Labyrinth [Quenched]

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Re: Labyrinth [6/9] Page 17 Small and all others.

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:51 pm

Fixed the double rock problem I just noticed and cleaned up the image.
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Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby RedBaron0 on Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:27 pm

In an effort to generate some conversion here's what I have to say, I know I can be more than quiet at times, but listen: It's a nice looking map, but but overall it just isn't all that good. A couple years ago it probably woulda passed through, but not now. Honestly I'm reminded of early 1980's video games from this, the whole of the map just seems to have that grainy pixelly quality. Also I don't get a good sense of the maze at all, it just has blobby sections of impassibles that are supposed to be rock. The labyrinth I've almost always seen has nice smooth walls, and impossibly huge. While I understand the limitations here, I just am not feeling any of that here, just a bad video game look. Sorry koontz.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:28 am

RB0, I know you are quiet and without any comments from you, it is hard for me to steer a map in a direction that you would like.
It's a nice looking map, but but overall it just isn't all that good.

Contradicting yourself in a sentence is not always a good way.
Honestly I'm reminded of early 1980's video games from this

I am glad. This was the look that was went for.
the whole of the map just seems to have that grainy pixelly quality.

grainy yes, trying to draw grass at the scale, you will always get that look, as for pixelly, I doubt that it has pixelation?
Also I don't get a good sense of the maze at all, it just has blobby sections of impassibles that are supposed to be rock. The labyrinth I've almost always seen has nice smooth walls, and impossibly huge. The labyrinth I've almost always seen has nice smooth walls, and impossibly huge. While I understand the limitations here, I just am not feeling any of that here, just a bad video game look.

Those blobby sections (I take it you mean the small ones) where put in so the movement part of the legend could be taken out. As for the walls, as you say, I am limited for the size and if I had to redo the whole map over again, then I might of taken it in a different way, but that would mean know a complete rethink of all game play. So by doing what you ask, are you really telling me that I need to bin this one after so many months, and go all the way back to the drafting board?

I just am not feeling any of that here, just a bad video game look. Sorry koontz.

Not a problem. But this is what frustrates me the most. Natty did it a lot I it really pissed me off no end. What you have posted is all opinion and there is nothing specific. You say the walls are not how you would like them, but you do not say how you would like them? I understand about the height thing but that comes from the games aspect of the map. How can the Greeks watch if the walls are a 100 feet tall.

About the walls though, did you want to see them smoother or something different?
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:05 pm

I do think smoother would be better, I just don't know how you'd get a better visual for the maze itself. I'm not saying to go back to the drawing board for it, not at all. Something like this:

Image

incorporated into your design I think would do wonders. Often the maze is depicted as being round, but this is square and so it the map. The impassible rock could be more like blocks than amorphous rock. Those would be true impassibles, while passible, thin walls would be the borders between the territory blocks. Giving us the image of the maze... the Labyrinth.

koontz1973 wrote:RB0, I know you are quiet and without any comments from you, it is hard for me to steer a map in a direction that you would like.

RedBaron0 wrote:It's a nice looking map, but but overall it just isn't all that good.


The point... of my statement is that a nice map is not a map that meets with the standards of the Foundry. It is my opinion, yes, but no one else is saying anything, refute me, please, I welcome the discussion...

The 80's type video game look, great then, you hit it pretty well. I hadn't notice any other mention of it before though... at least not in the terminology I put it in, if I missed something then I'm sorry.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:01 am

No, the style was never brought up. As for smother walls, that I can do. Will get it done this weekend for you. That is a nice maze, shame when I started this one I did not know the things I do now, or it could of turned out more like that, but if you feel the map is not labs enough, I can always revert to a previous title (Greek Games).

I know the overall look is very same y in that I have identical icons, spacing between territs, etc etc. But that all comes from game play and making use of the space I have.

RB0, give me a list of of your top things you do not like, and what you would like to see. More than happy to get it done.

Is this the reason you came here. Game 11328673 My selective bombing. :lol:
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby RedBaron0 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:54 am

Labs is fine, better than Greek Games for sure. (Greek Games would give me more of feeling of the Olympics...)

Basically what'd I'd like to see is the black territory borders covered over in spots. Put "walls" there, make a maze of it. These walls won't have an bearing on gameplay, save for a block on the 4 corners, and if you go with something square, best to put on as a diamond. Those blocks would easily blend into the "walls" as a post between slabs, and still be needed on each corner.

It's really the only thing bothering me that this labyrinth really doesn't depict any sort of maze.

Nooooo, I got only a few maps to deal with gfx wise, figured I'd just stir the pot. ;) Is the only reason YOU selectively targeted me, is because I said something here? :P
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby ManBungalow on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:40 am

The Greek characters spelling out 'LABYRINTH' are just...wrong.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:03 pm

Will make the big slabs of rock smoother and the small blobby ones elongated. As for changing it to diamonds, you do realize that is a complete redraw and gameplay do over. I hope you where suggesting this for a sequal map and not this one? And no, I only bombed you as you seemed to of started putting troops there to attack me.

Labs title font can change MB. Can I ask what is wrong with it?
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby ManBungalow on Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:31 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Labs title font can change MB. Can I ask what is wrong with it?


The Greek characters in the title don't mean anything like that.

In my opinion, you can spell 'labyrinth' using our usual Roman alphabet or you can use the Greek form (wikipedia tells me that it's 'λαβύρινθος' ) - not both.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby tkr4lf on Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:45 pm

I don't see that there is anything wrong with it. It's a stylistic thing. It's like when people use Cyrillic to spell things out in English when there is a Russian/Soviet theme.

Yeah, the letters don't actually mean that, but pretty much everybody is going to know what's going on with it. Even Greek people will see that it spells out Labyrinth in English. I think it's fine the way it is.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:00 am

MB, if the title goes into the Greek alphabet, no one will be able to read it. It would become nonsense. As for moving it into the Roman alphabet, it again is wrong as it is not a Roman map. So both of your choices are bad for those reasons. The title has to be able to be read and the font used is called something Greek which is why it was used. This is going to turn into the cairnswk / Oneyed argument in the Moscow thread over that title. It stays as is unless you point me towards a better font to use then.
Labs is fine, better than Greek Games for sure. (Greek Games would give me more of feeling of the Olympics...)

That was one of the reasons it got changed from Greek Games of Death (too long) to Greek Games (Olympic year) to Labs.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Page 1/17

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:13 am

RB0, here is a quick mock up of the walls made smother and larger. I can see what you mean by making it more of a maze but it feels wrong to me. If this is the way it has to be done, then I will get them done nice. Sorry it took so long to do the mock up.

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Wall mock up page 18

Postby RedBaron0 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:28 pm

It definitely doesn't look good.... I was kinda expecting something regular with defined edges, like blocks. The best example I can think, especially in the realm of mid 80's type video games is the wall block in the original Legend of Zelda, in fact a lot of the Labyrinth levels there have the same kind of feel as you do here.

Image

I wouldn't say it has to totally replicate this of course, but a similar style block, kinda crumbly would work quite nicely.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Wall mock up page 18

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:58 pm

Here's your blocks RB0. I do not like them but I will defer to your judgement.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Wall mock up page 18

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:02 am

It definitely looks more "pillar like" from the top. Cleaner and more maze like, imo. What about the stone areas around the edge of the map?

Also, I think the color for Medusa's Gaze is a little out of place.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Square blocks/walls page 18

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:08 am

Stone areas around the edges will stay. Sort of like a dug out quarry is being used. Medusa gaze has not changed colour for a long time. Why has it suddenly become a problem now?
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Square blocks/walls page 18

Postby IcePack on Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:20 am

i dont like the blocks...
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Square blocks/walls page 18

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:47 am

IcePack wrote:i dont like the blocks...

ditto,
One of the reasons why I do not like them is that they are not organic. One of the problems with this map is the way it is designed. For each of the starting positions to become equal or as near equal as possible it became necessary to have a lot of the same icons all over the map. So Medusa and all of the other icons needed to have a the same difference between themselves and the opening territs. The only ones that are out of whack are the food and swords, even those are pretty well balanced for all 8 starting positions. So how do you get some of the sameness out of a map that is the same everywhere. You get a little creative with the impassables. Some maps have the same mountain copied all over and players say this is not a nice thing. Look at the trouble cairnswk had over New Zealand's mountains. This is just the same thing but done with a different impassable.So to get away from the sameness problem, I made every impassable different. Some large, some small, thick, thin, tall or short, everyone of the original ones had a life of its own.

The second reason why I do not like them is this, the impassable (graphics) now seem to of taken over because of the title. If this map had been named Maze, then RB0s posted graphic
Image
would of worked as a template for the map. Far more walls, but set a lot thinner. Would this make for a game/map, yes, but would it make for a better map, well that is for someone else to make and then we can compare the two. Looking at RB0s second picture,
Image
gave me the direction for the current set up, and like the first one, it gives a large blocky feel to the impassables. Something that is solid and impassable but not very nice as you get a lot of the same grey slabs all over the map. If we went back to Greek Games or Greek Games of Death as the title, this issue would not of really come up. Even as it is now, the title of labyrinth does not really convey the look of the map as compared to the labyrinth posted by RB0. So we can change the title and keep the originals but as it stands now, the grey blocks are shit and no matter how much I improve them or change them, they will always be grey slabs of shit.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Square blocks/walls page 18

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:02 am

koontz1973 wrote:
IcePack wrote:i dont like the blocks...

the grey blocks are shit and no matter how much I improve them or change them, they will always be grey slabs of shit.


This is a defeatist attitude. You know if you really decided to work on them you could get them to the point where you liked them. But you don't like them, so you don't want to work on them.

Personally, I think the blocks are a big improvement. They look much more intentional, as if the creators of the maze chiseled them and then intentionally put them there to make the slaves life more difficult. It looks like a maze, or a labyrinth. One option is not for each cell grid to be an individual block, but a grouping of them (i.e., you remove the borders of them on the inside of the maps blocks, if you know what I mean).

koontz1973 wrote:Stone areas around the edges will stay. Sort of like a dug out quarry is being used. Medusa gaze has not changed colour for a long time. Why has it suddenly become a problem now?


I'm going to be nitpicky about the this, but the stones around the outside just don't really look good. Rock/stones don't have those features, even after they've been dug out...like water spilling from outside the map or like the stone is gradually creeping into the game board like vines or something. Instead of individual blocks, you could have one solid wall along the outside, etc. When rock is chiseled in the way you mean, it doesn't have jagged un-uniform edges. Additionally, the edges are usually as smooth as possible so that a person can't climb up the walls of the maze and escape.

And as far as the color for Medusa's gaze goes, it's certainly not a problem. It was just a suggestion.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Square blocks/walls page 18

Postby sannemanrobinson on Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:34 am

The blocks give some clarity and pleasing order to this map that it needs.

The brown ground layer that the minotaur is standing on is a bit confusing. it almost looks like an impassable.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Square blocks/walls page 18

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:03 am

nolefan5311 wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
IcePack wrote:i dont like the blocks...

the grey blocks are shit and no matter how much I improve them or change them, they will always be grey slabs of sh*t.


This is a defeatist attitude. You know if you really decided to work on them you could get them to the point where you liked them. But you don't like them, so you don't want to work on them.

It is not a defeatist attitude. And no matter what you do to them, they will always be out of scale at this size. Also, if I was unwilling to work on them, why have I done all this over the last few days. You are sell me short their nole.You could make them the best looking blobs of grey ever and even then they would be out of scale. They are bloody huge and up to recently have not been a problem for anyone. We went through this map piece by piece including the impassables and adding the small rocks. There just has to be a time when radical overhauls have to be said no to. RB0 himself looked at the mock up last time and said it looked bad, this is just the same but with a few features on and made square.
They look much more intentional, as if the creators of the maze chiseled them and then intentionally put them there to make the slaves life more difficult. It looks like a maze, or a labyrinth.

Thats the problem though, like this it does not look like a maze at all. RB0 posted a decent maze and that is what a maze should be like. This is not a maze.
One option is not for each cell grid to be an individual block, but a grouping of them (i.e., you remove the borders of them on the inside of the maps blocks, if you know what I mean).

I know what you mean and will give that a go, but I still think it will look like sh*t.
I'm going to be nitpicky about the this, but the stones around the outside just don't really look good. Rock/stones don't have those features, even after they've been dug out

Does not matter, stone/rock comes in all types of formations. It could easily be passed of as a lava flow that has cooled or an out cropping that has been weathered after centuries. Either way, it makes not difference.
The brown ground layer that the minotaur is standing on is a bit confusing. it almost looks like an impassable.

Will look into it.

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Square blocks/walls page 18

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:36 am

koontz1973 wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
IcePack wrote:i dont like the blocks...

the grey blocks are shit and no matter how much I improve them or change them, they will always be grey slabs of sh*t.


This is a defeatist attitude. You know if you really decided to work on them you could get them to the point where you liked them. But you don't like them, so you don't want to work on them.

It is not a defeatist attitude. And no matter what you do to them, they will always be out of scale at this size. You could make them the best looking blobs of grey ever and even then they would be out of scale. They are bloody huge and up to recently have not been a problem for anyone. We went through this map piece by piece including the impassables and adding the small rocks. There just has to be a time when radical overhauls have to be said no to. RB0 himself looked at the mock up last time and said it looked bad, this is just the same but with a few features on and made square.


You can say no to them, that's fine. I'm not sure how likely the map is to get a stamp if you say no, but it's your map. And just to be clear, this map has not been subject to intense graphics scrutiny prior to this phase, and that's what it's under right now.

koontz1973 wrote:
They look much more intentional, as if the creators of the maze chiseled them and then intentionally put them there to make the slaves life more difficult. It looks like a maze, or a labyrinth.

Thats the problem though, like this it does not look like a maze at all. RB0 posted a decent maze and that is what a maze should be like. This is not a maze.


A labyrinth is a maze. You can't have a perfect maze because it wouldn't pass GP, but as is,
for all intents and purposes, it's a maze. Each player starts from a different location and they all race to the center with the aim of getting there first.

koontz1973 wrote:
I'm going to be nitpicky about the this, but the stones around the outside just don't really look good. Rock/stones don't have those features, even after they've been dug out

Does not matter, stone/rock comes in all types of formations. It could easily be passed of as a lava flow that has cooled or an out cropping that has been weathered after centuries. Either way, it makes not difference.


If you feel this is best, then so be it. Just as is I don't think it looks good.

Edited to add I don't like how those look unless you were to play around with them some.
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Even more walls. page 19

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:08 am

You can say no to them, that's fine. I'm not sure how likely the map is to get a stamp if you say no, but it's your map. And just to be clear, this map has not been subject to intense graphics scrutiny prior to this phase, and that's what it's under right now.

So if a map maker says he does not like the way his map is being pushed towards, then it does not get a stamp? I am all for experimenting with new things but to say that one person has that much power over everyone else in the foundry is a bit OTT. Here is a couple of the early versions with the same type of blocks as now. No one liked them and got me to change them to this, now I am being made to go back to this.
Click image to enlarge.
image

Click image to enlarge.
image


And yes, this map has been under scrutiny graphically. Since the first time I posted it, it has had scrutiny. I remember making lots of the icons different, legend has gone through lots of changes. Not one part of this map has stayed the same from the start.

Do not make me out to be the bad guy here or even as a trouble maker, when have I ever said no to anyone when they have asked. You say this is better, I disagree. RB0 wanted this to see and I gave it to him, you wanted the tops done differently, I did it. How am I now the bad guy in all this?
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Even more walls. page 19

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:50 am

koontz1973 wrote:
You can say no to them, that's fine. I'm not sure how likely the map is to get a stamp if you say no, but it's your map. And just to be clear, this map has not been subject to intense graphics scrutiny prior to this phase, and that's what it's under right now.

So if a map maker says he does not like the way his map is being pushed towards, then it does not get a stamp? I am all for experimenting with new things but to say that one person has that much power over everyone else in the foundry is a bit OTT. Here is a couple of the early versions with the same type of blocks as now. No one liked them and got me to change them to this, now I am being made to go back to this.


I don't remember seeing that honestly, but I don't think it should have ever changed from that (the second one specifically). Much more crisp. I'm not sure who told you to change it to what you have now, but I like it a lot more. Again, I'm a gameplay guy, not a graphics guy...if isaiah or RB don't like it or think you're better off going a different route, then you'd be better off listening to them, but it just looks more "finished" to me.

koontz1973 wrote:And yes, this map has been under scrutiny graphically. Since the first time I posted it, it has had scrutiny. I remember making lots of the icons different, legend has gone through lots of changes. Not one part of this map has stayed the same from the start.

Do not make me out to be the bad guy here or even as a trouble maker, when have I ever said no to anyone when they have asked. You say this is better, I disagree. RB0 wanted this to see and I gave it to him, you wanted the tops done differently, I did it. How am I now the bad guy in all this?


I'm not making you out to be a troublemaker or the bad guy. I just don't want to see what happened to Jakarta happen to this map...get all the way to FF and the community has a sort of backlash against the graphics of the map and then you have to completely redo it. Might as well get it all taken care of now.

And I agree that it has gone under scrutiny previously, but a lot of the stuff you mentioned was gameplay related, and even then, you had issues with some of the grammatical suggestions I gave you. But you're going for the graphics stamp now. Scrutiny is going to be more intense...you know this. Sorry if I've come across as anything other than constructive...perhaps my frustration at things is showing itself in this thread.

And just a question...what about the second version isn't better than what you have?
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Re: Labyrinth [14/9] Even more walls. page 19

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:08 pm

And just a question...what about the second version isn't better than what you have?

No, the second one is total rubbish. It just looks fake.
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