Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:29 pm

Hey Woodruff, since you still respond to every post of mine for 2 months while never getting a response back and also knowing you are foed and I really REALLY do not read any of your posts. I didn't even read yours here, but I already know what it says :P

I will offer you a deal. Agree to mind your manners, refrain from namecalling, and for the love of sweet baby Jesus stop trolling, and I will take you off foe and engage in conversation with you.

Can you handle that?
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:33 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Hey Woodruff, since you still respond to every post of mine for 2 months while never getting a response back and also knowing you are foed and I really REALLY do not read any of your posts. I didn't even read yours here, but I already know what it says :P


You didn't read it, but you read it. I'm foed, but you read my posts anyway.

Phatscotty wrote:I will offer you a deal. Agree to mind your manners, refrain from namecalling, and for the love of sweet baby Jesus stop trolling, and I will take you off foe and engage in conversation with you.
Can you handle that?


You don't even answer basic questions. Once you start "minding your manners" and stop acting like a pathetic hypocritical lapdog for the Republican party, perhaps you'll find that you don't get treated like one. Maybe you haven't noticed, but I don't treat Night Strike like I do you even though I disagree with him at least as much...and that's because he is consistent and he answers the questions that are posed to him, rather than running away from them like a hypocritical douchebag.

If that's how you're going to continue to be, keep me foed. I don't really give a crap.
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:36 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:That's pretty much a prerequisite for being elected to political office, and applies equally well to politicians of all stripes. Doesn't answer my question.

I'll rephrase: How can you reconcile Obama's alleged Marxism with his total obedience to Wall Street's capitalist demands?


I simply am not naive enough to think that Obama would blow his Marxist load in one shot at the beginning of his first term......but perhaps it is slightly possible that it is for the power and the control, and what it will be in the future (not before re-election)

I don't think there's anything he could do now that would balance the books enough to make him even break even on the left/right spectrum.

He gave trillions to the banks and promoters of fiat currencies.

He cooked up the health care bill which over a decade or two will mean trillions in windfall profits to Big Pharma and the insurance industry.

He's continued to launch bomb and missile strikes against at least half a dozen countries in the Mideast, which will guarantee more trillions in profits to the military-industrial complex.

Even if he spent the entire second term serving left-wing causes, I don't think it will even be enough that a balancing of the books will see him as anything other than a right-wing Wall Street toady.
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:38 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:That's pretty much a prerequisite for being elected to political office, and applies equally well to politicians of all stripes. Doesn't answer my question.

I'll rephrase: How can you reconcile Obama's alleged Marxism with his total obedience to Wall Street's capitalist demands?


I simply am not naive enough to think that Obama would blow his Marxist load in one shot at the beginning of his first term......but perhaps it is slightly possible that it is for the power and the control, and what it will be in the future (not before re-election)

I don't think there's anything he could do now that would balance the books enough to make him even break even on the left/right spectrum.

He gave trillions to the banks and promoters of fiat currencies.

He cooked up the health care bill which over a decade or two will mean trillions in windfall profits to Big Pharma and the insurance industry.

He's continued to launch bomb and missile strikes against at least half a dozen countries in the Mideast, which will guarantee more trillions in profits to the military-industrial complex.

Even if he spent the entire second term serving left-wing causes, I don't think it will even be enough that a balancing of the books will see him as anything other than a right-wing Wall Street toady.


SOROS!!!!!
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:50 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:That's pretty much a prerequisite for being elected to political office, and applies equally well to politicians of all stripes. Doesn't answer my question.

I'll rephrase: How can you reconcile Obama's alleged Marxism with his total obedience to Wall Street's capitalist demands?


I simply am not naive enough to think that Obama would blow his Marxist load in one shot at the beginning of his first term......but perhaps it is slightly possible that it is for the power and the control, and what it will be in the future (not before re-election)

I don't think there's anything he could do now that would balance the books enough to make him even break even on the left/right spectrum.

He gave trillions to the banks and promoters of fiat currencies.


What I hear: He is destroying Capitalism and swallowing the banks. Marx wouldn't want that now.....would he?

Dukasaur wrote:He cooked up the health care bill which over a decade or two will mean trillions in windfall profits to Big Pharma and the insurance industry.


What I hear: And thereby making everyone their brothers keeper, and create the modern day slave masters with guaranteed cattle who cannot run away

Dukasaur wrote:He's continued to launch bomb and missile strikes against at least half a dozen countries in the Mideast, which will guarantee more trillions in profits to the military-industrial complex.


What I hear: Bombed countries that are at peace with Israel, or who's government needs to be taken over by the preferred guerrilla "brotherhood"
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:52 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Hey Woodruff, since you still respond to every post of mine for 2 months while never getting a response back and also knowing you are foed and I really REALLY do not read any of your posts. I didn't even read yours here, but I already know what it says :P


You didn't read it, but you read it. I'm foed, but you read my posts anyway.

Phatscotty wrote:I will offer you a deal. Agree to mind your manners, refrain from namecalling, and for the love of sweet baby Jesus stop trolling, and I will take you off foe and engage in conversation with you.
Can you handle that?


You don't even answer basic questions. Once you start "minding your manners" and stop acting like a pathetic hypocritical lapdog for the Republican party, perhaps you'll find that you don't get treated like one. Maybe you haven't noticed, but I don't treat Night Strike like I do you even though I disagree with him at least as much...and that's because he is consistent and he answers the questions that are posed to him, rather than running away from them like a hypocritical douchebag.

If that's how you're going to continue to be, keep me foed. I don't really give a crap.


Or you mean he lets you troll him, and I don't let you troll me....(first post of yours I read in 2 months)

Obviously, that is a no. Sounds like you want to foe me. Maybe that is a good idea
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Frigidus on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:03 am

Scotty, what actions could Obama take that would prove him to not be a Marxist? How far right wing would he have to be before you'd consider him to be, at the very least, moderate?
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby jimboston on Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:35 am

Frigidus wrote:Scotty, what actions could Obama take that would prove him to not be a Marxist? How far right wing would he have to be before you'd consider him to be, at the very least, moderate?


Moderate Marxist?
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:21 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Hey Woodruff, since you still respond to every post of mine for 2 months while never getting a response back and also knowing you are foed and I really REALLY do not read any of your posts. I didn't even read yours here, but I already know what it says :P


You didn't read it, but you read it. I'm foed, but you read my posts anyway.

Phatscotty wrote:I will offer you a deal. Agree to mind your manners, refrain from namecalling, and for the love of sweet baby Jesus stop trolling, and I will take you off foe and engage in conversation with you.
Can you handle that?


You don't even answer basic questions. Once you start "minding your manners" and stop acting like a pathetic hypocritical lapdog for the Republican party, perhaps you'll find that you don't get treated like one. Maybe you haven't noticed, but I don't treat Night Strike like I do you even though I disagree with him at least as much...and that's because he is consistent and he answers the questions that are posed to him, rather than running away from them like a hypocritical douchebag.

If that's how you're going to continue to be, keep me foed. I don't really give a crap.


Or you mean he lets you troll him, and I don't let you troll me....(first post of yours I read in 2 months)

Obviously, that is a no. Sounds like you want to foe me. Maybe that is a good idea


You two really should get a room and have some good make-up sex.
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:26 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:That's pretty much a prerequisite for being elected to political office, and applies equally well to politicians of all stripes. Doesn't answer my question.

I'll rephrase: How can you reconcile Obama's alleged Marxism with his total obedience to Wall Street's capitalist demands?


I simply am not naive enough to think that Obama would blow his Marxist load in one shot at the beginning of his first term......but perhaps it is slightly possible that it is for the power and the control, and what it will be in the future (not before re-election)

I don't think there's anything he could do now that would balance the books enough to make him even break even on the left/right spectrum.

He gave trillions to the banks and promoters of fiat currencies.


What I hear: He is destroying Capitalism and swallowing the banks. Marx wouldn't want that now.....would he?

Dukasaur wrote:He cooked up the health care bill which over a decade or two will mean trillions in windfall profits to Big Pharma and the insurance industry.


What I hear: And thereby making everyone their brothers keeper, and create the modern day slave masters with guaranteed cattle who cannot run away

Dukasaur wrote:He's continued to launch bomb and missile strikes against at least half a dozen countries in the Mideast, which will guarantee more trillions in profits to the military-industrial complex.


What I hear: Bombed countries that are at peace with Israel, or who's government needs to be taken over by the preferred guerrilla "brotherhood"

I think you're working too hard to squeeze Obama into your preconceived notions of him. Think Occam's Razor: is it more likely that he's putting on this elaborate ruse to hide his true nature, or that his true nature is exactly what it seems like?

Don't be afraid to admit that you were wrong. He isn't what I thought he would be, either, and I'm not afraid to re-examine what I originally thought of him.
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:05 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Hey Woodruff, since you still respond to every post of mine for 2 months while never getting a response back and also knowing you are foed and I really REALLY do not read any of your posts. I didn't even read yours here, but I already know what it says :P


You didn't read it, but you read it. I'm foed, but you read my posts anyway.

Phatscotty wrote:I will offer you a deal. Agree to mind your manners, refrain from namecalling, and for the love of sweet baby Jesus stop trolling, and I will take you off foe and engage in conversation with you.
Can you handle that?


You don't even answer basic questions. Once you start "minding your manners" and stop acting like a pathetic hypocritical lapdog for the Republican party, perhaps you'll find that you don't get treated like one. Maybe you haven't noticed, but I don't treat Night Strike like I do you even though I disagree with him at least as much...and that's because he is consistent and he answers the questions that are posed to him, rather than running away from them like a hypocritical douchebag.

If that's how you're going to continue to be, keep me foed. I don't really give a crap.


Or you mean he lets you troll him, and I don't let you troll me....(first post of yours I read in 2 months)

Obviously, that is a no. Sounds like you want to foe me. Maybe that is a good idea


It demonstrably ISN'T "the first post of mine you've read in 2 months", first of all. Secondly, I don't troll you. I explained all of this above, but hey, you've never been one for self-introspection, so why would I expect you to do it now? I don't have any intention of foeing you. I simply don't care if you leave me foed or not.
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Woodruff on Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:06 am

Frigidus wrote:Scotty, what actions could Obama take that would prove him to not be a Marxist? How far right wing would he have to be before you'd consider him to be, at the very least, moderate?


He could switch to the Republican Party. In Phatscotty's eyes, that's all that's necessary.
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:20 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:That's pretty much a prerequisite for being elected to political office, and applies equally well to politicians of all stripes. Doesn't answer my question.

I'll rephrase: How can you reconcile Obama's alleged Marxism with his total obedience to Wall Street's capitalist demands?


I simply am not naive enough to think that Obama would blow his Marxist load in one shot at the beginning of his first term......but perhaps it is slightly possible that it is for the power and the control, and what it will be in the future (not before re-election)

I don't think there's anything he could do now that would balance the books enough to make him even break even on the left/right spectrum.

He gave trillions to the banks and promoters of fiat currencies.


What I hear: He is destroying Capitalism and swallowing the banks. Marx wouldn't want that now.....would he?

Dukasaur wrote:He cooked up the health care bill which over a decade or two will mean trillions in windfall profits to Big Pharma and the insurance industry.


What I hear: And thereby making everyone their brothers keeper, and create the modern day slave masters with guaranteed cattle who cannot run away

Dukasaur wrote:He's continued to launch bomb and missile strikes against at least half a dozen countries in the Mideast, which will guarantee more trillions in profits to the military-industrial complex.


What I hear: Bombed countries that are at peace with Israel, or who's government needs to be taken over by the preferred guerrilla "brotherhood"

I think you're working too hard to squeeze Obama into your preconceived notions of him. Think Occam's Razor: is it more likely that he's putting on this elaborate ruse to hide his true nature, or that his true nature is exactly what it seems like?

Don't be afraid to admit that you were wrong. He isn't what I thought he would be, either, and I'm not afraid to re-examine what I originally thought of him.


how is the slew of Marxism in Obama's past my preconceived notion?

Have you never heard Obama brag, in quotes, about seeking out Marxist professors?
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:14 pm

Frigidus wrote:Scotty, what actions could Obama take that would prove him to not be a Marxist?


about the same actions my lady-friend can take to prove she was not getting gangbanged last night by the entire neighborhood
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby john9blue on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:34 pm

ITT people think that anti-free market politics qualify as "right-wing"...?
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:38 pm

the free market is how we like to roll because it works well with our principle of Liberty
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby Dukasaur on Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:39 pm

john9blue wrote:ITT people think that anti-free market politics qualify as "right-wing"...?

As indeed they do.

Preservation of power in the hands of the few has always been the central organising theme of conservatism, and the free market with its limitless potential for the workers to rise up and create their own destiny is anathema to conservatism.

Mercantilism versus laissez-faire. The right wing may make dishonest noises about supporting the free market, but in actual fact always lines up on the side of restraint of trade and mercantilism.

The very terms "left wing" and "right wing" date to the French Revolution, where the ruling classes in favour of preserving their Royal Monopolies lined up on the right side of the Estates, and the bourgeoisie looking for the right to compete in a free market lined up on the left.

The lines between liberal and conservative impulses became more clearly defined in 19th Century England. Conservatives organised around the idea of preserving the power of inherited wealth through protectionist measures like the infamous Corn Laws. A brief introduction:
The Corn Laws were trade laws designed to protect cereal producers in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland against competition from less expensive foreign imports between 1815 and 1846.[1] More simply, to ensure that British landowners reaped all the financial profits from farming, the corn laws (which imposed steep import duties) made it too expensive for anyone to import grain from other countries, even when the people of Great Britain and Ireland needed the food (as in times of famine).

The laws were introduced by the Importation Act 1815 (55 Geo. 3 c. 26) and repealed by the Importation Act 1846 (9 & 10 Vict. c. 22). These laws are often considered as examples of British mercantilism.[2]

The economic issue, in essence, was food prices; the price of grain was central to the price of the most important food staple, bread, and the working man spent much of his wages on bread.

The political issue was a dispute between landowners (a long-established class, who were heavily represented in Parliament) and the new class of manufacturers and industrialists (who were not): the former desired to maximise their profits from agriculture, by keeping the price at which they could sell their grain high; the latter wished to maximise their profits from manufacture, by reducing the wages they paid to their factory workers -- the difficulty being that men could not work in the factories if a factory wage was not enough to feed them and their families; hence, in practice, high grain prices kept factory wages high also.

The Corn Laws enhanced the profits and political power associated with land ownership; their abolition was a significant increase of free trade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_Laws
The Liberal Party, on the other hand, was born out of the Anti-Corn Law League, an organisation built around the idea of free trade.

The most significant passage from the above, "dispute between landowners (a long-established class, who were heavily represented in Parliament) and the new class of manufacturers and industrialists (who were not)" gets to the root of the problem. The right wing was composed of those who were wealthy through their inheritance of land (the essential immorality of land claims that can in all cases be traced back to bandits who seized land from others at the point of a sword is a larger issue which I'll leave for another day) and felt that it was the natural order of things that they should remain at the top of the economic pyramid in perpetuity. The radicals were the free market manufacturers and merchants who felt, essentially, that current production and not ancient expropriations should be the determiners of wealth.

In the modern U.S. we see much the same thing playing out. The right wing is always first to trumpet protectionist tariffs (to protect yesterday's producers from being threatened by today's producers), anticompetitive measures of every sort, such as barriers to market entry, mandatory membership in various cartels, etc, etc.

Gabriel Kolko brilliantly summarises this in The Triumph of Conservatism:
According to Kolko, major American businesses not only did not oppose many of the regulatory acts from 1900 through 1916 but actively sought and supported many reforms and regulations. The effect of government and big business actions was the creation of 'political capitalism,' "an utilization of political outlets to attain stability and rationalization in the economy."(3) In the extended introduction, Kolko elaborates further on his terminology, formulates main questions, clarifies methods, and states his theoretical sources, before commencing his interpretation of the 1890-1920 period. Kolko summarizes an enormous amount of compelling ideas and data. The ability to present in comprehensive form his summary and conclusions to the reader is one of the main merits of his book.

Kolko's analysis is based on the correspondence between businesses and government agencies and on papers of various government officials, including presidents. The author meticulously follows the evolution of the largest American monopolies and mergers, the changes in financial capitalism, and the relation of American presidents from McKinley to Wilson toward big business. The merger movement and the financial structure of the United States became "a matter for the combined resources of the national state, a political, rather than economic matter."(146) The legacy of reform, initiated by Theodore Roosevelt, had at the time of William Howard Taft ambiguous character, reflecting the very nature of progressivism.(159) The creation of the Federal Trade Commission and Trust Legislation in 1913 confirmed that progressivism was in fact a conservative movement and that the Democrat Wilson continued the policy of his Republican predecessors.(205) Wilsonian policies marked the triumph of political capitalism, the synthesis of policies and economies.(279) Businessmen were the major initiators of federal intervention in the economy. The absence of a political party with such a program that suggested democracy and mass involvement foreclosed any challenge to big business's conception of political intervention.
http://miltenoff.tripod.com/Kolko.html

The endorsers of anticompetitive legislation in the U.S. have always maintained the pretense that these things are being done for the benefit of the consumer, but in actual fact they are in most cases driven by Big Business seeking to keep small business upstarts from getting too big for their britches.
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Re: Who's behind the Voter ID movement?

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:33 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
john9blue wrote:ITT people think that anti-free market politics qualify as "right-wing"...?

As indeed they do.

Preservation of power in the hands of the few has always been the central organising theme of conservatism, and the free market with its limitless potential for the workers to rise up and create their own destiny is anathema to conservatism.

Mercantilism versus laissez-faire. The right wing may make dishonest noises about supporting the free market, but in actual fact always lines up on the side of restraint of trade and mercantilism.

The very terms "left wing" and "right wing" date to the French Revolution, where the ruling classes in favour of preserving their Royal Monopolies lined up on the right side of the Estates, and the bourgeoisie looking for the right to compete in a free market lined up on the left.

The lines between liberal and conservative impulses became more clearly defined in 19th Century England. Conservatives organised around the idea of preserving the power of inherited wealth through protectionist measures like the infamous Corn Laws. A brief introduction:
The Corn Laws were trade laws designed to protect cereal producers in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland against competition from less expensive foreign imports between 1815 and 1846.[1] More simply, to ensure that British landowners reaped all the financial profits from farming, the corn laws (which imposed steep import duties) made it too expensive for anyone to import grain from other countries, even when the people of Great Britain and Ireland needed the food (as in times of famine).

The laws were introduced by the Importation Act 1815 (55 Geo. 3 c. 26) and repealed by the Importation Act 1846 (9 & 10 Vict. c. 22). These laws are often considered as examples of British mercantilism.[2]

The economic issue, in essence, was food prices; the price of grain was central to the price of the most important food staple, bread, and the working man spent much of his wages on bread.

The political issue was a dispute between landowners (a long-established class, who were heavily represented in Parliament) and the new class of manufacturers and industrialists (who were not): the former desired to maximise their profits from agriculture, by keeping the price at which they could sell their grain high; the latter wished to maximise their profits from manufacture, by reducing the wages they paid to their factory workers -- the difficulty being that men could not work in the factories if a factory wage was not enough to feed them and their families; hence, in practice, high grain prices kept factory wages high also.

The Corn Laws enhanced the profits and political power associated with land ownership; their abolition was a significant increase of free trade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_Laws
The Liberal Party, on the other hand, was born out of the Anti-Corn Law League, an organisation built around the idea of free trade.

The most significant passage from the above, "dispute between landowners (a long-established class, who were heavily represented in Parliament) and the new class of manufacturers and industrialists (who were not)" gets to the root of the problem. The right wing was composed of those who were wealthy through their inheritance of land (the essential immorality of land claims that can in all cases be traced back to bandits who seized land from others at the point of a sword is a larger issue which I'll leave for another day) and felt that it was the natural order of things that they should remain at the top of the economic pyramid in perpetuity. The radicals were the free market manufacturers and merchants who felt, essentially, that current production and not ancient expropriations should be the determiners of wealth.

In the modern U.S. we see much the same thing playing out. The right wing is always first to trumpet protectionist tariffs (to protect yesterday's producers from being threatened by today's producers), anticompetitive measures of every sort, such as barriers to market entry, mandatory membership in various cartels, etc, etc.

Gabriel Kolko brilliantly summarises this in The Triumph of Conservatism:
According to Kolko, major American businesses not only did not oppose many of the regulatory acts from 1900 through 1916 but actively sought and supported many reforms and regulations. The effect of government and big business actions was the creation of 'political capitalism,' "an utilization of political outlets to attain stability and rationalization in the economy."(3) In the extended introduction, Kolko elaborates further on his terminology, formulates main questions, clarifies methods, and states his theoretical sources, before commencing his interpretation of the 1890-1920 period. Kolko summarizes an enormous amount of compelling ideas and data. The ability to present in comprehensive form his summary and conclusions to the reader is one of the main merits of his book.

Kolko's analysis is based on the correspondence between businesses and government agencies and on papers of various government officials, including presidents. The author meticulously follows the evolution of the largest American monopolies and mergers, the changes in financial capitalism, and the relation of American presidents from McKinley to Wilson toward big business. The merger movement and the financial structure of the United States became "a matter for the combined resources of the national state, a political, rather than economic matter."(146) The legacy of reform, initiated by Theodore Roosevelt, had at the time of William Howard Taft ambiguous character, reflecting the very nature of progressivism.(159) The creation of the Federal Trade Commission and Trust Legislation in 1913 confirmed that progressivism was in fact a conservative movement and that the Democrat Wilson continued the policy of his Republican predecessors.(205) Wilsonian policies marked the triumph of political capitalism, the synthesis of policies and economies.(279) Businessmen were the major initiators of federal intervention in the economy. The absence of a political party with such a program that suggested democracy and mass involvement foreclosed any challenge to big business's conception of political intervention.
http://miltenoff.tripod.com/Kolko.html

The endorsers of anticompetitive legislation in the U.S. have always maintained the pretense that these things are being done for the benefit of the consumer, but in actual fact they are in most cases driven by Big Business seeking to keep small business upstarts from getting too big for their britches.


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