Classic Cities: Madrid [Quenched]

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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [10/9] V9 Pg 1/3 Is gameplay good?

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:21 pm

ian, your opinion is noted, and I agree that it is similar to a lot of maps we have that are small. That is the thing, small maps are not interesting. They never have been and never will. This is the reason I hate copies and have tried to always do things that are different from a previous map of mine. But I really like the idea of a map that is zoomed in a lot. Let me have a play with it today and see if I can get some of the major buildings to really stand up without becoming obstructive.


How about we give the map a winning condition like Copenhagen then. Again like that map (this is starting to sound a lot like this map is a copy of others so lets make it a copy of different ones). :lol:

How about a good Samaritan theme then. I just change it from buildings to people. There are 12 people on the map, hold any 7 to win. A bit lame and not very interesting, and again, it has been done at least 10 times before. :(


Moved the buildings are impassable up to go with the rules at the top.
Shrunk the text a tad so everything fits.
Brought the people back as the last two versions they where missing.
Added the wining condition to the bottom.
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [10/9] V9 Pg 1/3 Is gameplay good?

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:10 am

I don't like the objective koontz...I'd remove it. I can't really even tell which people I would need to hold.
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [10/9] V9 Pg 1/3 Is gameplay good?

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:41 am

nolefan5311 wrote:I don't like the objective koontz...I'd remove it. I can't really even tell which people I would need to hold.

Yep, I do not like it either. I have spent the last few hours trying different combos for the buildings but cannot get anything that looks even half way decent. The buildings need to be a lot bigger to fit army numbers and names on so they just look out of scale. Putting them into postcards at the side destroys the overall look as well. Zooming in to the map seems to work the best but destroys the overall feel.There are a lot of things in the centre that can go over the map and then the territs become street names, but then you need to have a combo of street names and objective names. Looks wrong and feels wrong. Buildings placed in the middle of the territs for the WC confuses there purpose. Sorry ian but if you and nole both do not like the objective on the map now, I will remove it and keep it as it was. A very simple map with simple gameplay. I know it is nothing special and game play wise I am embarrassed to have my name on it, but graphically I think now it is more than a breath of fresh air. Please forgive me but can I have it as is now (with or without the WC). I promise to make more complicated maps in future, Escape is pretty complicated ;) and considering that this is my first map that is completely normal, it is not that bad.
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [10/9] V9 Pg 1/3 Is gameplay good?

Postby iancanton on Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:27 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Sorry ian but if you and nole both do not like the objective on the map now, I will remove it and keep it as it was. A very simple map with simple gameplay. I know it is nothing special and game play wise I am embarrassed to have my name on it, but graphically I think now it is more than a breath of fresh air.

no need to be embarrassed at all! this is a small map of 24 regions, so doodle-style gameplay is perfectly suitable. i actually thought that u were pulling my leg when u mentioned the objective in the latest version.

it's my fault for not expressing myself clearly and i apologise for any time wasted: i had in mind a map with regions like those in copenhagen sightseeing, in other words regions representing landmarks or well-known neighbourhoods instead of the bland administrative districts that u have, but u wrongly assumed i didn't like the gameplay instead (understandable because my main remit is to discuss gameplay).

my vision is a zoomed-in version made up of buildings, squares, markets, museums and other public areas (though not streets, which are the wrong shape), losing all of the outer districts and the boring administrative names. this type of map does not work well if u draw it to scale because many of the interesting places are clustered together, with big gaps to one or two others, so u have to draw it out of scale, in the same way that the traditional london underground map is out of scale. troop counts actually on the buildings themselves will obscure the artwork, which isn't really what we want.

do try to keep the overall look of the map in some form. we have nothing that resembles it.

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [10/9] V9 Pg 1/3 Is gameplay good?

Postby ManBungalow on Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:20 pm

What is even going on in this map ?
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [10/9] V9 Pg 1/3 Is gameplay good?

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:21 pm

ManBungalow wrote:What is even going on in this map ?

What do you mean by that?

ian, I take it then you want the names changing then to Copenhagen style. Not districts but a general what is in that area feel. PMed the Madrid players that have helped me on this one to suggest some. Will get it done as soon as they respond as this is there city and they know what's what.

But is this something like what you are after? Something more cartoon like.
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EDIT: reread your original post, with the moving of the 4 main buildings, zoo, stadium, bullring and station. Will get onto that now. But I think the names that are going to be changed I will keep in the style above. For any major building, it will get that name but for the rest I think a comic style of name would fit the map.
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [10/9] V9 Pg 1/3 Is gameplay good?

Postby iancanton on Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:23 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Not districts but a general what is in that area feel.

exactly!

koontz1973 wrote:PMed the Madrid players that have helped me on this one to suggest some. Will get it done as soon as they respond as this is there city and they know what's what.

i'm sure they'll tell us whether we're heading in the right direction!

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [10/9] V9 Pg 1/3 Is gameplay good?

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:16 am

Went into google maps and looked at photos of each district from what tourists think are worth photographing. Names changes have come from those. The district names where correct as instructed by players from Madrid so these places should also be correct.

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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [10/9] V9 Pg 1/3 Is gameplay good?

Postby iancanton on Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:09 am

the new names are much more in line with what i expect from a city map, rather than the london or hong kong maps that are good mainly if u have an interest in local government.

now the final step toward the theme that i outlined earlier is to focus on the centre, as given in the list below, by eliminating the outer ring of regions and expanding the remaining area to include the better-known places.
snelliugmj wrote:I hardly recognize any of the buildings that are there, In fact the city has several distinct atractions (check on google images for: Puerta del sol, puerta de alcalá, oso y madroño, plaza castilla, cibeles, neptuno, palacio real, plaza mayor, parque del retiro, museo del prado, atocha, Santiago bernabeu, torre picasso, conjunto 4 torres).


perhaps one way to effect this change is to start by renaming the regions as if u were covering only central madrid: palacio de pardo becomes plaza de castilla, barajas becomes ventas and so on; after this, draw suitable pictures for each region; after this is done, impassables and the river can be shifted to fit the new names and pictures (the position of the river is already wrong for the original map, so u'll have to change it anyway, since it ought to run to the west of plaza de espana).

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [22/9] V9 Pg 1/4 New Names. GP?

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:08 am

ian, I am doing the re draw now but I need to know, is the GP good for you and nole? Each of these buildings take time to draw so to cut back on the wasted time, is there any territ lines, crossings or anything else that needs to be moved or changed? If I know now, then I can incorporate it in.
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [22/9] V9 Pg 1/4 New Names. GP?

Postby iancanton on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:00 pm

koontz1973 wrote:ian, I am doing the re draw now but I need to know, is the GP good for you and nole? Each of these buildings take time to draw so to cut back on the wasted time, is there any territ lines, crossings or anything else that needs to be moved or changed? If I know now, then I can incorporate it in.

i agree with the gameplay principles that u've set, that of 8 start positions of 1 region each, with underlying neutrals of 2 and limited to a maximum of 1 position per player, so that no-one gains a starting bonus.

if u use the existing map as a base, then the bonus zone borders will obviously change depending on which places u use, for example there might be 5 regions in a bonus zone that contains puerto del sol, plaza mayor, palacio real, museo del prado and plaza de cibeles (or the boundaries might change if u choose different locations or group the regions differently).

the only real clanger u have on the original map is that u've put plaza de espana on the wrong side of the river, which itself is visually too prominent and central. in fact, most people don't even know that madrid has a river going thru it. i did intend atocha to be at the bottom of the map, but only after u expanded the centre: the correct position on the new map will be next to both museo del prado and parque del retiro.

try choosing the names first (i gave two of them to u already in the previous post) and seeing whether they fit the existing map with a few tweaks, as a rough diagram for gameplay purposes. this change isn't as difficult as on some other maps because of the small number of regions and because no-one is likely to be grossly insulted by a bonus zone being called one name rather than another. if u ensure that the regions connect sensibly to each other (i'll probably ask for impassables to be changed) and there isn't one big bonus zone in the middle and small ones round the outside, then u're more than halfway there.

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [22/9] V9 Pg 1/4 New Names. GP?

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:08 pm

I have zoomed right in with the re draw. The whole of the red region is now Casa de Campo. It is a huge park in Madrid which holds the zoo and other attractions like an amusement park as well. Have started on the centre set. I am trying to keep the same basic layout but make it more based on the city itself. I was trying to get away (as much as possible) from the standard maps we have which is why the comical style.
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [22/9] V9 Pg 1/4 New Names. GP?

Postby iancanton on Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:04 pm

"zoomed right in" sounds good. the nature of a city is that roads are everywhere, but we must have impassables for gameplay purposes. regarding connections, u therefore have quite a lot of choice as to which region borders what, as long as u keep it fairly logical.

ian. :)
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [22/9] V9 Pg 1/4 New Names. GP?

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:39 am

Keeping the same basic layout with the roads that are on there. As you say, roads are everywhere and as no names have been given to them, it does not matter what they are. Having problems with the center 6 territs but that came about with the buildings chosen and the scale of which to draw them. Retiro park and the bull ring stay where they are but have gone through a re draw for what is around them. I hope to get the next version up at the weekend.

Territ lines, going to keep these in, using the roads would be better but with the crossings and the buildings, I am not sure if they will be noticed in the tight spaces.
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Re: Classic Cities Madrid [22/9] V9 Pg 1/4 New Names. GP?

Postby iancanton on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:23 am

merge orange and pink, which are two tiny bonus zones on the edge of the map. similarly, yellow and cyan. consider splitting green into two, to prevent the central area from becoming a wasteland that no-one wants.

straighten out most of the roads if u can. straight roads that take a turn only at intersections are typical of the city itself, while the motorway-style curves that u have fit the outer suburbs better. eliminate the centre line on the roads, to help to distinguish the zebra crossings.

ian. :)
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