An Ancient Greek Revamp

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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:03 am

Would definitely like to see an updated version. :D


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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby Mr. K on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:15 am

This one *is* the updated version ;)

viewtopic.php?p=3936431#p3936431

Unfortunately as I say in the post a few above it, i'm pretty limited in what I am actually able to do as I don't have the original file, all I can do is play around with what is already there.
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:22 am

Sorry Mr. K, what I meant in my post was that I'd like to see an updated version of the map available for play, not demanding you to show an update in topic! :D My apologies for being unclear.


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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby Mr. K on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:42 am

My apologies for misreading you! Nice to see you're still around, by the way. :)
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby generalhead on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:41 pm

The colors and the patterns are a lot better than the old ancient Greece. I like the dancing Indians and the ships in the water, I think they add to the map. The mountains are definitely sweet looking. I am a big fan of this map, I have played a lot of games here and I think an update would be nice.
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:24 pm

Mr. K, send a PM to thenobodies80 and ask him what the procedure is not for revamps. The last few had to go through the main foundry process and beta again to make sure the new map had no problems.

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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:05 am

Why would this have to go through the foundry process though?

The gameplay is exactly the same, it's just updated graphics.

I think we can all agree that it looks a lot better than what we have now, so why all the extra bs?
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:16 am

Because people will spot mistakes that the map maker may not. The last few went through are

Nordic Counties
Drug Wars
Portugal
North America (and that was a competition winner)

Just because it is a revamp of an existing map, it needs to go through graphics, xml and beta testing again to make sure their are no problems with the new graphics.
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby Mr. K on Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:16 am

>I think we can all agree that it looks a lot better than what we have now, so why all the extra bs?

Lol i've been wondering this for 4 years now. ;)

Everything is exactly the same as the map that is being played on now and has been played since 2006 I believe. The coordinates of the borders, territory names, troop number locations are all the same. It's just pretty, new (well ...), graphics.

Still I understand that there is a beta process so I have no problem with this going through that as it only makes sense, as long as it's understood that if somehow there was a problem, there isn't much I can do graphically to fix it.
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:22 am

Mr. K wrote:>I think we can all agree that it looks a lot better than what we have now, so why all the extra bs?-

It looks better and no one is disputing that. As for the extra BS, why should other map makers go through a process while you get a pass?
Mr. K wrote:as long as it's understood that if somehow there was a problem, there isn't much I can do graphically to fix it.

:-s
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby Arama86n on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:25 am

I hope your doing this because YOU want to Mr.K, not because of pressure from others.
Ancient Greece is one my favourites, and has a distinctive and slightly unusual graphic style which I'm sure many have come to love. In my opinion (and hell I'm colour-blind) The map is very easy to read, the borders between bonuses clearly defined. I see no reason for a change.

As for the actual new version; the only suggestion I have is to make the dots that make up the sea routes darker. It is the kind of thing people easily miss on new maps.

Btw, while I'm here writing to you; thanks for a great map that I've enjoyed for many an hour. =D> . I suppose I'll go start a game or two on it, enjoy the old classic graphics while I still can :(
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:12 am

After reading the thread, it seems to me that your current attempt is just to add new/nicer graphics to the current map with no gameplay changes.

Usually, if a map comes back into production we (CAs) check the gameplay. But in this case you have good starting numbers and like you said the map has spent lot of time online without any particular issue. If one of the gameplay guys has no personal (they must be really valid) concerns on the current gameplay, I don't see why we should touch it.

Now, althought it's clear that the version of the map you posted is more pleasing than the current one we have on the site, the foundry has its procedures. These procedures are there to ensure that all maps are up to the CC standards. The fact your map was up to the standards when it was quenched the first time doesn't mean it is up to them nowdays; the standards are subject to changes through the time and, actually, our standards are higher than in past.
So, i think that the map should pass, at least for the graphical part, under a period of public review before to replace the current version.
I know it's your map, but here we're not talking about a small fix. It's more a general overhaul from a graphical perspective.

Like koontz has said you can miss some things other can see.
For example, more time I spend looking at the map and more things I see on it that you can improve:

(posting the image here to comment)
Click image to enlarge.
image


You said that you have lost the old files, so to draw the above image you have created a new image on the old one. But this doesn't mean that now you can't change the map anymore. You need only to work on the new file/layers.

Now, let me stop a second. I don't want to seems an evil man that find funny to ask you to waste time. I clearly see what you have already done, let me say that the current version is much much better than the map that is online. This is my personal point of view, but it's not an objective review of the map.

From a objective point of view, the sea could have some more love...it's not bad but I think you can do better.
I see borders are more clear now, but i think you can improve some sea connnections (e.g. andros/tinos is almost invisible)
Personally I would go with more trasparency on the army circles.
Redraw this mountain...it's terrible!
Image

I would suggest also to try to center the small temple (the one with the title) on the rectangle of the legend. I think you can easily move the rectangle to left and have the bonus numbers more close to their respective names. Also the signature can be moved to left to compensate the empty space. Or make the rectangle smaller, if you prefer. :)

Btw, since we're talking about the legend....I've always wondered why on the map the bonus name is Peloponesos. Afaik it should be Peloponnesos, but maybe I'm wrong.
i think also that some circles/names can be moved a bit, but I leave this job to the graphics guys. ;)

So, considering this is a ONLY graphics revamp, I move it to the main foundry to the graphics stage for a "not so long" review period, as soon as we're sure that everything is in the right place the map can be replaced. I'll edit your first post to add a note, a tag and add the dot.

[Moved] to the graphics stage.

Again, nice revamp continnue to work on it, there's no so much to do! :)
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp [ONLY GRAPHICS]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:46 pm

Mr. K. now that nobodies has moved this to the foundry proper for a graphics overhaul, good luck and I do hope you follow through with it. I like this new version but I do have a certain fondness for the old version. Here are some initial thoughts for now.

Army circles, remove or reduce opacity. They are very ugly at the moment and detract from the nice new map.
Sea routes, all of these could do with some love. Some are hard to see (Andros-Tinos), some look badly drawn (Argolis-Kyklades) and others could do with a single line and not three pasted together (Kyklades-Krete).
Names, why are some bigger than others? Get them all the aem size as the larger names do not have any game play importance. Reduce the glow around them. Some could be moved into the territ proper (Phrygia).
I love the mountains but the one nobodies pointed out needs some love. Also, blend them into the map some more.

I do have a few more things but do not want to scare you away right now with a huge amount of work. ;)
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp [ONLY GRAPHICS]

Postby Mr. K on Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:15 pm

The reason I say I can't do much here is because I don't have the original files. I can't change, for example, how opaque the army circles are because all I have is the flattened, 1 layer image. I don't have that kind of control over the image anymore.

It looks better and no one is disputing that. As for the extra BS, why should other map makers go through a process while you get a pass?

I was quoting the other guy's post here, sorry for the confusion I didn't use the correct syntax for making a quotation. In response to your response to the second thing I said - I have pointed out the reasons why I can't fix in other places - but will also do so in this post - so read on ;)

You said that you have lost the old files, so to draw the above image you have created a new image on the old one. But this doesn't mean that now you can't change the map anymore. You need only to work on the new file/layers.


There may be a misunderstanding. I lost layered files for this edition of the map (as well as the old one). Yes, to make this edition, I traced the old one - but then four years passed and hard drives crashed and now all that's left of this version of the map is what I posted here.

Sure, as I've said there are still some things that I can do, but many very basic things which I cannot.

Now, althought it's clear that the version of the map you posted is more pleasing than the current one we have on the site, the foundry has its procedures. These procedures are there to ensure that all maps are up to the CC standards. The fact your map was up to the standards when it was quenched the first time doesn't mean it is up to them nowdays; the standards are subject to changes through the time and, actually, our standards are higher than in past.


I understand that completely, and if I were starting from scratch there are a lot of things I would do a lot different, but I don't have the time for something like that. I agree that the original map's graphics wouldn't and shouldn't hold up to the standards you have now - that's exactly why I did this revamp 4 years ago. Perhaps what I ended up with still didn't doesn't meet the standards of today, but as i've said there is very little I can do to fix that. As i'm sure most people know, when you have a layered file, changing the width of borders or the boldness of a certain graphic is a completely trivial problem - doing that to a flat image is basically impossible and would require starting from scratch. So what i'm saying is that - for the most part (and again I acknowledge there are some things I can do) - what you see is what you get, and since the standards are much higher for graphics now than they were in 2006 when the original map went live, and "what you see" is according to most much better than what we have, why not swap? For me, it's not about me "getting a pass" on the rules as koontz says, it doesn't do me any good to get away with something here. I just think it would be better for the site and it would make people happy if one of the maps was better than it is. Ideally I would start over and make it even better, and with community help and the high standards that you all have, it would be really excellent - but I do not have the time for a project like that.. at all. :( So it's not about trying to skirt the rules, I just think it's a shame that one of the earliest (and one of the uglier) maps we have has been largely re-done by its author and it's just sitting on the shelf for four years now.

With all of that said, let me respond to the specifics:

1. From a objective point of view, the sea could have some more love...it's not bad but I think you can do better.
2. I see borders are more clear now, but i think you can improve some sea connnections (e.g. andros/tinos is almost invisible)
3. Personally I would go with more trasparency on the army circles.
4. Redraw this mountain...it's terrible!


1. What do you mean? Keep in mind the restrictions I have - for example I can add another graphic, but I can't remove anything, or tone down the effects or colors or anything like that. Like I was saying before, many seemingly trivial things are basically impossible for me to change.

2. This is something I may be able to do something about. I won't be able to change the paths' shapes or the style but I can try to add some effect to make it a little bolder.

3. As I mentioned this is something I definitely cannot fix.

4. Good eye - that's an easy fix (as the mountains are part of a new layer).

I would suggest also to try to center the small temple (the one with the title) on the rectangle of the legend. I think you can easily move the rectangle to left and have the bonus numbers more close to their respective names. Also the signature can be moved to left to compensate the empty space. Or make the rectangle smaller, if you prefer.


Just to be clear - when I say I can't change something - it doesn't necessarily mean I disagree, just that I really have no power to.

In this case I have no power to change any of those things. If it was a layered image, I could alter the temple's dimensions, shape, position, etc., without effecting what is around/behind it. As is, I can't do anything like that.

Koontz, thanks for the input! Let me try and address your thoughts:

1. Army circles, remove or reduce opacity. They are very ugly at the moment and detract from the nice new map.
2. Sea routes, all of these could do with some love. Some are hard to see (Andros-Tinos), some look badly drawn (Argolis-Kyklades) and others could do with a single line and not three pasted together (Kyklades-Krete).
3. Names, why are some bigger than others? Get them all the aem size as the larger names do not have any game play importance. Reduce the glow around them. Some could be moved into the territ proper (Phrygia).
4. I love the mountains but the one nobodies pointed out needs some love. Also, blend them into the map some more.


1. As I said in response to thenobodies who had the same concern - I really can't do that :\

2. See my response to thenobodies note about this as well

3. At the time I was trying to use the space where I had it, and make the names in the "roomier" territories larger. I can see why that's annoying but this is going to be one of those completely unfixable problems :\

4. That little mountain shouldn't be a problem to fix - i'll see what I can do about making the rest of them feel more blended.


I appreciate the feedback guys - I'm sorry that I can't do this the "right" way. If I had the time I would rather just start from scratch (though honestly if I had the time I'd probably use it to make a brand new one.. :p Maybe "The Macedonian Question" showing the pre-WW1 struggle for power in the region?), but since this thing exists I feel like it would be nice to do what I can do to get it used. Just, as I said before, it should be noted that "what I can do" is almost nothing.
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Re: An Ancient Greek Revamp [ONLY GRAPHICS]

Postby Mr. K on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:26 pm

Image

How is this effect for the water paths? Like I was saying I can't just make the existing lines bolder so i'm having to redraw them on top of the existing ones - so before I finish - is this even working for you guys?

The ones that are changed are on the left, the originals are on the right.

Mountain is fixed.
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