Illegal

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Should someone be declared illegal before a trial?

Yes, absolutely
3
17%
Yes, in certain cases.
2
11%
I'm not sure
1
6%
No, but in some cases trials aren't necessary
2
11%
No- I presume innocence before the outcome
4
22%
Kittens have a right to due cuteness
6
33%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: Illegal

Postby Nobunaga on Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:55 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
So... what is "due process" to determine if a person is legally in this country?
... simple, you ask for documentation. If said person can't produce it after a reasonable amount of time then they are illegal.

I see, and what kind of documentation is acceptable?

See, a good many older Americans and even a few not so old don't have legal documentation, cannot get a passport, cannot run for election, and it seems before long may not be able to vote, despite having very much been born here.


... My dear mother is 74, confined to a wheelchair, and SOMEHOW, God only knows how, she managed to get an ID to vote in Illinois.

... If you want to vote, make a freaking effort. It's the least one can do for the privilege.

... (wait a minute... what thread was this again? :? )
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:27 pm

What do you mean by "presumed illegal?"

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.
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Re: Illegal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:33 pm

Nobunaga wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
So... what is "due process" to determine if a person is legally in this country?
... simple, you ask for documentation. If said person can't produce it after a reasonable amount of time then they are illegal.

I see, and what kind of documentation is acceptable?

See, a good many older Americans and even a few not so old don't have legal documentation, cannot get a passport, cannot run for election, and it seems before long may not be able to vote, despite having very much been born here.


... My dear mother is 74, confined to a wheelchair, and SOMEHOW, God only knows how, she managed to get an ID to vote in Illinois.
She had help
Nobunaga wrote:... If you want to vote, make a freaking effort. It's the least one can do for the privilege.

... (wait a minute... what thread was this again? :? )

Not that one... but the requirements for voter IDs are much less than the requirements for passports and other officially accepted documention of legal residency. Ironic, but true.

Or, put this another way.... how on Earth are you supposed to get a birth certificate when one was never issued? You may believe this doesn't happen, but it was common in past decades.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:18 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:No. It's very easy for authorities to verify that we are who we say we are. There's no reason to randomly stop people. .

You cannot possibly be THAT naive! :shock: :shock:[/quote]

I am NOT proposing to randomly stop people.

Does that happen... maybe.

I don't advocate that.

That said... if I am stopped by a cop and asked for ID, I say "Yes sir" and give the guy my license. It's not really that much of a hassle.
I think it's mostly a hassle for people who are illegal.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:20 pm

thegreekdog wrote:What do you mean by "presumed illegal?"

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.


Right.

Our esteemed OP however likely believes "due process" MUST mean a court case that lasts months or years.

My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:04 pm

jimboston wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:What do you mean by "presumed illegal?"

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.


Right.

Our esteemed OP however likely believes "due process" MUST mean a court case that lasts months or years.

My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.


Hmm, bit of a mixed bag this, due process does kind of mean a court.

I'm not sure why that would necessarily take months or years, but if you want to say someone has done something illegal, due process is kind of key to deciding that.
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Re: Illegal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:32 pm

jimboston wrote:
My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.

And you ignore evidence that this process to which you refer is very far from impeachable... in fact, the main reason we don't see more older Americans deported is simply that the focus is on younger latino looking individuals, not every American.

I agree that the standard for illegal immigrants is not the same as for murder... and that those "caught in the act" can be summarily deported, but your reference to how easy it is to get documents and how readily available they are to everyone is just wrong.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:27 pm

Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:What do you mean by "presumed illegal?"

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.


Right.

Our esteemed OP however likely believes "due process" MUST mean a court case that lasts months or years.

My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.


Hmm, bit of a mixed bag this, due process does kind of mean a court.

I'm not sure why that would necessarily take months or years, but if you want to say someone has done something illegal, due process is kind of key to deciding that.


What do you mean by "presumed illegal?" I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make or even where you are coming from with this.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:31 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:What do you mean by "presumed illegal?"

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.


Right.

Our esteemed OP however likely believes "due process" MUST mean a court case that lasts months or years.

My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.


Hmm, bit of a mixed bag this, due process does kind of mean a court.

I'm not sure why that would necessarily take months or years, but if you want to say someone has done something illegal, due process is kind of key to deciding that.


What do you mean by "presumed illegal?" I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make or even where you are coming from with this.


Simple principles- presumption of innocence should be the standard before due process rules a person as illegal anything.
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Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:09 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:What do you mean by "presumed illegal?"

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.


Right.

Our esteemed OP however likely believes "due process" MUST mean a court case that lasts months or years.

My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.


Hmm, bit of a mixed bag this, due process does kind of mean a court.

I'm not sure why that would necessarily take months or years, but if you want to say someone has done something illegal, due process is kind of key to deciding that.


What do you mean by "presumed illegal?" I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make or even where you are coming from with this.


Simple principles- presumption of innocence should be the standard before due process rules a person as illegal anything.


Okay, that's the process in the United States. So what's the point of this thread? Was there some news story I missed? Is there some critique I'm missing of the U.S. legal system as applied to illegal immigrants?
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Re: Illegal

Postby oss spy on Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:19 am

When the answer is clear? Yes, but there will still need to be a trial (i.e. a guard just watched the person cross the border and they don't speak nor understand English.)
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Re: Illegal

Postby Gillipig on Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:16 am

Did you think Anders Breivik was guilty before he was sentenced? Or did you believe he was innocent until proven guilty? "Proven guilty" is when the judge sentences him to be btw.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:37 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.

And you ignore evidence that this process to which you refer is very far from impeachable... in fact, the main reason we don't see more older Americans deported is simply that the focus is on younger latino looking individuals, not every American.

I agree that the standard for illegal immigrants is not the same as for murder... and that those "caught in the act" can be summarily deported, but your reference to how easy it is to get documents and how readily available they are to everyone is just wrong.


No process is unimpeachable.

If you have suggestions to improve the current process talk to your congressman.

If anything I think our system errs on the side of the illegal (presumed illegal) alien more often than not.

The Dept. of Customs and Immigration does NOT go around rounding people up randomly and shipping them to other countries. This ISN'T happening... please don't suggest it does. I don't understand the POINT of this thread... I don't think there is one.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Timminz on Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:46 pm

jimboston wrote:The Dept. of Customs and Immigration does NOT go around Boston rounding people up randomly and shipping them to other countries. This ISN'T happening in Boston... please don't suggest it does.


Them Canajuns is gettin all up in yer 'chusetts.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:18 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:What do you mean by "presumed illegal?"

At some point prior to an arrest, there is a belief by the arresting agent that the person he or she is arresting is an illegal immigrant. This alleged illegal immigrant is likely placed in holding. This occurs with any other person allegedly violating the law.

In any event, due process applies to immigrants, legal and illegal, so it's kind of a moot point.


Right.

Our esteemed OP however likely believes "due process" MUST mean a court case that lasts months or years.

My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.


Hmm, bit of a mixed bag this, due process does kind of mean a court.

I'm not sure why that would necessarily take months or years, but if you want to say someone has done something illegal, due process is kind of key to deciding that.


What do you mean by "presumed illegal?" I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make or even where you are coming from with this.


Simple principles- presumption of innocence should be the standard before due process rules a person as illegal anything.


Okay, that's the process in the United States. So what's the point of this thread? Was there some news story I missed? Is there some critique I'm missing of the U.S. legal system as applied to illegal immigrants?


Yeah, I guess a large part of the thread has come to be about the peculiar use of Americans to say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence pre-trial.

The thread is was it is I suppose.
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Re: Illegal

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:19 am

Nice try, TGD, but it wasn't worth the effort.
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Re: Illegal

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:58 am

jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
My point is that there is a process to verify the legal status of residency... and that process is NOt the same process we have (nor should it be) for criminal acts.

And you ignore evidence that this process to which you refer is very far from impeachable... in fact, the main reason we don't see more older Americans deported is simply that the focus is on younger latino looking individuals, not every American.

I agree that the standard for illegal immigrants is not the same as for murder... and that those "caught in the act" can be summarily deported, but your reference to how easy it is to get documents and how readily available they are to everyone is just wrong.


No process is unimpeachable.

If you have suggestions to improve the current process talk to your congressman.

If anything I think our system errs on the side of the illegal (presumed illegal) alien more often than not.

That's as it should be. Better a few guilty go free than innnocent people condemned... and what makes you think I DON'T talk to congressfolk... but they follow public opinion, even when public opinion is misinformed.. as you proved.

The point I was making was that you don't seem to believe there IS a problem with legal citizens having documents. For you to continue to hold the line that "everyone has documents".. and "they are not difficult to obtain" means you are intentionally ignorant.

jimboston wrote:The Dept. of Customs and Immigration does NOT go around rounding people up randomly and shipping them to other countries. This ISN'T happening... please don't suggest it does. I don't understand the POINT of this thread... I don't think there is one.

I don't believe I said they do. However, several states, including Arizona have enacted laws that would do just that. Most have been rules illegal by the courts, are not enforceable, but the laws still remain on the books.

Also, the issue above as border patrol agents, who are much more like your local sheriff, whereas the Customs agents are more like FBI.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:58 am

I seem to have made a few people angry by bringing this up. There are replies in thread for people who don't go along with the idea.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:52 am

Timminz wrote:
jimboston wrote:The Dept. of Customs and Immigration does NOT go around Boston rounding people up randomly and shipping them to other countries. This ISN'T happening... please don't suggest it does.


Them Canajuns is gettin all up in yer 'chusetts.


Please don't modify my posts. Thanks.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:58 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:blah, blah, blah, blah...


I never said you don't talk to your Representative. Though I'm guessing he/she doesn't listen to you either.

We are NOT "rounding up" people who "look Mexican"... it's not happening. Are people in some parts of the country (where illegal immigration is a more serious problem BTW)... are some people being wrongfully stopped? Yes. I am sure. Is it a hassle... yeah I guess for some. Does it mean these people are then wrongfully deported. NO. It doesn't happen.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:08 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:The point I was making was that you don't seem to believe there IS a problem with legal citizens having documents. For you to continue to hold the line that "everyone has documents".. and "they are not difficult to obtain" means you are intentionally ignorant.


Yep... "everyone" has them... or can get them without serious issues.

... yes I put "everyone" in quotes. Obviously there is some small fraction of the population that may have a hard time getting ID. Even if LIberals where right... and the percentage is higher than I believe... this WOULD NOT EFFECT legal immigrants. Legal immigrants BY DEFINITION have ID.

Then there's a difference between those who don't have ID and those who "can't get" ID. Let's say X percentage of legal residents (citizens... because we already excluded legal immigrants) don't have ID.

Of X.... only a small percent "can't get" ID.... let's call that Y.

Of Y... MOST of these could get ID if we created voter ID laws AND required States to provide ID's (not licenses... but generic picture ID's) for free.
So then we would be left with Z... the people who couldn't provide the documentation to get ID's.

This number Z would be VERY VERY small and we could find ways to accommodate these people too.

So yeah... having an ID shouldn't be a problem for a legal resident of this country.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:09 am

Symmetry wrote:I seem to have made a few people angry by bringing this up. There are replies in thread for people who don't go along with the idea.


What idea?

You don't seem to have one.
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Re: Illegal

Postby Timminz on Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:59 pm

jimboston wrote:
Timminz wrote:
jimboston wrote:The Dept. of Customs and Immigration does NOT go around Boston rounding people up randomly and shipping them to other countries. This ISN'T happening... please don't suggest it does.

Them Canajuns is gettin all up in yer 'chusetts.

Please don't modify my posts. Thanks.


I will do as I please with your posts. Thanks.
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Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:05 pm

Timminz wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Timminz wrote:
jimboston wrote:The Dept. of Customs and Immigration does NOT go around Boston rounding people up randomly and shipping them to other countries. This ISN'T happening... please don't suggest it does.

Them Canajuns is gettin all up in yer 'chusetts.

Please don't modify my posts. Thanks.


I will do as I please with your posts. Thanks.


If you are going to do it... you could at least use proper grammar.

Thanks :)
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Re: Illegal

Postby Timminz on Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:03 pm

jimboston wrote:
Timminz wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Timminz wrote:
jimboston wrote:The Dept. of Customs and Immigration does NOT go around Boston rounding people up randomly and shipping them to other countries. This ISN'T happening... please don't suggest it does.

Them Canajuns is gettin all up in yer 'chusetts.

Please don't modify my posts. Thanks.


I will do as I please with your posts. Thanks.


If you are going to do it... you could at least use proper grammar.

Thanks :)


What? Canajuns is a totally appropriate approximation of your slovenly drawl.
jay_a2j wrote:lets not be so quick to judge Hitler
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