Illegal

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Should someone be declared illegal before a trial?

Yes, absolutely
3
17%
Yes, in certain cases.
2
11%
I'm not sure
1
6%
No, but in some cases trials aren't necessary
2
11%
No- I presume innocence before the outcome
4
22%
Kittens have a right to due cuteness
6
33%
 
Total votes : 18

Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:49 pm

Kind of a test of how far you believe in due process this one.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Woodruff on Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:50 pm

Symmetry wrote:Kind of a test of how far you believe in due process this one.


I don't understand the question. Are you talking about an illegal immigrant? Are you speaking of a particular case?
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:56 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Kind of a test of how far you believe in due process this one.


I don't understand the question. Are you talking about an illegal immigrant? Are you speaking of a particular case?


More of a hypothetical. Could an immigrant be presumed illegal under the law without due process, which assumes innocence?
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Re: Illegal

Postby Woodruff on Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:57 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Kind of a test of how far you believe in due process this one.


I don't understand the question. Are you talking about an illegal immigrant? Are you speaking of a particular case?


More of a hypothetical. Could an immigrant be presumed illegal under the law without due process, which assumes innocence.


I think in some cases, it's possible to do so. However, if there is any question at all, then there should be some sort of due process. I'm not sure a trial is specifically necessary, but something certainly.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:05 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Kind of a test of how far you believe in due process this one.


I don't understand the question. Are you talking about an illegal immigrant? Are you speaking of a particular case?


More of a hypothetical. Could an immigrant be presumed illegal under the law without due process, which assumes innocence.


I think in some cases, it's possible to do so. However, if there is any question at all, then there should be some sort of due process. I'm not sure a trial is specifically necessary, but something certainly.


I'm not sure exactly how the law works in the US on this, but my guess would be that before saying a person has done something illegal, there would have to be due process.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Nobunaga on Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:08 pm

... Interesting.

... Could a person be declared "under the influence", intoxicated without due process?

... Of course there is a process - a breathalyzer / blood test.

... What's the process on suspected illegals?

...
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Re: Illegal

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:10 pm

I think this illegal alien thread should be merged with Symmetry's other illegal alien thread.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:12 pm

Nobunaga wrote:... Interesting.

... Could a person be declared "under the influence", intoxicated without due process?

... Of course there is a process - a breathalyzer / blood test.

... What's the process on suspected illegals?

...


In the UK? There's the same tests for intoxication, but pretty much only if you're driving.

Suspected illegal drivers have to pass them, then, if they fail, go to court.

Courts being the basis of who is or isn't illegal.
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Re: Illegal

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:31 am

What is "proof of citizenship"?
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:17 am

In a criminal case, obviously you are innocent until proven guilty.

Being an "illegal alien" is not the same as committing a criminal act.

You are either a legal alien (legal resident) or you aren't... there's really no "gray area" here.

Should the law have to "prove" someone is illegal aline before deporting them... yes to an extent.
The prove is the lack of documentation... so onus fails on the individual.

If border patrol catches someone crossing a border... not through a normal check-point or crossing... then they should simply turn them back. There's no reason for due process in a case like this. It's not the same as a criminal act, even though we use similar terms. Equating the two is illogical.
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Re: Illegal

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:48 am

jimboston wrote:In a criminal case, obviously you are innocent until proven guilty.

Being an "illegal alien" is not the same as committing a criminal act.

You are either a legal alien (legal resident) or you aren't... there's really no "gray area" here.

Should the law have to "prove" someone is illegal aline before deporting them... yes to an extent.
The prove is the lack of documentation... so onus fails on the individual.

If border patrol catches someone crossing a border... not through a normal check-point or crossing... then they should simply turn them back. There's no reason for due process in a case like this. It's not the same as a criminal act, even though we use similar terms. Equating the two is illogical.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to do most things in the USA without having much documentation of any kind at all? Go to school, get a job, rent an apartment, buy a car, etc. Isn't it the case that there's no requirement in the USA to have any ID of any kind? We've already learned that birth certificates are sketchy at best and even they can get lost or never get issued in the first place.

As I understand things, it's possible to be born in the USA, to parents who're both US citizens, and have absolutely no documentation to prove this.

If I'm correct about this, wouldn't that mean that "lack of documentation" being the criterion for determining whether someone is a so-called "illegal immigrant" could make actual US citizens appear to be illegal immigrants?
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Re: Illegal

Postby 72o on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:11 am

MeDeFe wrote:
jimboston wrote:In a criminal case, obviously you are innocent until proven guilty.

Being an "illegal alien" is not the same as committing a criminal act.

You are either a legal alien (legal resident) or you aren't... there's really no "gray area" here.

Should the law have to "prove" someone is illegal aline before deporting them... yes to an extent.
The prove is the lack of documentation... so onus fails on the individual.

If border patrol catches someone crossing a border... not through a normal check-point or crossing... then they should simply turn them back. There's no reason for due process in a case like this. It's not the same as a criminal act, even though we use similar terms. Equating the two is illogical.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to do most things in the USA without having much documentation of any kind at all? Go to school, get a job, rent an apartment, buy a car, etc. Isn't it the case that there's no requirement in the USA to have any ID of any kind? We've already learned that birth certificates are sketchy at best and even they can get lost or never get issued in the first place.

As I understand things, it's possible to be born in the USA, to parents who're both US citizens, and have absolutely no documentation to prove this.

If I'm correct about this, wouldn't that mean that "lack of documentation" being the criterion for determining whether someone is a so-called "illegal immigrant" could make actual US citizens appear to be illegal immigrants?


It is also possible to drive a car without a license or insurance. That does not make it acceptable. Anyone giving birth to a child in this country should take the necessary steps to get documentation for their child. If the weirdos who want to live "off the grid" don't want documentation for their child, so be it. Let their child get deported.
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Re: Illegal

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:11 am

MeDeFe wrote:
jimboston wrote:In a criminal case, obviously you are innocent until proven guilty.

Being an "illegal alien" is not the same as committing a criminal act.

You are either a legal alien (legal resident) or you aren't... there's really no "gray area" here.

Should the law have to "prove" someone is illegal aline before deporting them... yes to an extent.
The prove is the lack of documentation... so onus fails on the individual.

If border patrol catches someone crossing a border... not through a normal check-point or crossing... then they should simply turn them back. There's no reason for due process in a case like this. It's not the same as a criminal act, even though we use similar terms. Equating the two is illogical.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to do most things in the USA without having much documentation of any kind at all? Go to school, get a job, rent an apartment, buy a car, etc. Isn't it the case that there's no requirement in the USA to have any ID of any kind? We've already learned that birth certificates are sketchy at best and even they can get lost or never get issued in the first place.

As I understand things, it's possible to be born in the USA, to parents who're both US citizens, and have absolutely no documentation to prove this.

If I'm correct about this, wouldn't that mean that "lack of documentation" being the criterion for determining whether someone is a so-called "illegal immigrant" could make actual US citizens appear to be illegal immigrants?


Sure, you can do all that as long as you have false papers or know how to play the game properly (illegal immigrant). Of course, this limits your range of jobs, apartments, car dealerships, etc. I'm not sure if you're required by law to always carry a proper ID on you, but it's good idea to have one anyway. You know, to avoid misunderstandings...

Your 2nd paragraph is usually the case for people who are 90+ years old.

3rd, requiring proof of citizenship does have its unintended consequences:

One study published last year looking at cases in which deported Americans have later been able to prove they're US
citizens contends that about 1 percent of those detained and deported in any given year are, in fact, Americans. That's about 20,000 people since 2003, it concludes.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0107/ ... y-banished
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Re: Illegal

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:14 am

72o wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:As I understand things, it's possible to be born in the USA, to parents who're both US citizens, and have absolutely no documentation to prove this.

If I'm correct about this, wouldn't that mean that "lack of documentation" being the criterion for determining whether someone is a so-called "illegal immigrant" could make actual US citizens appear to be illegal immigrants?


It is also possible to drive a car without a license or insurance. That does not make it acceptable. Anyone giving birth to a child in this country should take the necessary steps to get documentation for their child. If the weirdos who want to live "off the grid" don't want documentation for their child, so be it. Let their child get deported.


Where exactly do you recommend they be deported TO?
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Re: Illegal

Postby fadedpsychosis on Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:26 pm

Woodruff wrote:
72o wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:As I understand things, it's possible to be born in the USA, to parents who're both US citizens, and have absolutely no documentation to prove this.

If I'm correct about this, wouldn't that mean that "lack of documentation" being the criterion for determining whether someone is a so-called "illegal immigrant" could make actual US citizens appear to be illegal immigrants?


It is also possible to drive a car without a license or insurance. That does not make it acceptable. Anyone giving birth to a child in this country should take the necessary steps to get documentation for their child. If the weirdos who want to live "off the grid" don't want documentation for their child, so be it. Let their child get deported.


Where exactly do you recommend they be deported TO?

hell, deport me to denmark... nicest place I've ever been, even if a tad expensive
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