THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Symmetry on Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:03 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Obama's plan was to take us back to Reagan tax rates, which worked, rather than Bush tax rates, which led us into economic decline. And if you want to scream at that because it will cost "the rich" more money, take a better look at Romney's plans; he won't directly increase the tax rate, he'll just reduce or eliminate the deductions for your house, your medical care, your childcare expenses... all those things that help the little guy, including the small business owner, stay just a little above drowning.


For claiming to be a conservative, you sure do parrot liberalism most of the time. Reagan's tax rates worked because it wasn't the tax rate: it was the massive tax CUT that provided those rates. Raising the rates from today's rate to the 1980s rate won't do anything to spur economic growth. And the idea that we had economic decline after Bush's tax cuts is a complete falsehood that ignored everything that happened prior to the summer of 2008. We had over 4 years of low unemployment and continually-expanding revenues to the federal government after the two phases of tax cuts were passed. Furthermore, the collapse in 2008 had absolutely nothing to do with tax rates. It was a banking and housing bubble bursting open, neither of which were tied to tax rates. Obama's answer was to print tons of money to use as governmental stimulus, which has given us the past 3.5 years of economic stagflation.


Sources?


The tax rates for the Reagan years and the current tax rates are both matters of public record. The unemployment numbers and the governmental revenues during the Bush presidency are also public records. Go look them up.


Sweetie, post them if they're part of your point. I know your style is to come in and say something obnoxious without providing evidence, and then sod off, but this is getting silly.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:46 am

Night Strike wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Obama's plan was to take us back to Reagan tax rates, which worked, rather than Bush tax rates, which led us into economic decline. And if you want to scream at that because it will cost "the rich" more money, take a better look at Romney's plans; he won't directly increase the tax rate, he'll just reduce or eliminate the deductions for your house, your medical care, your childcare expenses... all those things that help the little guy, including the small business owner, stay just a little above drowning.


For claiming to be a conservative, you sure do parrot liberalism most of the time. Reagan's tax rates worked because it wasn't the tax rate: it was the massive tax CUT that provided those rates. Raising the rates from today's rate to the 1980s rate won't do anything to spur economic growth. And the idea that we had economic decline after Bush's tax cuts is a complete falsehood that ignored everything that happened prior to the summer of 2008. We had over 4 years of low unemployment and continually-expanding revenues to the federal government after the two phases of tax cuts were passed. Furthermore, the collapse in 2008 had absolutely nothing to do with tax rates. It was a banking and housing bubble bursting open, neither of which were tied to tax rates. Obama's answer was to print tons of money to use as governmental stimulus, which has given us the past 3.5 years of economic stagflation.


So basically your stance is, no matter how low the taxes go on those who can afford it, the businesses won't hire Americans unless they get yet ANOTHER tax reduction.

My "conservatism" ends where logic begins, Night Strike. I won't play blind man's bluff like so many "Republicans" today do, just because I detest some liberal ideas; not when "my party" is being even more despicable than my worst liberal nightmares.

The banking bubble was allowed to burst because BUSH removed some regulations, and removed some oversight that forced appropriate ethics and legalities. The repackaging of debt obligations was legal, but someone was still supposed to hold back sufficient funds to back those obligations, and regulations and overseers had been assigned to ensure that occured. When BUSH removed those watchdogs, companies that were doing the repackaging and selling Collateralized Debt Obligations, started to conveniently forget to hold back funds to cover the debts. Furthermore, they increased the risks by packaging many less secure loans with a few more secure loans, and calling them the lesser risk rather than admitting these packages had more risk than they were admitting.

As you said to someone else, these facts are all out on the web, look them up.

Then, when folks who owed the monies lost their jobs under Bush because plants closed in America to "expand" to various overseas locations (which Bush did nothing about and in fact, even backed legislation that made those moves more profitable for those once-American companies) the shady stack of cards BUSH allowed to build, collapsed.

Additionally, printing a bunch of money and making a stimulus was Bush's idea, only where he put the money didn't stimulate at all. So, Obama gets blamed for printing a little more money for a second stimulus that worked a little but not quite enough - or not quite enough yet.

Again, facts, look them up, Night Strike, rather than parrot Rush Limbaugh's distortions of the truth.

Finally, check your economics. It takes time for a financial cause to achieve effect; there's years of lag - it used to be 8-10 years, although that's lessened a little. Basically, Bush's policies in 2004 and 2005 caused what occurred in 2008 and 2009, and what Obama did in 2008 are finally starting to achieve some results in 2012.

Obama kept us from being totally snowed under the avalanche Bush's policies caused; it's not his fault that time takes time, and reverting back to the very policies that caused the avalanche would finalize our country's economic ruin.

Also remember: when Reagan cut the tax rates, they were 70%. Then he realized he cut them too low for our nation's wellbeing, and had to adjust and raise them back up again.

Then Bush came along and cut them back down, despite Ronald had already realized, "too much cut is not a good thing for our nation after all."

So. Obama wanting to put the rates back to Reagan rates DOES make sense.

If your fingernails are too long, sure, you should trim them; but if you cut them to the quick, you risk infection and loss of your fingernail. Similarly, Bush cut the taxes too low and left them there, causing an infection and risking loss of our nation as a strong financial entity.

BigBallinStalin wrote:And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?


Appropriate EXPANSION is one thing. Moving American jobs overseas to turn around and sell the now-foreign products back in America at prices Americans could afford when Americans were making the products, is a problem.

And if you do some more of your homework, you'd find that damned few of those poorer people in foreign nations get elevated living standards because they're being paid extremely low wages, commensurate to or only very slightly above their typical living standards. That's what makes it so "profitable" for American companies to move, you see. They get the best of all worlds, pay peanuts to the laborers but still sell high over in the U.S. for the very few who can still afford their product.

And then what happened is, companies realized less people in America could afford their product, so they laid off more workers, causing even less people to be able to afford their product, causing more layoffs.

Obama has done well trying to stop the avalanche, with zero help from Congress who continue to take their vaca's, get their salaries, get their ultra premium healthcare and can still rely on tremendous pensions PLUS Social Security. And, of course, the Ryan/Romney Social Security and Medicare plans don't dare to touch most of the Congressmen and Senators who are primarily above the golden age of 55 they keep spouting - as are almost all the baby boomers who lived beyond the planned-for time which caused THAT little problem.

I wish. I really wish. That I could still espouse Republican ideas. But, as a rational and critical thinking person, I cannot. They, the Republicans, broke some things, and their idea to "fix" it is to repeat the exact same actions that broke the things in the first place, NONE of which will help poorer Americans get back to work.

We can all agree that there are "some" Americans who thrive on living off the system when they don't have to. It's fraud, and should be addressed appropriately. But lumping everyone who's now unemployed because of faulty Republican actions into that same category is wrong. Doing more of what really caused the problem, is wrong. Blaming Obama because his fix isn't working FAST enough, is wrong.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby notyou2 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:11 am

Well stated Stahr.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:20 am

stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?


Appropriate EXPANSION is one thing. Moving American jobs overseas to turn around and sell the now-foreign products back in America at prices Americans could afford when Americans were making the products, is a problem.


False. The prices are different, thus the gains of trade will differ. You shouldn't ignore that by saying "at prices Americans could afford."


stahrgazer wrote:And if you do some more of your homework, you'd find that damned few of those poorer people in foreign nations get elevated living standards because they're being paid extremely low wages, commensurate to or only very slightly above their typical living standards. That's what makes it so "profitable" for American companies to move, you see. They get the best of all worlds, pay peanuts to the laborers but still sell high over in the U.S. for the very few who can still afford their product.


Their wages in manufacturing are higher than subsistence agriculture--it doesn't make sense to call wage X "extremely low" without using a meaningful benchmark. The middle class of many developing countries is rising, and the poorest of the poor are becoming less and less over the decades. This is mainly due to international trade (and less restrictions trade), which is something you're obviously against.


stahrgazer wrote:And then what happened is, companies realized less people in America could afford their product, so they laid off more workers, causing even less people to be able to afford their product, causing more layoffs.


Is this your business cycle theory?


stahrgazer wrote:Obama has done well trying to stop the avalanche, with zero help from Congress who continue to take their vaca's, get their salaries, get their ultra premium healthcare and can still rely on tremendous pensions PLUS Social Security. And, of course, the Ryan/Romney Social Security and Medicare plans don't dare to touch most of the Congressmen and Senators who are primarily above the golden age of 55 they keep spouting - as are almost all the baby boomers who lived beyond the planned-for time which caused THAT little problem.

I wish. I really wish. That I could still espouse Republican ideas. But, as a rational and critical thinking person, I cannot. They, the Republicans, broke some things, and their idea to "fix" it is to repeat the exact same actions that broke the things in the first place, NONE of which will help poorer Americans get back to work.

We can all agree that there are "some" Americans who thrive on living off the system when they don't have to. It's fraud, and should be addressed appropriately. But lumping everyone who's now unemployed because of faulty Republican actions into that same category is wrong. Doing more of what really caused the problem, is wrong. Blaming Obama because his fix isn't working FAST enough, is wrong.


This is irrelevant.

We were discussing foreign labor and international trade; not "president X did A, B, and C, even though he's not really responsible for A, B, and C."
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Night Strike on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:04 pm

The government forced banks to write 1 sub-prime loan for every 9 good loans instead of what had previously been 1 sub-prime loan for every 99 good loans. Bush warned Congress in 2005 that Fannie Mae and other secondary loan markets had to be reformed to avoid a collapse, but Barney Frank and his cohorts refused to listen and ignored the problem. It has been government involvement in the system that caused all of this mess, not deregulation.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:14 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?


Appropriate EXPANSION is one thing. Moving American jobs overseas to turn around and sell the now-foreign products back in America at prices Americans could afford when Americans were making the products, is a problem.


False. The prices are different, thus the gains of trade will differ. You shouldn't ignore that by saying "at prices Americans could afford."


Stalin, explain how Nike-made-overseas pricing being just about the same as made-in-American New Balance pricing, and tell me again the prices are different.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:22 pm

Night Strike wrote:The government forced banks to write 1 sub-prime loan for every 9 good loans instead of what had previously been 1 sub-prime loan for every 99 good loans. Bush warned Congress in 2005 that Fannie Mae and other secondary loan markets had to be reformed to avoid a collapse, but Barney Frank and his cohorts refused to listen and ignored the problem. It has been government involvement in the system that caused all of this mess, not deregulation.


No. Unethical business tactics that were allowed to flourish, is what caused this. The forced loans had still required that the banks and lenders keep back enough funds to cover any losses. Watchdogs (cats) were in place to ensure that happened.

Bush took away the watchdogs (cats). "When the cat's away the mice will play," works well here. Well, Bush took away the cats and the big-business wealthy mice did play.

and the neo-Republican answer to this is to open the gates wider to their play, let them hoard even more of their cheese to play with, and take away more of the watchcats.

Neo-Republicans need to learn what Reagan already knew and what Obama knows: Capitalism is good, but only when the companies they're protecting keep up a good sense of patriotic and moral ethics, rather than worship only the dollar signs. But when business leaders stop worrying about patriotism, it's time for a country to fight back a little bit.

Seriously, nightstrike, do your research. Unethical repackaging/selling of higher risk loans into a lower-risk category because the cats weren't watching anymore, resulted in illegal failure to back those loans with sufficient capital "just in case" someone lost his/her job and couldn't afford to repay the loans. If Bush had kept the watchcats in place, the watchcats could've ensured that those unethical practices didn't result in the illegal failure to back high-risk loans with enough money.

And the house of cards that lacks of patriotism, ethics, and watchcats, collapsed and pretty much demolished this country and parts of the world.

So the answer is NOT to trust the same unpatriotic, unethical, and illegal businessleaders. The wealthy are above the floodwaters enough to survive Romney's push to let similar happen again; most of the populations are not.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:43 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?


Appropriate EXPANSION is one thing. Moving American jobs overseas to turn around and sell the now-foreign products back in America at prices Americans could afford when Americans were making the products, is a problem.


False. The prices are different, thus the gains of trade will differ. You shouldn't ignore that by saying "at prices Americans could afford."


Stalin, explain how Nike-made-overseas pricing being just about the same as made-in-American New Balance pricing, and tell me again the prices are different.


There may be exceptions, but for the most part, goods produced in foreign countries with cheap labor (among other factors) usually can sell such goods at lower prices.

If you buy knockoff Nikes from the very same Chinese factory that makes the real Nikes, then you'd realize that lower price. So, in this particular case, the blame falls on the patent/copyright/trademark system for keeping prices high.

Also, there's many issues involving antitrust laws and WTO nonsense. For example, if Nike outsources much of its production process, and then sells Nikes for cheap in US markets, it may be hit with price dumping. If this factors into their decision-making, then US antitrust law is to blame for keeping the prices higher than they would be.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:44 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The government forced banks to write 1 sub-prime loan for every 9 good loans instead of what had previously been 1 sub-prime loan for every 99 good loans. Bush warned Congress in 2005 that Fannie Mae and other secondary loan markets had to be reformed to avoid a collapse, but Barney Frank and his cohorts refused to listen and ignored the problem. It has been government involvement in the system that caused all of this mess, not deregulation.


No. Unethical business tactics that were allowed to flourish, is what caused this. The forced loans had still required that the banks and lenders keep back enough funds to cover any losses. Watchdogs (cats) were in place to ensure that happened.

Bush took away the watchdogs (cats). "When the cat's away the mice will play," works well here. Well, Bush took away the cats and the big-business wealthy mice did play.

and the neo-Republican answer to this is to open the gates wider to their play, let them hoard even more of their cheese to play with, and take away more of the watchcats.

Neo-Republicans need to learn what Reagan already knew and what Obama knows: Capitalism is good, but only when the companies they're protecting keep up a good sense of patriotic and moral ethics, rather than worship only the dollar signs. But when business leaders stop worrying about patriotism, it's time for a country to fight back a little bit.

Seriously, nightstrike, do your research. Unethical repackaging/selling of higher risk loans into a lower-risk category because the cats weren't watching anymore, resulted in illegal failure to back those loans with sufficient capital "just in case" someone lost his/her job and couldn't afford to repay the loans. If Bush had kept the watchcats in place, the watchcats could've ensured that those unethical practices didn't result in the illegal failure to back high-risk loans with enough money.

And the house of cards that lacks of patriotism, ethics, and watchcats, collapsed and pretty much demolished this country and parts of the world.

So the answer is NOT to trust the same unpatriotic, unethical, and illegal businessleaders. The wealthy are above the floodwaters enough to survive Romney's push to let similar happen again; most of the populations are not.



Why did banks suddenly grant mortgages to so many riskier borrowers?
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:45 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:And what of the poorer people in foreign nations?


Appropriate EXPANSION is one thing. Moving American jobs overseas to turn around and sell the now-foreign products back in America at prices Americans could afford when Americans were making the products, is a problem.


False. The prices are different, thus the gains of trade will differ. You shouldn't ignore that by saying "at prices Americans could afford."


Stalin, explain how Nike-made-overseas pricing being just about the same as made-in-American New Balance pricing, and tell me again the prices are different.


Nike makes more money.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:04 pm

stahrgazer wrote:The banking bubble was allowed to burst because BUSH removed some regulations, and removed some oversight that forced appropriate ethics and legalities. The repackaging of debt obligations was legal, but someone was still supposed to hold back sufficient funds to back those obligations, and regulations and overseers had been assigned to ensure that occured. When BUSH removed those watchdogs, companies that were doing the repackaging and selling Collateralized Debt Obligations, started to conveniently forget to hold back funds to cover the debts. Furthermore, they increased the risks by packaging many less secure loans with a few more secure loans, and calling them the lesser risk rather than admitting these packages had more risk than they were admitting.

As you said to someone else, these facts are all out on the web, look them up.

Then, when folks who owed the monies lost their jobs under Bush because plants closed in America to "expand" to various overseas locations (which Bush did nothing about and in fact, even backed legislation that made those moves more profitable for those once-American companies) the shady stack of cards BUSH allowed to build, collapsed.

Additionally, printing a bunch of money and making a stimulus was Bush's idea, only where he put the money didn't stimulate at all. So, Obama gets blamed for printing a little more money for a second stimulus that worked a little but not quite enough - or not quite enough yet.

Again, facts, look them up, Night Strike, rather than parrot Rush Limbaugh's distortions of the truth.

Finally, check your economics. It takes time for a financial cause to achieve effect; there's years of lag - it used to be 8-10 years, although that's lessened a little. Basically, Bush's policies in 2004 and 2005 caused what occurred in 2008 and 2009, and what Obama did in 2008 are finally starting to achieve some results in 2012.

Obama kept us from being totally snowed under the avalanche Bush's policies caused; it's not his fault that time takes time, and reverting back to the very policies that caused the avalanche would finalize our country's economic ruin.


I did some fact checking here, following stahr's advice to look things up.

There are approximately 140 financial institutions that failed in 2008/2009. The causes were attributed mainly to the poor economic climate and all bank failures involved a fall in capital which caused the banks to be unable to meet their financial obligations. So what caused the financial crisis? First was the collapse of the real estate market. When people defaulted on mortgage loans, banks begin to experience capital flow problems. As mortgage-backed securities fail, the economy goes down.

But let's look at the idea of bank deregulation and whether Bush is the only one at fault (Stahrgazer's opinion). Let's see who is to blame (all of this information is easily accessible on the internet):

(1) The Federal Reserve slashed interest rates after the dot-com bubble burst, which made credit cheap.
(2) Home buyers took advantage of easy credit to bid up the prices of homes excessively.
(3) Congress supported a mortgage tax deduction that gives consumers a tax incentive to buy more expensive homes.
(4) Real estate agents earned higher commissions from selling more expensive homes.
(5) The Clinton administration pushed for less stringent credit and down payment requirements for working and middle-class families.
(6) Mortgage brokers offered less-credit-worth buyers subprime, adjustable rate loans with low initial payments.
(7) Alan Greenspan near the peak of the housing bubble in 2004 encouraged Americans to take out adjustable rate mortgages.
(8) Wall Street firms paid little attention to the quality of the risky loans that they bundled into mortgage backed securities and isused those securities as collateral.
(9) The Bush administration failed to provide needed government oversight of the increasingly dicey mortgage-backed securities market (This is stahrgazer's only reason for the financial collapse).
(10) An obscure accounting rule called mark-to-market.
(11) Collective delusion that home prices would keep rising forever.

Let's talk about Bush's actions specifically since stahrgazer brought it up:

The deregulation law in question was sponsored by one Senator Phil Gramm. The law is called the Gramm-Leach-Blilely Act which was passed in 1999 and repealed portions of the Glass-Steagall Act (from the Depression which imposed a number of regulations on financial institutions). The bill passed the 362-57 with 155 Democrats voting for the bill. The Senate passed the bill 90-8, including a vote from Joe Biden (the current vice president serving under President Obama). The bill was signed into law by George Bush. Oh wait, no it wasn't. It was signed into law by President William Jeferson Clinton, a Democrat. Furthermore, economists on both sides of the spectrum indicated that the law probably made the crisis less severe than it might otherwise have been. For example, Robert Kuttner, a liberal economist, wrote that he blamed the financial deregulation of the 1970s and blamed the policies of the federal reserve under Alan Greenspan. For example, former Clinton Treasury official Brad DeLong praised Gramm-Leach-Bliley as having softened the crisis. And finally, for example, Bill Clinton who signed the law said that he has no regrets about signing it, going so far as to say "But I can't blame the Republicans."
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:35 pm

Well, I'm just glad we can all agree that the global financial crisis is America's fault.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:42 pm

thegreekdog wrote:(9) The Bush administration failed to provide needed government oversight of the increasingly dicey mortgage-backed securities market (This is stahrgazer's only reason for the financial collapse).


ABSOLUTELY NOT!

What I DID say is, the reason for the collapse was UNETHICAL BUSINESS PRACTICES that violated Federal requirements, and Bush took away the watchdogs that were supposed to watch.

The deregulation quote you're talking about isn't the area I spoke of.

Even with all the easy loans, the financial institutions were supposed to hold back sufficient capital to prevent the collapse of the system if someone failed to repay the loan. Watchdogs were in place post-Clinton, and Bush's administration decided to remove those watchdogs, relying on businessmen to do things right anyway.

A) Businessmen decided that "right" was whatever unethical practices resulted in their near-term profits. Unethical and against-still-existing-regulation practices such as repackaging those high-risk loans along with a couple lower-risk loans and calling the entire package low-risk, and conveniently forgetting to hold back sufficient capital in case someone failed to repay their loans. And this spread from lender to lender to lender, each buying up high risk loans, repackaging them and calling them lower risk than the most risky loans within the packages, and FAILED TO BACK THOSE OBLIGATIONS WITH SUFFICIENT CAPITAL.

B) Meanwhile, OTHER businessmen decided that "right" was whatever unpatriotic practices resulted in their near-term profits. Unpatriotic practices such as closing or reducing plants in the United States and opening them overseas where people work for peanuts and don't know diddly about healthcare and retirement benefits.

The results of B) is that people who got laid off could not afford to repay their loans. The results of the against-still-existing regulations that were no longer being watched to ensure they were upheld, is that the system kind of collapsed, bringing down some of the largest banks or investment firms, and nearly bringing down a lot more, all over the world. (Because A) spread from lender to lender to lender, so very few didn't grab a piece of that UNETHICAL gravy train of selling CDO packages calling them lower risk than the most risky loans within them, while practicing the still-against-federal-regulations failure to withhold sufficient capital "just in case.")

I didn't blame Bush for deregulating, I blamed Bush for removing the watchdogs; for trusting businessmen to do the right thing without being watched.

Businesses are NOT Patriots. Trusting businesses and business leaders to do the right thing without sufficient watchdogs and regulations in place has proved disastrously wrong. Romney's plan/Republicans' wish to release even more regulatory floodgates will continue to be wrong for our nation while unethical and unpatriotic businessmen are at the helms.

Meanwhile, we're left with the aftermath of the floods, and the only ones who have enough cash to see us through are "the rich," so yeah, I do believe they should pay a little more for a while.
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:00 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:(9) The Bush administration failed to provide needed government oversight of the increasingly dicey mortgage-backed securities market (This is stahrgazer's only reason for the financial collapse).


ABSOLUTELY NOT!

What I DID say is, the reason for the collapse was UNETHICAL BUSINESS PRACTICES that violated Federal requirements, and Bush took away the watchdogs that were supposed to watch.

The deregulation quote you're talking about isn't the area I spoke of.

Even with all the easy loans, the financial institutions were supposed to hold back sufficient capital to prevent the collapse of the system if someone failed to repay the loan. Watchdogs were in place post-Clinton, and Bush's administration decided to remove those watchdogs, relying on businessmen to do things right anyway.

A) Businessmen decided that "right" was whatever unethical practices resulted in their near-term profits. Unethical and against-still-existing-regulation practices such as repackaging those high-risk loans along with a couple lower-risk loans and calling the entire package low-risk, and conveniently forgetting to hold back sufficient capital in case someone failed to repay their loans. And this spread from lender to lender to lender, each buying up high risk loans, repackaging them and calling them lower risk than the most risky loans within the packages, and FAILED TO BACK THOSE OBLIGATIONS WITH SUFFICIENT CAPITAL.

B) Meanwhile, OTHER businessmen decided that "right" was whatever unpatriotic practices resulted in their near-term profits. Unpatriotic practices such as closing or reducing plants in the United States and opening them overseas where people work for peanuts and don't know diddly about healthcare and retirement benefits.

The results of B) is that people who got laid off could not afford to repay their loans. The results of the against-still-existing regulations that were no longer being watched to ensure they were upheld, is that the system kind of collapsed, bringing down some of the largest banks or investment firms, and nearly bringing down a lot more, all over the world. (Because A) spread from lender to lender to lender, so very few didn't grab a piece of that UNETHICAL gravy train of selling CDO packages calling them lower risk than the most risky loans within them, while practicing the still-against-federal-regulations failure to withhold sufficient capital "just in case.")

I didn't blame Bush for deregulating, I blamed Bush for removing the watchdogs; for trusting businessmen to do the right thing without being watched.

Businesses are NOT Patriots. Trusting businesses and business leaders to do the right thing without sufficient watchdogs and regulations in place has proved disastrously wrong. Romney's plan/Republicans' wish to release even more regulatory floodgates will continue to be wrong for our nation while unethical and unpatriotic businessmen are at the helms.

Meanwhile, we're left with the aftermath of the floods, and the only ones who have enough cash to see us through are "the rich," so yeah, I do believe they should pay a little more for a while.


I feel like you didn't read my post. The ability to package of high risk loans together was not a result of anything that President Bush did. The things the Wall Street firms did would not have been illegal if there were two million regulators. I'm not defending Bush, since he didn't make it better and helped get through the first bailout and supported the remaining bailouts, I'm simply questioning your insistence that President Bush is to blame (and the "unethical" Wall Streeters) to the point where you've made a number of vehement arguments in this thread.

I have some follow up questions:

- Do you give any regard to the other 10 reasons for the financial collapse? If so, why are you not more vehement about the politicians noted in those other reasons?
- How do you think the rich should pay more for a while? Should we raise tax rates? If so, which rates (individual, ordinary income, capital gain income, corporate)? Should we get rid of exemptions, deductions, or credits? If so, which? What plans proposed by Democrats, including President Obama, are most in line with your views?
- What new laws did the president sign that leads you to believe that he and Congress have solved any of the financial industry's problems?
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Re: THE GREAT DEBATE! WHY IT ONLY MATTERS TO REPUBLICANS!

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:04 pm

Repackaging the loans was UNETHICAL.

Doing it without backing them was ILLEGAL.

BUSH removed the watchdogs that were there to ensure the lenders did not do anything ILLEGAL while they were doing their UNETHICAL practices.

I believe that those who have the money to afford it, should pay a higher rate.

I agree with Obama's proposal that Republicans shot down a few years back, to increase the rate but then give business a tax break for every new job they created.

I do believe that capital gains tax rates should be increased. I realize they were lowered so they'd let the money trickle down by hiring, but they haven't BEEN hiring, so raise it back up - giving the break for those who are creating jobs. I also realize one argument is that the money used to make the money was already taxed. But if that's a valid argument, then I should not pay local, sales, or any other tax with my income because my income was already taxed.

Execs of a company used to make about 10x what the lowest employee made. Now they make 1000x what their lowest employee makes, and they do it in the name of "business" and "capitalism." Legal, sure. Ethical? Fair? Maybe not. The "1%" thing isn't exact, meaning, it's not necessarily a top 1% vs. a bottom 99% like the Occupy Wall Street movement says, but it's a trendy saying that has some merit.

Our nation wasn't founded on capitalism like some like to spout. Our nation was founded on the idea that a minority shouldn't control everything. We've gone a little too far in making Capitalism our God so that we're becoming just what our founding fathers fought against. Capitalism in its extreme begins to look Fascist, and I'll take Socialism over Fascism any day of the week, including Election Day, which is why I'm still leaning Obama over Romney.
Last edited by stahrgazer on Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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