Mods On Strike?

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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby fadedpsychosis on Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:20 pm

nagerous wrote:
fadedpsychosis wrote:wrap those up with #4 as "power"


I don't see a correlation,what I referred to was like working at HR at a workplace, you don't have power per se but you still have juicy information on everyone like what people earn.

"Knowledge is power"
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby swimmerdude99 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:54 pm

Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.

Then don't read them?
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby Serbia on Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:59 pm

Pay me $10,000, and I'll gladly go on a week-long strike from CC, demanding a trollface.jpg smiley and shit like that.
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:03 pm

Serbia wrote:Pay me $10,000, and I'll gladly go on a week-long strike from CC, demanding a trollface.jpg smiley and shit like that.


That's not usually how it works...
You all are the ones who need to organize, you will be paid by your success. ;)
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby squishyg on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:08 pm

So your plan is to overthrow CC by hoping a whole bunch of other people do something? That's a fantastic idea! Right after I post a breast cancer awareness meme on Facebook and donate to Kony 2012 I'll join your amazing protest.
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:21 pm

squishyg wrote:So your plan is to overthrow CC by hoping a whole bunch of other people do something? That's a fantastic idea! Right after I post a breast cancer awareness meme on Facebook and donate to Kony 2012 I'll join your amazing protest.


What can I, one man do? This is my effort. If I were a mod you can be sure I would be on board but I am merely making an attempt at organizing. Do you have a better suggestion or is your squishy-headed post your idea of constructive criticism? If you want to fling poo like a baboon, maybe off-topic would be a more comfortable choice for you.
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby jefjef on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:48 am

swimmerdude99 wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.

Then don't read them?


all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby fadedpsychosis on Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:38 pm

jefjef wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.

Then don't read them?


all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.

why would you ever allow a masturbating poo flinging ape behind the wheel of an automobile?
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:02 pm

fadedpsychosis wrote:
jefjef wrote:
all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.

why would you ever allow a masturbating poo flinging ape behind the wheel of an automobile?


That is a question for jefjef's driving instructor.
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby Gillipig on Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:23 pm

jefjef wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.

Then don't read them?


all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.


Guys, stop shitting on apes. They've done nothing wrong!

As for the strike, why not? Not that I think it will work, new, even less competent people will be assigned and the "ape shit" will continue. (No pun on you andy ;))
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:15 pm

Gillipig wrote:Guys, stop shitting on apes. They've done nothing wrong!

As for the strike, why not? Not that I think it will work, new, even less competent people will be assigned and the "ape shit" will continue. (No pun on you andy ;))


Aw come on man, don't be a defeatist. ;)

Is curious george an ape or a monkey? I never got into those books as a kid.
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby swimmerdude99 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:18 pm

jefjef wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.

Then don't read them?


all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.

I forgot why you were foed... but I think its because either you stopped posting alot or I stopped reading forums as much.
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby Serbia on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:33 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Serbia wrote:Pay me $10,000, and I'll gladly go on a week-long strike from CC, demanding a trollface.jpg smiley and shit like that.


That's not usually how it works...
You all are the ones who need to organize, you will be paid by your success. ;)


Yeah no you lost me. I'd rather watch whatever shitty program is on TV right now than - wait, they're talking about the Iphone, and someone is saying they don't need to be a geek to use it. I don't have one... any here have one? Is this thing worth all the hype?
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:23 pm

Serbia wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
Serbia wrote:Pay me $10,000, and I'll gladly go on a week-long strike from CC, demanding a trollface.jpg smiley and shit like that.


That's not usually how it works...
You all are the ones who need to organize, you will be paid by your success. ;)


Yeah no you lost me. I'd rather watch whatever shitty program is on TV right now than - wait, they're talking about the Iphone, and someone is saying they don't need to be a geek to use it. I don't have one... any here have one? Is this thing worth all the hype?


Puss. Are all volunteers as yellow bellied or please tell me you are the exception to the rule? I can smell a coward a mile away.
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Re: Mods On Strike?

Postby Serbia on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:43 pm

Yep, total coward. Meanie-face.
I forget what I'm supposed to be so up in arms over though. Why do you want me to be angry? Or wait - is this your fight? Hmm... so I'm the coward, because I am not mad enough about (something) to want to fight your fight. GOTCHA.
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Re: Mods On Strike?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:50 pm

Serbia wrote:Yep, total coward. Meanie-face.
I forget what I'm supposed to be so up in arms over though. Why do you want me to be angry? Or wait - is this your fight? Hmm... so I'm the coward, because I am not mad enough about (something) to want to fight your fight. GOTCHA.


Yeah, I was trying to get a rise out of you(common organizer tactic). I failed miserably. :(
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby Foxglove on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:51 pm

#1_stunna wrote:all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.
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Re: Mods On Strike?

Postby Evil Semp on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:02 pm

I didn't become a mod to change the way lack runs this site. If I become unhappy with the way it is run I will just stop coming back. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Is it bad enough for me to quit? No.
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Re: Mods On Strike?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:56 pm

Evil Semp wrote:I didn't become a mod to change the way lack runs this site. If I become unhappy with the way it is run I will just stop coming back. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Is it bad enough for me to quit? No.


I suppose striking is like quitting but strikers want to work, they just don't like the conditions. I respect your position and really don't want anyone to think that I want mods to have to quit permanently or even strike against their will. I just figured it was an option that may not have been considered by some people. Some people are anti-union by nature and I accept that but unless someone comes up and says they are anti (like ES), there's no way to know for sure.
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Re: Mods On Strike?

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:59 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Anyone want to tell me why this is a bad idea?

You've been so consistently depressing and negative lately that I've started ignoring you as one does with trolls. But then I thought about the fact that you used to be an interesting poster, and I used to enjoy reading what you have to say, so maybe before I write you off completely I should take one shot at achieving an understanding.

Okay, so why is this a bad idea? Let's get started.

1. A successful strike needs a clearly defined set of demands.
We actually did have a successful strike on CC not too long ago, when the mapmakers went on strike, demanding some XML upgrades in the foundry. That was a pretty specific demand, and they got it. But what, specifically, do you think the mods should demand site-wide?

There is absolutely no general consensus on what is wrong with CC and how to fix it.
  • On one hand, you have the mapmakers and the foundry mods, who say that what we need to sustain a vibrant CC is upgraded XML to make more complex and innovative maps. As noted, the foundry had a strike recently because they felt very strongly about that issue. On the other hand, you have Changsha's recent essay about "the real reason CC is declining" which argues that complex maps are the reason for CC's decline and we need to get back to basics. Lot of people posted supportive comments in that thread, which reveals a huge watershed of people sick of being ambushed with Byzantine maps and settings that require full-time specialization to be good at and are guaranteed to defeat any genuinely casual player.
    So, which side would you have the mods demand: more complexity or less complexity?

  • On one hand, you have a steady stream of people whining that the reason for CC's downfall is "excessive moderation" and "the loss of Flame Wars" and other such things. On the other hand, you have fairly regular input from people who are sick of all the filth and profanity and ask for more moderation. One mod actually did go on strike not too long ago to try to force the issue and get stricter rules in place for foul language. He didn't succeed, but do you think he should have?
    Which side would you have the mods strike in support of: more profanity or less profanity?

  • One one hand, you frequently see suggestions that CC should invest more in advertising. On the other hand, anyone who has been in business knows that the effectiveness of advertising is a hit-and-miss affair, and while it can sometimes pay off, on other occasions it can bleed you dry and accomplish nothing.
    So what would you have the mods demand: that CC's financial reserves should be put on the Pass line in the crap shoot of advertising, or should be carefully shepherded?

  • On one hand, a lot of people demand more action regarding the perceived dominance of the scoreboard by freestyle farmers. While there might still be some things we can do to curtail a few specific forms of farming, the bottom line is that there will never be a real resolution without hurting the practise of freestyle itself. Some people would like to see freestyle abolished outright, some would like to see it banished to a separate scoreboard, some would like a cap on the points you can earn through it. On the other hand, many of the freestylers are among CC's oldest and most loyal members. I'm not sure exactly how many there are, but it's a risky business to make changes in favour of a new crowd at the expense of the old crowd that has been paying for years.
    So, where do you think the mods should line up: for freestylers, or against them?

These are a few of the things that divide public opinion on CC. I could find you more examples, but these suffice to illustrate the point. For every person who says "We need more X!" there is another person saying "We need to get rid of X and have more Y!"

"The mods" are not some unique species bred in captivity and selected for unique characteristics. Except perhaps for having slightly more than average willingness to volunteer for stuff, we are otherwise just a reasonably random sample of CC's membership. We come down on both sides of every issue just as the membership in general comes down on both sides of every issue.

This was illustrated quite recently (during your hiatus) when people attempted to revive the issue of reforming the scoreboard. Almost everyone agrees the scoreboard should be reformed (even there, it's "almost everyone" and definitely not an unqualified "everyone") but that's about as far as the consensus goes. There are at least five different major suggestions of how to reform the scoreboard, and minor variations on each, and none of them can command the support of anything resembling a majority.

Anyway, let's carry on.

2. Forcing lack to do more may not accomplish anything.
Okay, so maybe there is one thing you could try to build a consensus around: the basic idea that lack doesn't do enough to improve the site. You will never get a consensus about what changes he should make, but you can get a consensus, however useless it might be, that he should be doing more of an unspecified "something."

Would this make a difference? Let's consider the evidence.

Since I joined CC, the suggestion/demand I've seen most often is "Why can't we play Battle Royales all the time, not just during the Anniversaries?" And recently, lack made that change. All premium members can now join a Battle Royale every month. Did that do anything so silence the endless clamour of "lack never does anything!" or "the site never changes!"? Not really. Maybe for two or three days there was a flurry of people thanking or congratulating lack, but soon enough the old cacaphony returned. "Lack never does anything to improve the site" was being chanted in unison less than a week after he implemented the single most frequently demanded change on the site!

The second most common demand was one-minute Speed turns. Again, that was something lack implemented in his 2011 Speed Game Revamp, along with 2-minute turns, the turn-warning buzzer, and other improvements that speed players had been asking for. Did that silence the clamor? Again, absolutely not. A little extra interest in Speed games for a few days, and in less than a week the old mantras were being chanted again. "Nothing every changes" "Lack does nothing but sit on his thumbs" and of course "We haven't seen an update in years." I shit you not -- within three or four days after the Speed Game Revamp I saw someone claim that he hadn't seen a single improvement on CC in "years."

Cognitive Dissonance is a frightening thing. People who spend all their time chanting "nothing ever changes" cannot be moved from their position by showing them change. All they will do is trivialize and belittle the changes in order to persuade themselves that they were still right all along.

Let me just try to review the changes I've seen in the time (less than two years) that I've been here. In no particular order:
  • Speed Game Revamp
  • Battle Royales
  • Trench Warfare
  • The new Tournament-Finder drop-down
  • Mass Wall Clean and other functional improvements to the wall
  • integral clickies
  • Dice Stats
  • Medal Stats
  • Round Limits (What a huge improvement that was -- a way for people to eliminate the possibility of stalemates if they chose)
  • various server and database upgrades to reduce lag
  • various new medals and minor improvements

So, I've been here 23 months and I can list 11 significant changes. There's probably some that I missed, but any day of the week I can find another post in the forums saying "nothing ever changes" or "lack doesn't give a shit" or some other version of the popular mantra. So, if one change every second month has absolutely no effect on the critics, do you think one change every month would? How about one change every week? What do you think, maybe we should pressure lack to make one change every day, so nobody has any idea what all the different game settings are, or where anything is?

I mean, if you give your wife 11 bouquets and she's still screaming, "you never buy me flowers!" do you really think that bringing her a 12th bunch will fix the situation?

Okay, let's move on.

3. If your primary plan fails, your fallback position is disastrous.
Let's see:
Funkyterrance wrote:Worst case scenario he sells the site and someone who actually cares takes the helm.

Are you really that naive? Please tell me you were just trolling, and really aren't that naive.

First off, when games come on the market, they are not bought by white knights who selflessly seek to improve them. Games are bought by predatory puppy mills like Electronic Arts and Ubisoft who are only interested in draining whatever profit can be derived before the well runs dry. The first thing a major company would do is lower the boom and put a time limit on free players so that they would get an introductory 60 days or something and then pay or f*ck off. Then they would increase the price for the rest of us, while littering the site with massive bandwidth-sucking ads. "Why not?" you ask, "if they're going to make improvements?" Because they won't make any improvements.

Major gaming companies are interested in hits. Games that have a minor cult following like this are just cash cows to be milked in order to produce new hits. No executive at any major gaming company would authorize five minutes of programmer time to be spent on something like this. Well, except maybe to close a loophole through which someone might get something for free.

"Okay," you retort, "let's not sell it on the open market then. Let's sell it secretly to someone who is prepared to love it." Well, there you run up against a couple problems. First, no one will ever love something as much as the original creator. As unmotivated as you might think lackattack is, you can be pretty sure that his replacement will be slightly less motivated.

Let's take a few minutes to look at the economics of the situation. Of course, nobody except lack really knows what the financial picture is, but I've spent quite a lot of time thinking about it and looking at stuff, and I have my own estimate. I figure CC grosses about $130,000 and has about $100,000 in costs, for a net of about $30,000 to lack.

Now, I will not spend even one minute trying to defend those numbers. I admit that they're mainly based on speculation and conjecture and that I could be way, way off. But just as thought experiment, pretend that I'm a clever guy who used to be involved in some business startups and that my estimate might be correct.

$30K is a barely adequate income at a Canadian cost of living. I'm a blue-collar guy who works seasonal and temporary jobs and has periods of unemployment in between, and even I make more than that. For a university educated computer programmer like lack it would be totally unacceptable to settle for that kind of income.

Can you imagine a guy with a wife and two young kids coming home and saying, "Honey, I could have had a job at Oracle making $150K, but I've decided to stay home and play with my pet project. We don't need more than $30K a year, do we?" So, either he has a day job somewhere or he has other websites not related to CC. Possibly both. Certainly he isn't going to make CC his full-time career.

Now, you propose to sell CC to some white knight who will make it his full time carreer. What can be the selling point? If you could wave a magic wand and quadruple the profit, it might be interesting to someone. But you can't. There are no guarantees in business. Someone might make a bunch of changes and quadruple the revenue, or they might make a bunch of changes and nothing happens. Or worse, they invest a whole lot of time and money and the revenues might continue to go down. You just don't know, and all you can offer this hypothetical white knight is what the profits are at present.

If he's even moderately proficient at programming, your hypothetical white knight can get a six-digit salary any day of the week at any established software house. Even if he's a really bad programmer, he can bullshit his way into a job paying $65K or so. And you want to entice him to take on a job that pays possibly half that much?

If you were to succeed in this hypothetical private sale of yours, you would either get just another lackattack who would work on this part-time in between more lucrative projects, or you would get a really atrocious programmer who would fill the place with bugs and make it unplayable in no time. (That's one thing I love about CC: compared to any other Internet game I've tried, there are so few crashes and bugs. This really is the most stable game I've ever played.)

So, to get back to your original question, "Why is this a bad idea?" I think I've answered it. (1)There is no consensus about what changes we should pressure lack to make, (2)making changes would not satisfy the ingrates who have self-brainwashed with the "nothing ever changes" mantra, and (3)if you did manage to depress lack to the point of giving up and selling the thing, it would get substantially worse and not better.
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Re: Mods On Strike?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:29 am

I'm really sorry If I scared you off Dukasaur, I hadn't considered that my posts were becoming depressing to anyone. Opinionated and abraisive maybe, but I really had no idea. I have been the object of more haters than usual as of late and perhaps its affecting the tone of my posts. This is not an excuse, its an explanation.

All I know, thanks to my haitus, is that I have come back to a different CC than I left. I have to admit that I think my haitus has given me a more vivid comparison between a year ago and now than the average player. I have referred to this phenomenon before as the "rip van winkle effect". The community seems to have shrunk and apathy grown. This notion I gained all by myself without any outside influence. Hencely, I tried to gain as much insight to the reasons by reading the appropriate threads and asking around. Having no other input until now, I was left to work with what I had to make as clear a picture as possible. I am not an apathetic person so my instinct was to try and think of a solution.

From what I understand CC's customer base is dropping and the fact is more or less undeniable. From your list of demands I of course have an opinion regarding all of them but they are not questions that are my responsibilty to answer, they are the site's owner's. There are ways to find out which changes would boost membership but the general consesus of those who are actually paying attention is that the site's owner isn't even looking into what the paying customers, present or future, actually want or need. This takes some effort and involvement that seems to be lacking(pardon the pun). I want, as I hope others want, the site to continue indefinitely. For those who think I have some ulterior motive, I don't know what that might be.

I'm going to have to take some more time to absorb your post which I really appreciate you drawing up. I just wanted to put something up to let you know that I read it and am overjoyed to see that someone is coming on this thread with something real to contribute, contrary to my own views or not. What I've written so far is essentially a response to up to point #3 but this is not to say that I may clarify my thoughts up until that point later. The whole purpose of the thread is to openly discuss a potential solution to a problem, not start a war.

As for the one mod who went on strike, I don't know the circumstances but its pretty hard for one person to fight the power as it were. A strike by nature is a unification of a group in protest towards a goal.
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby jefjef on Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:06 am

swimmerdude99 wrote:
jefjef wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
#1_stunna wrote:all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.

Then don't read them?


all your posts drive me fucking ape shit.

I forgot why you were foed... but I think its because either you stopped posting alot or I stopped reading forums as much.


WAY TO RUIN A FUN-LOVING THREAD IN ONE POST
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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drunkmonkey wrote:I'm filing a C&A report right now. Its nice because they have a drop-down for "jefjef".
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Re: Mod Strike?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:32 am

jefjef wrote:
WAY TO RUIN A FUN-LOVING THREAD IN ONE POST


You said it, jefjef. =D>
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Re: Mods On Strike?

Postby Johnny Rockets on Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:17 am

Wow, Dukasaur! =D>

What an excellent summary of the situation.
Thank you for putting that concise breakdown of the C.C. environment together!

You brought up quite a few points, mainly on improvements and population consensus that really hit the nail on the head, and I think that in general the membership should try to look at things from other than their own perspective to temper their opinions on the changes/ non changes that happen here.

Cognitive Dissonance. It runs rampant here.

One potential partial solution to help reducing it perhaps is for Lack to resurface from time to time to give a "State of the Union" post, or a twice a year interview in the C.C. Newsletter to show the troops on the ground that the "Man" is still around, still working hard, and still dedicated to keeping the site healthy and evolving, and could share his vision on where and what he wants this place to be in the long and short term.

I think that because he is so much behind the scenes, there is a perspective that he is absent, does not care any more, and has left control of the site to others and it's being run into the ground due to his apathy.

I do not think that this is true in any way, but there is a mob here that tends to lean towards that mentality, and without the figurehead of leadership it's hard to quell.

Do you think this would be a helpful exercise?

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Re: Mods On Strike?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:47 pm

Johnny Rockets wrote:Wow, Dukasaur! =D>

What an excellent summary of the situation.
Thank you for putting that concise breakdown of the C.C. environment together!

You brought up quite a few points, mainly on improvements and population consensus that really hit the nail on the head, and I think that in general the membership should try to look at things from other than their own perspective to temper their opinions on the changes/ non changes that happen here.

Cognitive Dissonance. It runs rampant here.

One potential partial solution to help reducing it perhaps is for Lack to resurface from time to time to give a "State of the Union" post, or a twice a year interview in the C.C. Newsletter to show the troops on the ground that the "Man" is still around, still working hard, and still dedicated to keeping the site healthy and evolving, and could share his vision on where and what he wants this place to be in the long and short term.

I think that because he is so much behind the scenes, there is a perspective that he is absent, does not care any more, and has left control of the site to others and it's being run into the ground due to his apathy.

I do not think that this is true in any way, but there is a mob here that tends to lean towards that mentality, and without the figurehead of leadership it's hard to quell.

Johnny Rockets


Though I detect a bit of deliberate excess in Johny Rockets's applause, I agree that Dukasaur's post was very informative and helpful.
The problem is that if lack is the one ultimately in charge and is so much "behind the scenes" as Johnny puts it, what are we, the "mob", meant to think? We can only go by what we see/hear, can we not? It's the responsibility of the owner of a site like this to communicate with his customers on a regular basis, else they will naturally begin to view him/her as apathetic. There is a cause/effect relationship between absentee behavior and distention. While JR seems to have absolute faith in lackattack's sincere regard for his paying customers, some of the members here require actual evidence.
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