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Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:48 pm

OK Lionz - I pick the moon dust argument as the first one we should tackle. We can tackle other stoo but like I said one at a time.

To tackle this I'm going to pull together each quote I can find from you over the past 10 pages of this thread (turns out there's only 2 I could find skim reading through) and quote them here to try and give a good sense of your argument. Then I'll give you a chance to add anything else you would like to add, or correct anything you feel you have misrepresented about your position in any of the posts. Then I'll show you why you're wrong ;-)

The Moon's Dust

Interplanetary dust and meteors is depositing dust on the moon at the rate of at least 14,300,000 tons per year. At this rate, if the moon were 4.5 billion years old there would be at least 440 feet of dust on the moon. The astronauts, however, found a layer only 1/8 to three inches thick. Three inches would take only 8000 years. Even evolutionists believe the moon is the same age as the earth, giving the earth's age as only 8000 years.


Concerning the moon and dust?

If you figure there is going to be a bunch of dust on something based on how old you think it is and how fast you think dust is collecting on it and you come to find there is barely any dust on it at all, is it more logical to assume the dust gathered alot slower than you thought than to consider a possibility that the something is younger than you thought?

Even if Snelling and Rush came forward and claimed that one or more thing was consistent with a current meteoritic dust influx rate operating over the evolutionistsā€™ timescale, was there not very real concern about moon dust in the 1950s and 1960s? Just how much would an estimate be off even if the moon has less gravitational pull than the earth? Do you think 4,300,000 tons is a number came up with by some random guy trying to pick up moon dust with his hand on a mountain without considering differences between the sun and moon if Isaac Asimov actually published stuff in Science Digest? And what was simply Asimov?

"I get a picture, therefore, of the first spaceship, picking out a nice level place for landing purposes, coming in slowly downward tail-first and sinking majestically out of sight. Isaac Asimov, ā€œ14 Million Tons of Dust Per Year,ā€ Science Digest, J-nuary 1959, p. 36."

"Lyttleton felt that dust from only the erosion of exposed Moon rocks by ultraviolet light and x-rays ā€œcould during the age of the moon be sufficient to form a layer over it several miles deep.ā€ Raymond A. Lyttleton, The Modern Universe (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1956), p. 72."

"Thomas Gold proposed that thick layers of dust accumulated in the lunar maria. [See Thomas Gold, ā€œThe Lunar Surface,ā€ Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society of London, Vol. 115, 1955, pp. 585ā€“604.]"

"Fears about the dust thickness lessened when instruments were sent to the Moon from 1964 to 1968. However, some concern still remained, at least in Neil Armstrongā€™s mind, as he stepped on the Moon. [See transcript of conversations from the Moon, Chicago Tribune, 21 July 1969, Section 1, p. 1, and Paul D. Ackerman, Itā€™s a Young World After All (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1986), p. 19.]"
-http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ReferencesandNotes79.html

"Moon Dust
I have right here on the floorā€”since I am in my home city hereā€”I have an actual porthole from a space capsule. It is so pitted, you can hardly see through it. Now, we have added a few more scratches through the years hauling this thing around. But, it was all pitted when they first took it out of the space capsule because out of space is full of dust. Imagine blasting off with all that! The reason it is pitted is because outer space is full of dust. And when they are traveling around at 18,000 miles an hour, they run into the dust and it hits the glass. Well, the earth and the moon are running around togetherā€”theyā€™re running around the sun at about 66,000 miles an hour. So the earth and the moon are running into all this dust in space. Kind of like your windshield collects bugs certain times of the year, and it gets thicker and thicker on the surface of the moon and on the earth, this dust does, because it is running into it. The problem is, on earth we have air, which makes wind and water and any dust that lands here gets mixed in. Once in awhile you will see a little bit on your furniture from time to time. How many have seen [some] of that before? This cosmic dust coming in from outer space generally gets incorporated into soil. But on the moon they have no wind and no water. So any dust that lands on the moon is going to be undisturbed.


OK that's your two posts about moon dust. Do they fully represent your argument on this particular subject or would you like to add / amend anything?

If you want to pick a different topic then fine, but spell out your argument from the start please so we can keep it all nicely contained.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby rdsrds2120 on Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:00 pm

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:57 pm

Here we have creationists using faulty arguments to prove that creationism is true. Don't they know that the interstellar dust argument was shot down long ago? A little bit of research would alert them to this.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:04 pm

I love that string of comments at the bottom - missed the point much zuma?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby warmonger1981 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:02 pm

creation and evolution are both religions since they are both based on faith. there is no proof for either side to be right or wrong. creationists say that God made all this. evolutionists say we all came from a big bang and came from a rock and somehow transformed into some type of organism that evolved into what we have today.... yet both cant truly prove beyond a dout who is right, thats why both are religions. i skipped a few parts in both creations and evolution processes but you get the idea....
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:05 pm

Oh come on we're at page 87 and people are still posting rubbish like that?

There is oodles and oodles (yes that is a scientific term) of evidence for both evolution and the big bang. It's just the people who have influenced you have lied to you in order to falsely discredit it. The mere fact you're saying evolution tries to explain the big bang or abiogensis shows just how big the gaps in the stuff you've been taught are. That's not your fault, but get out there and read up, do actual research on the subjects and you will find all the evidence you need. It's all out there, you just have to go look for it.

Nobody (at least nobody sensible) will ever say that there can be no creator. But we're talking about biblical God here, and there is both no evidence and huge contradictions in the definition for Him. If there were the same contradictions and inconsistencies in a scientific theory it would be laughed out of town before you even got to the 2nd day of Genesis in the story.

One day I hope you realise just how insulting you're being to the entire human race to suggest that science is faith, but I'm not going to hold my breath....
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:21 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:creation and evolution are both religions since they are both based on faith. there is no proof for either side to be right or wrong. creationists say that God made all this. evolutionists say we all came from a big bang and came from a rock and somehow transformed into some type of organism that evolved into what we have today.... yet both cant truly prove beyond a dout who is right, thats why both are religions. i skipped a few parts in both creations and evolution processes but you get the idea....


what would qualify as evidence in your opinion?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:55 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:creation and evolution are both religions since they are both based on faith. there is no proof for either side to be right or wrong. creationists say that God made all this. evolutionists say we all came from a big bang and came from a rock and somehow transformed into some type of organism that evolved into what we have today.... yet both cant truly prove beyond a dout who is right, thats why both are religions. i skipped a few parts in both creations and evolution processes but you get the idea....


You have made the single most retarded post in the history of online forums. I'm shocked that you've done so little research into either subject and yet you manage to speak on them as if you know what you're talking about.

Jesus Christ, do some fucking research. The biggest difference between creationism and evolution is that you won't find evolution in the fiction section of a library.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby john9blue on Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:40 pm

oss spy wrote:
warmonger1981 wrote:creation and evolution are both religions since they are both based on faith. there is no proof for either side to be right or wrong. creationists say that God made all this. evolutionists say we all came from a big bang and came from a rock and somehow transformed into some type of organism that evolved into what we have today.... yet both cant truly prove beyond a dout who is right, thats why both are religions. i skipped a few parts in both creations and evolution processes but you get the idea....


You have made the single most retarded post in the history of online forums. I'm shocked that you've done so little research into either subject and yet you manage to speak on them as if you know what you're talking about.

Jesus Christ, do some fucking research. The biggest difference between creationism and evolution is that you won't find evolution in the fiction section of a library.


and yet his post contained more useful information than yours
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:12 am

john9blue wrote:
oss spy wrote:
warmonger1981 wrote:creation and evolution are both religions since they are both based on faith. there is no proof for either side to be right or wrong. creationists say that God made all this. evolutionists say we all came from a big bang and came from a rock and somehow transformed into some type of organism that evolved into what we have today.... yet both cant truly prove beyond a dout who is right, thats why both are religions. i skipped a few parts in both creations and evolution processes but you get the idea....


You have made the single most retarded post in the history of online forums. I'm shocked that you've done so little research into either subject and yet you manage to speak on them as if you know what you're talking about.

Jesus Christ, do some fucking research. The biggest difference between creationism and evolution is that you won't find evolution in the fiction section of a library.


and yet his post contained more useful information than yours


How so John?Do you know of religions named 'creation' or 'evolution'..?The study of evolution is not remotely concerned with the big bang,or abiogenesis as you well know.To describe this nonesense as retarded is generous yet you think the 1st post contains more useful info?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:06 am

Well if you have evidence of humans evolving from nothing with no gaps (such as a missing link) prove it otherwise I say you have FAITH in science. Remember science also told humanity the earth was flat. So if you lived in those times you must have been right. Science is nothing more than a bunch of people all being able to agree on something even though they may change their opinion many times throughout the process...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:14 am

God is not bound by laws of physics. God is outside of time.space and material. In the beginning (time) God created the heaven (space) and earth(material). A day to God could be millions of years to humans. So as far as Genesis goes you might not be able to take it litterally crisps
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:28 am

I also think that people look to science for all the answers as if it were some sort of God with all the answers. Remember what is fact today will be dismissed years from now. Funny how humans think we know everything yet we are still infants in the big picture of time and knowledge.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:39 am

warmonger1981 wrote:I also think that people look to science for all the answers as if it were some sort of God with all the answers. Remember what is fact today will be dismissed years from now. Funny how humans think we know everything yet we are still infants in the big picture of time and knowledge.


Are you a human being?

If "yes," how do you know?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:54 am

warmonger1981 wrote:I also think that people look to science for all the answers as if it were some sort of God with all the answers. Remember what is fact today will be dismissed years from now. Funny how humans think we know everything yet we are still infants in the big picture of time and knowledge.

I thought people look to answers in Science, because it is, well Science.


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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:25 am

warmonger1981 wrote:I also think that people look to science for all the answers as if it were some sort of God with all the answers. Remember what is fact today will be dismissed years from now. Funny how humans think we know everything yet we are still infants in the big picture of time and knowledge.


That is precisely the strength of the scientific method,it is a work in progress,it doesn't pretend to give us anything but the latest answers and rejoices when new ones are accepted.Contrast that to theism whose adherents often arrogantly believe they can provide absolute answers to questions that are on a scale of complexity way beyond the comprehension of our partially evolved mammalian species.Anything but humble IMHO..
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:05 pm

Your other post has been dealt with by a few others.... so....

warmonger1981 wrote:Well if you have evidence of humans evolving from nothing with no gaps (such as a missing link) prove it otherwise I say you have FAITH in science. Remember science also told humanity the earth was flat. So if you lived in those times you must have been right. Science is nothing more than a bunch of people all being able to agree on something even though they may change their opinion many times throughout the process...


Evolution isn't limited to ONLY humans. On mammals evolutionary changes take thousands or millions of years to become distinguishable from normal generational mutations like "he just has an abnormally large nose/ears/whatever". We can however show the effects on very short lifespan fast reproducing organisms such as in the following page:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... e-lab.html

warmonger1981 wrote:God is not bound by laws of physics. God is outside of time.space and material. In the beginning (time) God created the heaven (space) and earth(material). A day to God could be millions of years to humans. So as far as Genesis goes you might not be able to take it litterally crisps


I'm not the one taking anything literally. I'm taking every piece of information I'm given, and weighing it up against all the other pieces of information I've been given, based on credibility and provability of premises, rationality of processes, validity of conclusions and competence and expertise of the person making the interpretation from raw facts to narrative. You should try it sometime, it really is illuminating! It's called the scientific method, and it's why your sunday school teacher shouldn't be preaching astrophysics or advanced biology and should stick to religion.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:24 pm

Didnt say I was a believer in religion did I? Didn't think so. Also didn't say I believed completely in science. And no this life we Think we live Could be all a dream. I mean how does anyone know this is all nothing more than a dream? I guess what I'm saying is no one can say for sure. All the information in the world will neither prove for or against religion or science. That's where faith comes into play. Scientists THINK their right or have faith in the end answer. If science is so right then why are there still billions of believers in religion if it is so easily proven false?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:41 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:Didnt say I was a believer in religion did I? Didn't think so. Also didn't say I believed completely in science. And no this life we Think we live Could be all a dream. I mean how does anyone know this is all nothing more than a dream? I guess what I'm saying is no one can say for sure. All the information in the world will neither prove for or against religion or science. That's where faith comes into play. Scientists THINK their right or have faith in the end answer. If science is so right then why are there still billions of believers in religion if it is so easily proven false?


Evidence suggests that life isn't a dream (at least in the definition of a dream you are suggesting). This sort of argument sort of sounds like the 'Tides go in, tides go out' argument that circled around the zeitgeist last year or so.

Oh, and there is a little beauty in piece by the Bad Astronomer. Recently some new models of Earth-Moon system show that maybe the collision that created the system was bigger than first thought and widely accepted, and if it turns out to be based on better evidence than the previous model, science will likely embrace it (eventually, even science has bias at times!)


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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:48 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:Didnt say I was a believer in religion did I? Didn't think so. Also didn't say I believed completely in science. And no this life we Think we live Could be all a dream. I mean how does anyone know this is all nothing more than a dream? I guess what I'm saying is no one can say for sure. All the information in the world will neither prove for or against religion or science. That's where faith comes into play. Scientists THINK their right or have faith in the end answer. If science is so right then why are there still billions of believers in religion if it is so easily proven false?


So now you know what scientists think!!Can you name even one scientist who has said religion is easily proven false,as opposed to one who doesn't believe in the claims made by religion?If you are going to make sweeping and uninformed claims like this you have to back them up before they can be taken seriously......
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:50 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:Didnt say I was a believer in religion did I? Didn't think so. Also didn't say I believed completely in science. And no this life we Think we live Could be all a dream. I mean how does anyone know this is all nothing more than a dream? I guess what I'm saying is no one can say for sure. All the information in the world will neither prove for or against religion or science. That's where faith comes into play. Scientists THINK their right or have faith in the end answer. If science is so right then why are there still billions of believers in religion if it is so easily proven false?


Actually you did say you are a believer in religion:

warmonger1981 wrote:I am a man of faith by the way and thats all I have.


From this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=175962&p=3863373#p3863373

Ever read any Descartes by any chance?

All the information we have that is coming down on one side or the other if the question is "what can teach us more about how the universe works?" is coming down on the side of science.

There is no information to come down on either side if the question is "What made the universe start?". Religions make claims about their stories but none that I have seen has ever provided a scrap of actual evidence. Science doesn't even try to give an answer, as it's outside of it's remit. Talk to any astrophysicist and they'll tell you the furthest back we can go with current theories is a few millionths of a second after the big bang.

If there is such a thing as "faith in science" then it's not faith that our scientific ANSWERS are correct. It's faith that our scientific METHOD is correct. And even then faith is the wrong word, because faith is belief without evidence, and we have so much evidence that the scientific method works to constantly allow us to better our understanding of the universe. In fact, the very post you made in this thread and others is part of that. Without scientific advances in electronics, materials science, algorithmic mathematics and hundreds of other various basic and advanced techniques we'd still be writing this conversation to each other on cave walls with ground up plant dyes.

If you really don't "believe in science" then turn off your computer, turn off any electric lights, take your clothes off because chances are they are made of semi-synthetic fabrics (unless your wear 100% silk and cotton), don't watch TV, don't read printed books, only hand written ones, walk (or ride a horse/donkey) to work tomorrow and when you get there don't use any computers or machinery. I hope you don't need glasses or contact lenses because without science you wouldn't be able to see clearly. No beer either, brewing is just a by-product of chemistry. When you have lunch you better make sure it's fresh from the farm and cooked over a fire or in a wood oven rather than in an electric/gas oven. Throw your mobile phone away as that's just faith based too. But of course there's no evidence that science is right, just an entire global infrastructure that, when you consider it's complexity, is a "miracle" in and of itself that it doesn't just fall over and fail given that science is just "faith".
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:17 pm

chang im not speaking for all scientists on a whole but science in general proves something to be right or wrong does it not? when it came to stating: warmonger1981 wrote:
Didnt say I was a believer in religion did I? Didn't think so. Also didn't say I believed completely in science. And no this life we Think we live Could be all a dream. I mean how does anyone know this is all nothing more than a dream? I guess what I'm saying is no one can say for sure. All the information in the world will neither prove for or against religion or science. That's where faith comes into play. Scientists THINK their right or have faith in the end answer. If science is so right then why are there still billions of believers in religion if it is so easily proven false?


Actually you did say you are a believer in religion:

warmonger1981 wrote:
I am a man of faith by the way and thats all I have.
lets not get petty .. i was speaking in this forum........and even if science proves evolution does it prove that god does or doesnt exist ??
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:50 pm

Actually you did say you are a believer in religion:

warmonger1981 wrote:
I am a man of faith by the way and thats all I have.
lets not get petty .. i was speaking in this forum........and even if science proves evolution does it prove that god does or doesnt exist ??[/quote]

Strawman,nobody has come close to arguing it does...not being petty but you seem seriously confused here..
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:10 am

When you go to open a door, you don't doubt the existence of the doorknob by pondering that there may be no doorknob, or no door for that matter. If you sincerely doubt reality, you'll attempt to walk through. But no one (who's sane) does this. Why? Because of sensual experience and learning:

This isn't an exercise of faith. This is experience and action. What we perceive with our senses is real, and sensual experience is the fundamental means with which science operates. To call this faith is completely wrong and evidently makes no sense.

The belief in something which is not observable or is immaterial while positing cause-and-effect relationships between the real, observable world and this Supernatural Thing is the essence of faith (and theology). That's not science by any stretch of the English language.

warmonger1981 does not understand this fundamental dichotomy between science and faith. And he seems to be a radical skeptic of reality, which is unfortunate. Perhaps he doubts the existence of a doorknob right before he extends his hand to open the door? (I doubt it. His fingers type, but his actions in everyday life reject his radical skepticism---unless of course he's mentally ill, which may be the case).
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:17 am

warmonger1981 wrote:If science is so right then why are there still billions of believers in religion if it is so easily proven false?


1. Because cognitive bias.
2. Because network effects of religion.
3. Because of the benefits of weak ties within a club (i.e. local religious community and a more widespread identity).
4. Because low search costs to fundamental questions which are difficult to answer.
(Why did A happen? Cuz God. Oh okay! /end dilemma).
etc.

In other words, the benefits still offset the costs.


1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpersonal_ties
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_goods
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_cost
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substituti ... onomics%29
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps



warmonger1981 wrote:......and even if science proves evolution does it prove that god does or doesnt exist ??


No, but it does narrow down the alleged cause-and-effect arguments espoused by various religions. Of course, some may reject the scientific explanation due to reasons #1-4 and etc.
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