving money would make it too complicated I think. As a conditional border you also do not spend the money.

Not sure i agree about money making it too complicated.

An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.

I do like this idea...it ties in well with the beacons use....but then there has to be no disadvantage given to the Spanish because of it.
Last edited by cairnswk on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [6.8.12] V21-P15 Gameplay?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:20 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.
That is already in the mix as part of the Command Vessels. ;)

Another possibility is that someone can't advance up the Treasury unless they hold both regions of the Command Vessel. For instance, I take the first Treasury Region on my first turn, but my CV is taken on the next turn, and I have to take my CV back before I can advance further.

OK, but that defeats the purpose of being able to use the forts (money) from the treasury to fight the sea battle with.

Nola_Lifer wrote:]I like this idea. Also, nice change in the movement of Treasury. One other thing, Image Hull is a bit hard to read.

Not sure that i like it all that much.
Re Hull...Yes, but that will be moved later in graphics stage when that region loses its shield.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:40 pm

Version 22....re-arrangements and space saving...height down to 864 now.
and space made for conditional borders...when decided. :)

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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby Nola_Lifer on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:10 am

Could conditional borders work with the beacons?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:41 pm

cairnswk wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.
That is already in the mix as part of the Command Vessels. ;)


As it is currently, any Command Vessel can attack any Monarch. I understand this is a pretty important aspect of the gameplay for you, but my suggestion was that a Monarch can only be attacked if one side of the Command Vessel of that Monarch is also held.

So say I start out with the Sir Francis Drake regions and my opponent has the Oquendo Regions. I slowly build up troops on one side of my command vessel (Revenge), launch an assault on his Command Vessel (Santa Ana), then use my build up of troops on the other side of Revenge to attack his Monarch. I must first possess a region of his Command Vessel before attacking his Monarch. Just throwing ideas out there :)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:45 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.

That is already in the mix as part of the Command Vessels. ;)

As it is currently, any Command Vessel can attack any Monarch. I understand this is a pretty important aspect of the gameplay for you, but my suggestion was that a Monarch can only be attacked if one side of the Command Vessel of that Monarch is also held.
So say I start out with the Sir Francis Drake regions and my opponent has the Oquendo Regions. I slowly build up troops on one side of my command vessel (Revenge), launch an assault on his Command Vessel (Santa Ana), then use my build up of troops on the other side of Revenge to attack his Monarch. I must first possess a region of his Command Vessel before attacking his Monarch. Just throwing ideas out there :)

Mmmm. OK sorry i misread/misunderstood you idea.
That's not a bad idea now thinking about it, because it might be the stop-gap measure to prevent too early an elimination in all numbers of the play.
What do others think?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:11 pm

Nola_Lifer wrote:Could conditional borders work with the beacons?


So far these suggestions have been offered...

winged_cat wrote:1, if you hold a Monarch on one side, you can attack between that side's supply ships and/or land bases.


pamoa wrote:2. maybe you need to hold the let say +3 treasury to be able to bombard from your ship; like you need money to buy powder and guns; or any variation of this idea that money trigger some gameplay feature; the idea is to link the board with the treasury


sannemanrobinson wrote:3. An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.


nolefan5311 wrote:4. Another possibility is that someone can't advance up the Treasury unless they hold both regions of the Command Vessel. For instance, I take the first Treasury Region on my first turn, but my CV is taken on the next turn, and I have to take my CV back before I can advance further.


nolefan5311 wrote:5. I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:09 pm

cairnswk wrote:So far these suggestions have been offered...
sannemanrobinson wrote:3. An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.


nolefan5311 wrote:5. I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.

I think these two make the most sense. You can always use both of these ideas ;)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:53 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:So far these suggestions have been offered...
sannemanrobinson wrote:3. An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.


nolefan5311 wrote:5. I think there are quite a bit of possibilities with the Conditional Borders, but I think the one that makes the most sense to me is that you cannot attack a Monarch unless you hold one of the two regions of his Command Vessels.

I think these two make the most sense. You can always use both of these ideas ;)

thanks for input isaiah40...
any suggestions for the wordings on these from anyone?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:16 pm

"Monarch can only be attacked while holding one region of same Monarch's Command Vessel"

"Corresponding beacon must be held before ships of same color can bombard". - With this though (I don't really know how else this can be done), you'd need to color code them or something so that people know which beacon belongs to which ship.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:51 am

nolefan5311 wrote:"Monarch can only be attacked while holding one region of same Monarch's Command Vessel"

You mean...Any Monarch can only be assaulted if holding one region of same Monarch's Command Vessel

"Corresponding beacon must be held before ships of same color can bombard". - With this though (I don't really know how else this can be done), you'd need to color code them or something so that people know which beacon belongs to which ship.

Yes i thought this would lead to colur coding...which like the rail maps is going to be difficult for CB players.

Challenge.
three consecutive beacons have to be lit per bonus +1.
Means only 4 beacons available to be lit from region on which they are in.
12 beacons...6 ships...= 2 per ship.
but only 4 beacons to be lit.
means every second beacon has to be open from the top to afford each ship an opportunity to have this condition.
how is this going to change the gameplay?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:27 am

cairnswk wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:"Monarch can only be attacked while holding one region of same Monarch's Command Vessel"

You mean...Any Monarch can only be assaulted if holding one region of same Monarch's Command Vessel

On second thoughts...
"Holding one region of your opponents Command Vessel enables assault on their Monarch"
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby iancanton on Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:26 am

sannemanrobinson wrote:3. An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.

does this give an advantage to the spanish ships, since they can always bombard, even if they don't have a beacon?

swap the position of ss bazana with that of diana. the supply ships are initially the only bonuses held, so it's fairer that ss bazana does not have the unique advantage of being tucked away in the corner where no-one can reach it even in round 2.

n2 for la manuela, foresight and york will prevent someone from taking a single at the start, then annihilating the ss paxat la isabela, brighton lb or london lb bonuses before those players have their first turn.

for the battle bonuses, eddystone +2 and fire ships +3 is more logical than vice versa. gravelines is fine at +2 because only a few players are close to it.

ian. :)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [8.8] V22-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:34 pm

iancanton wrote:
sannemanrobinson wrote:3. An other idea is to use the beacons as a condition before an English ship can bombard. There are twice the number of beacons from the number of ships so if one of the two closest beacons to a ship is lit it can bombard.

does this give an advantage to the spanish ships, since they can always bombard, even if they don't have a beacon?

yes it possibly does, and because of difficulty with the graphic coding of it, i have removed it from consideration as a conditional border.

swap the position of ss bazana with that of diana. the supply ships are initially the only bonuses held, so it's fairer that ss bazana does not have the unique advantage of being tucked away in the corner where no-one can reach it even in round 2.
Done!
n2 for la manuela, foresight and york will prevent someone from taking a single at the start, then annihilating the ss paxat la isabela, brighton lb or london lb bonuses before those players have their first turn.

Done

for the battle bonuses, eddystone +2 and fire ships +3 is more logical than vice versa. gravelines is fine at +2 because only a few players are close to it.
ian. :)

Done! Thanks Ian :)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [14.8] V23-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:41 pm

Version 23...changes from above.

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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [14.8] V23-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:04 pm

So cairns, how do you feel about putting a last call out there for GP input so we can get this stamped and moved up?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [14.8] V23-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:21 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:So cairns, how do you feel about putting a last call out there for GP input so we can get this stamped and moved up?

No...not yet...i don't know if ian has finished looking at everything...and are there any conditional borders that can be done?
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [14.8] V23-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby iancanton on Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:52 am

let santa marta have n2 to prevent ss bazana from being bombarded so easily by doncella.

there's a shield on cygnet, but v2 is on frida.

the border between tf(a) and tf(b) needs to be made clearer. it's very faint.

i've no more gameplay issues.

there's no need, in the upper treasury legend, to say that earnings are cumulative. auto-deploys, by their nature, cannot be non-cumulative. u're better off using that space to say that earnings are auto-deploy, since this fact is hidden away at the bottom.

in the lower treasury legend, each player can move one-way outward (not up) to earn additional auto-deploy bonuses or can assault from any treasury region to same player's command vessel is clearer than what u have. additional because every monarch starts with +1 auto-deploy, a fact which isn't explicitly stated elsewhere.

lose the part in the legend about assaults being 1 in any direction. no map needs to say this, since it's in the rules.

the conditional border text might read a player may use a command vessel region to assault any commander's monarch region, but only if one region of that commander's command vessel is held. i presume that a command vessel can assault any commander's monarch region, including his own.

ian. :)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [14.8] V23-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:01 pm

iancanton wrote:let santa marta have n2 to prevent ss bazana from being bombarded so easily by doncella.
Done!

there's a shield on cygnet, but v2 is on frida.
Fixed!

the border between tf(a) and tf(b) needs to be made clearer. it's very faint.
Fixed!

i've no more gameplay issues.
Thank-you for the marvellous job you've done on this ian. =D> =D>


there's no need, in the upper treasury legend, to say that earnings are cumulative. auto-deploys, by their nature, cannot be non-cumulative. u're better off using that space to say that earnings are auto-deploy, since this fact is hidden away at the bottom.
Done.

in the lower treasury legend, each player can move one-way outward (not up) to earn additional auto-deploy bonuses or can assault from any treasury region to same player's command vessel is clearer than what u have. additional because every monarch starts with +1 auto-deploy, a fact which isn't explicitly stated elsewhere.
Done!

lose the part in the legend about assaults being 1 in any direction. no map needs to say this, since it's in the rules.
Done!

the conditional border text might read a player may use a command vessel region to assault any commander's monarch region, but only if one region of that commander's command vessel is held. i presume that a command vessel can assault any commander's monarch region, including his own.
ian. :)

mmm. i'll keep this in mind if i have sapce to fill...it's very wordy.
Thanks ian :)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [20.8] V24-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:41 pm

Version 24...fron changes above

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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [20.8] V24-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby pamoa on Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:38 am

as I love nitpicking :lol: I noticed some labelling hesitations

3rd bonus label should be "Command Vessel" instead of "Command Ship"

Treasury movement legend says twice "to same player's Command Vessel"

for me there is a contradiction or better to say a duplicate when you explain
in Command Vessels legend "Bow and Stern can assault ... any Commander's Monarch"
and in Conditional Borders "Any Monarch can be assaulted only if holding one region of the same Monarch's Command Vessel"
what I suggest is a fusion
you don't need to say it is a conditional border if your legend explains clearly the conditions
and I would avoid the term region speaking of a part of a Vessel
so here is my proposition
"Bow and Stern can assault each other & adjacent ships"
"Bow or Stern can assault any Monarch's Commander only if holding Bow or Stern of the same Monarch's Commander

and also for the beauty of the text
instead of Losing Condition I would say
"Commander's deposition : any Player failing to hold one non-Treasury region and one Treasury region or Monarch's Commander, will be removed from the game"

and... :?
no that's all your doing great =D>
for now :lol:
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [20.8] V24-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:30 pm

pamoa...my monitor has gone down and am using a back-up CTX old version...so as soon as i get my new monitor i'll have a look at those things above.
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [20.8] V24-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby pamoa on Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:44 am

cairnswk wrote:pamoa...my monitor has gone down and am using a back-up CTX old version...so as soon as i get my new monitor i'll have a look at those things above.
no hurry your doing great
de gueules à la tour d'argent ouverte, crénelée de trois pièces, sommée d'un donjon ajouré, crénelé de deux pièces
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [20.8] V24-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby iancanton on Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:12 pm

everyone's out of gameplay comments, so it's time for this!

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ian. :)
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Re: 1588 Spanish Armada [20.8] V24-P16 GP Cond Borders?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:23 pm

iancanton wrote:everyone's out of gameplay comments, so it's time for this!

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ian. :)

thanks ian...i'll address those issues above in the next few weeks.
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