Illegal

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Discussions Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Should someone be declared illegal before a trial?

Yes, absolutely
3
17%
Yes, in certain cases.
2
11%
I'm not sure
1
6%
No, but in some cases trials aren't necessary
2
11%
No- I presume innocence before the outcome
4
22%
Kittens have a right to due cuteness
6
33%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: Illegal

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:53 am

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Do you have any evidence or other background for your assertion that Americans say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence?


I would be surprised if they don't. I'm not sure I'd be quite as annoyed at someone pointing out that it's incorrect, and that presumption of innocence is important.


You'd be surprised if they don't? Ha... okay.

I'm not annoyed, I'm just confused.


Edited.


I'm even more confused. I'm going to report you for trolling.


Good luck with that.


Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3599
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:06 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Do you have any evidence or other background for your assertion that Americans say someone is illegal without the presumption of innocence?


I would be surprised if they don't. I'm not sure I'd be quite as annoyed at someone pointing out that it's incorrect, and that presumption of innocence is important.


You'd be surprised if they don't? Ha... okay.

I'm not annoyed, I'm just confused.


Edited.


I'm even more confused. I'm going to report you for trolling.


GD... we should have been able to figure out by now that Symmetry is trying to fill the vacuum left by PimpDave. Yes, I agree he's doing a poor job, but let's give him an E for Effort.
User avatar
Private jimboston
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:45 pm
Location: Boston (Area), Massachusetts; U.S.A.
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:44 am

You know I can still read your posts, right?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:52 pm

Symmetry wrote:You know I can still read your posts, right?


You can read?

Maybe you are like my 5yo.. you can read the words, but you lack comprehension.
User avatar
Private jimboston
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:45 pm
Location: Boston (Area), Massachusetts; U.S.A.
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:02 pm

jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:You know I can still read your posts, right?


You can read?

Maybe you are like my 5yo.. you can read the words, but you lack comprehension.


You have a 5 year old? Do the parents know?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:14 am

Symmetry wrote:
jimboston wrote:
Symmetry wrote:You know I can still read your posts, right?


You can read?

Maybe you are like my 5yo.. you can read the words, but you lack comprehension.


You have a 5 year old? Do the parents know?


Again Ad Hominem... do you ever reply with substance?
User avatar
Private jimboston
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:45 pm
Location: Boston (Area), Massachusetts; U.S.A.
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Illegal

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:44 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
User avatar
Major MeDeFe
 
Posts: 8098
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:48 am
Location: Follow the trail of holes in other people's arguments.
Medals: 21
Standard Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) General Achievement (3) General Contribution (7)

Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:03 am

MeDeFe wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?


1) This guy told ICE he wasn't a citizen to avoid jail. Then he files a suit against the gov't when they listen to him???

"What becomes clear in this report is that once Lyttle, who has a long, well-documented record in the criminal databases as a U.S. citizen, indicates he wants to go to Mexico ... and so agrees that he is from Mexico and tells the ICE agent at a jail where he is classified as bipolar that he wants her to set it all up.

2) Close the thread because the OP is only using it as a platform to insult people.
User avatar
Private jimboston
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:45 pm
Location: Boston (Area), Massachusetts; U.S.A.
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Illegal

Postby Gillipig on Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:48 am

Enough with the closed threads already. Do you get butthurt easily or what?
AoG for President of the World!!
I promise he will put George W. Bush to shame!
User avatar
Lieutenant Gillipig
 
Posts: 3053
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:24 pm
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (6) Tournament Contribution (3)

Re: Illegal

Postby MeDeFe on Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:28 am

jimboston wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?


1) This guy told ICE he wasn't a citizen to avoid jail. Then he files a suit against the gov't when they listen to him???

"What becomes clear in this report is that once Lyttle, who has a long, well-documented record in the criminal databases as a U.S. citizen, indicates he wants to go to Mexico ... and so agrees that he is from Mexico and tells the ICE agent at a jail where he is classified as bipolar that he wants her to set it all up.

2) Close the thread because the OP is only using it as a platform to insult people.

Scroll down, there's more than one case documented. And then there's a link "Older Posts" which takes you to a second page that's as long as the first one. In all there seem to be six pages. Also: "Bipolar" as in the mental disorder, I'm sure you've heard of it.

Go on, read the rest of it. Familiarise yourself with the appeals process which can take months or years. Those are months or years during which a US citizen is held against their will by an agency that legally has no jurisdiction over US citizens, without being provided with an attorney or being allowed any of the rights which are legally granted to them.

Here's an article providing something of an overview.
http://www.thenation.com/article/thin-ice


As for the second point, for now we'll see how this develops.
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
User avatar
Major MeDeFe
 
Posts: 8098
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:48 am
Location: Follow the trail of holes in other people's arguments.
Medals: 21
Standard Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (1) General Achievement (3) General Contribution (7)

Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:14 am

MeDeFe wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?


I'm not sure because I'm still not sure I understand what this thread is about. Is it about the presumption of innocence? Is it about the presumption of innocence with respect to deportation proceedings? Is it about deportation proceedings generally?

If there was only some way we could get Symmetry to be less obtuse...

By the way, I skimmed the blog you've posted and noticed there was very little, if any, discussion of due process or removal proceedings.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:09 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?


I'm not sure because I'm still not sure I understand what this thread is about. Is it about the presumption of innocence? Is it about the presumption of innocence with respect to deportation proceedings? Is it about deportation proceedings generally?

If there was only some way we could get Symmetry to be less obtuse...

By the way, I skimmed the blog you've posted and noticed there was very little, if any, discussion of due process or removal proceedings.


You could possibly start by posting a bit less about how obtuse I am, how I'm on your list, and other such nonsense.

What would you like me to explain?

I guess this has gone the way of illegal as describing "illegal immigrants", so it seems to me that that your questions are tied.

Are "illegal immigrants" actually illegal if they haven't received a trial judging their actions against the law? Should declaring someone to have done something illegal be part of the judicial process? Or should there be a presumption of innocence prior to a trial?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Illegal

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:52 am

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Good point. MeDeFe's got your back.

I've definitely got something here, but I'm not sure what the hell it is.

Are you guys going to go back to debating about the fact that a couple hundred US citizens are deported from the USA every year (http://stateswithoutnations.blogspot.de/search/label/ICE%20deporting%20US%20citizens), and about how hard or easy it is to get ID in the USA, and how the deportation process could or should be improved?
Or should I just lock this thread?


I'm not sure because I'm still not sure I understand what this thread is about. Is it about the presumption of innocence? Is it about the presumption of innocence with respect to deportation proceedings? Is it about deportation proceedings generally?

If there was only some way we could get Symmetry to be less obtuse...

By the way, I skimmed the blog you've posted and noticed there was very little, if any, discussion of due process or removal proceedings.


You could possibly start by posting a bit less about how obtuse I am, how I'm on your list, and other such nonsense.

What would you like me to explain?

I guess this has gone the way of illegal as describing "illegal immigrants", so it seems to me that that your questions are tied.

Are "illegal immigrants" actually illegal if they haven't received a trial judging their actions against the law? Should declaring someone to have done something illegal be part of the judicial process? Or should there be a presumption of innocence prior to a trial?


Stop whining.

Is your problem that the phrase "illegal immigrants" is applied haphazardly to people who may or may not be actual illegal immigrants?
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Illegal

Postby jimboston on Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:41 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Stop whining.

Is your problem that the phrase "illegal immigrants" is applied haphazardly to people who may or may not be actual illegal immigrants?


TGD... do you actually expect to get a real answer from him?

You know he's not going to clarify his "point" because he doesn't have one.
User avatar
Private jimboston
 
Posts: 433
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:45 pm
Location: Boston (Area), Massachusetts; U.S.A.
Medals: 15
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2) Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Illegal

Postby Symmetry on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:26 pm

jimboston wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Stop whining.

Is your problem that the phrase "illegal immigrants" is applied haphazardly to people who may or may not be actual illegal immigrants?


TGD... do you actually expect to get a real answer from him?

You know he's not going to clarify his "point" because he doesn't have one.


Was that your point? Thanks for the contribution, as always.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

PreviousNext

Return to Whose Forum is It Anyway?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MoB Deadly, shaneback and 3 guests

Login