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Re: Worst game settings

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:55 pm

swimmerdude99 wrote:You think one thing and any person who has spent time playing freestyle will think another. I'm pretty sure anyone who actually PLAYS. by that I mean knows how to win against anyone decent, would admit that freestyle speed takes a BUTTload mor skill than any other game type. I would consider myself wellversed in all game types and I know for a fact that freestyle speed is the hardest to learn and the hardest to master. Anyone can play sequential, Freestyle just takes more thinking on your feet, reaction timing etc. You don't have to go "OH CRAP... he just did that! now what?" and save your butt in sequential. In freestyle ist the standard strat plus some. Not sure how that could be viewed the other way around.


This is getting somewhere but I think you still need to give me more information.
It stands to reason that you can't possibly think as far in advance in a freestyle game as you can in a sequential game. For instance, in a freestyle game you can think x number of moves ahead whereas in a sequential game you can think x+y number of moves ahead. This is my reasoning.
I suppose I'm not necessarily saying that freestyle is easier/more difficult to master, just that they are not the same types of skills. As you say, freestyle is more "thinking on your feet" but I say that sequential is more deliberate. Again to the chess analogy; one style focuses on fluid/rapid gameplay, the other focuses on a more structured gameplay. I am not denying that freestyle is harder to learn, I know this by experience, I'm just denying that it requires more "skill". I am arguing that it may be just as hard, if not harder to become really good at sequential as it is to become really good at freestyle. Just playing both a lot does not make you an expert at both.
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby rhp 1 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:19 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:You think one thing and any person who has spent time playing freestyle will think another. I'm pretty sure anyone who actually PLAYS. by that I mean knows how to win against anyone decent, would admit that freestyle speed takes a BUTTload mor skill than any other game type. I would consider myself wellversed in all game types and I know for a fact that freestyle speed is the hardest to learn and the hardest to master. Anyone can play sequential, Freestyle just takes more thinking on your feet, reaction timing etc. You don't have to go "OH CRAP... he just did that! now what?" and save your butt in sequential. In freestyle ist the standard strat plus some. Not sure how that could be viewed the other way around.


This is getting somewhere but I think you still need to give me more information.
It stands to reason that you can't possibly think as far in advance in a freestyle game as you can in a sequential game. For instance, in a freestyle game you can think x number of moves ahead whereas in a sequential game you can think x+y number of moves ahead. This is my reasoning.
I suppose I'm not necessarily saying that freestyle is easier/more difficult to master, just that they are not the same types of skills. As you say, freestyle is more "thinking on your feet" but I say that sequential is more deliberate. Again to the chess analogy; one style focuses on fluid/rapid gameplay, the other focuses on a more structured gameplay. I am not denying that freestyle is harder to learn, I know this by experience, I'm just denying that it requires more "skill". I am arguing that it may be just as hard, if not harder to become really good at sequential as it is to become really good at freestyle. Just playing both a lot does not make you an expert at both.


your last sentence is 100% accurate... that said, if you played with/against me in a bunch of seq games, you'd realize I know what I'm doing in seq.. not saying I''m a top seq player, but I generally play quit well... swimmer would probably be a better analog as he plays a lot more seq than I do... I hear you when you talk ab the number of moves you're able to think ahead in seq is much greater than in fs... I think this is a valid point, however, you leave out the fact that you have time to sit and think about those upcoming moves in an amount of time that I see as almost limitless.... In 1 minute seq speeders for example, you have a tremendous amount of time (multiplied by the # of players) to determine your play and have to make basically little to no adjustments (if you can forecast someone else's moves which isn't very difficult most of the time) in almost every round to the strat you wish to carry out.. this runs contrary to fs where you not only have to have a plan, but be willing at a (literally) seconds notice to modify/trash that plan to counter another player/players actions... my point remains the same unfortunately... almost all gameplay strat in seq is used in freestyle (with obvious exceptions) and more skill is required to implement that strat in fs...
I guess the only way I can say it is that you'll never find a top fs player who doesn't have some reasonable ability to play seq at a fairly high level... but you can find 1000's of seq players that have no ability whatsoever to play fs... of course this isn't scientific support for my argument, but it's definitely interesting.. no?
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:48 pm

rhp 1 wrote:your last sentence is 100% accurate... that said, if you played with/against me in a bunch of seq games, you'd realize I know what I'm doing in seq.. not saying I''m a top seq player, but I generally play quit well... swimmer would probably be a better analog as he plays a lot more seq than I do... I hear you when you talk ab the number of moves you're able to think ahead in seq is much greater than in fs... I think this is a valid point, however, you leave out the fact that you have time to sit and think about those upcoming moves in an amount of time that I see as almost limitless.... In 1 minute seq speeders for example, you have a tremendous amount of time (multiplied by the # of players) to determine your play and have to make basically little to no adjustments (if you can forecast someone else's moves which isn't very difficult most of the time) in almost every round to the strat you wish to carry out.. this runs contrary to fs where you not only have to have a plan, but be willing at a (literally) seconds notice to modify/trash that plan to counter another player/players actions... my point remains the same unfortunately... almost all gameplay strat in seq is used in freestyle (with obvious exceptions) and more skill is required to implement that strat in fs...
I guess the only way I can say it is that you'll never find a top fs player who doesn't have some reasonable ability to play seq at a fairly high level... but you can find 1000's of seq players that have no ability whatsoever to play fs... of course this isn't scientific support for my argument, but it's definitely interesting.. no?


I certainly appreciate your contribution towards evidence, it's much more easy to accept. ;)
It is interesting but by no means the end of the discussion from what I can tell. The reason it's not entirely settled from my perspective is that one could argue that freestyle focuses more on the opponents fumblings than pure strategy. When speed is of the essence there is more likelihood of a player not doing what they would have done given more time. Sequential you have more time but so does your opponent which = less "fumbles" overall.
I also believe that the reason 1000's of seq players can't/don't play fs well is because they came to this site to play risk and therefore end up choosing the style of game that is closest to the original game. I think this point may at least bring up reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of the claim? The causal relationship has yet to be proven.
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby rhp 1 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:22 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
rhp 1 wrote:your last sentence is 100% accurate... that said, if you played with/against me in a bunch of seq games, you'd realize I know what I'm doing in seq.. not saying I''m a top seq player, but I generally play quit well... swimmer would probably be a better analog as he plays a lot more seq than I do... I hear you when you talk ab the number of moves you're able to think ahead in seq is much greater than in fs... I think this is a valid point, however, you leave out the fact that you have time to sit and think about those upcoming moves in an amount of time that I see as almost limitless.... In 1 minute seq speeders for example, you have a tremendous amount of time (multiplied by the # of players) to determine your play and have to make basically little to no adjustments (if you can forecast someone else's moves which isn't very difficult most of the time) in almost every round to the strat you wish to carry out.. this runs contrary to fs where you not only have to have a plan, but be willing at a (literally) seconds notice to modify/trash that plan to counter another player/players actions... my point remains the same unfortunately... almost all gameplay strat in seq is used in freestyle (with obvious exceptions) and more skill is required to implement that strat in fs...
I guess the only way I can say it is that you'll never find a top fs player who doesn't have some reasonable ability to play seq at a fairly high level... but you can find 1000's of seq players that have no ability whatsoever to play fs... of course this isn't scientific support for my argument, but it's definitely interesting.. no?


I certainly appreciate your contribution towards evidence, it's much more easy to accept. ;)
It is interesting but by no means the end of the discussion from what I can tell. The reason it's not entirely settled from my perspective is that one could argue that freestyle focuses more on the opponents fumblings than pure strategy. When speed is of the essence there is more likelihood of a player not doing what they would have done given more time. Sequential you have more time but so does your opponent which = less "fumbles" overall.
I also believe that the reason 1000's of seq players can't/don't play fs well is because they came to this site to play risk and therefore end up choosing the style of game that is closest to the original game. I think this point may at least bring up reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of the claim? The causal relationship has yet to be proven.




again.. your last 2 lines are accurate, and I said so in my quote my last wasn't scientific by any means. I'm not sure if your reasoning as to why people don't play fs is valid though... I think it's just easier to play sequential (from a standpoint of not loading any add-ons and not learning a different type of gameplay) but that doesn't make my point any less valid... it's simply easier in almost every way to play seq and, in my opinion, easier to become proficient at seq... it doesn't take a substantial amount of games to become a fairly decent seq player (save many hopelessly bad players).. the learning curve is fast... the same can't be said for fs... i can't imagine someone starting on this site playing only freestyle (as most play only seq for a long period of time less a mistakenly joined fs game)... they would not only have to learn basic strat (seq) but all of the additional strat and skills needed to be proficient at fs... my only wish is that you play a lot of fs games to have a more informed opinion... but since this is unlikely to happen, I think at this point, we'll have to agree to disagree... but a fun conversation... ty
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:36 pm

Fair enough. :D
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby swimmerdude99 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:16 am

I'll put one quick last word in, and that is that "fumbles" indicate to me a failure of focus and skill to KNOW what you need to do. if you KNOW what you need to do you're going to take the action necessary at all times. The "fumbles" you mentioned to me are people who just can't think on their feet. The analogy of a hard math problem comes to mind. You are playing a game and in 24 hour games you have minutes to hours to plan (if you are insane :P) and you have that much time with no variables changing. However in speed freestyle you have 1 minute (or whatever time limit) to play your turn ALONG with watching all the actions of the other players all at the same time. Its like doing the same type of complicated math problem, but now the variables change every 2 minutes if you don't complete it. So you have 100 people who could solve the problem, but it may take them up to a week to solve it. But you have an expert mathematician who solves it in a few minutes.

Thats kinda how I view it. Its similar gameplay but just harder to play freestyle cause you can't just take your old time, and all the variables are constantly changing on you.
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:28 am

swimmerdude99 wrote:I'll put one quick last word in, and that is that "fumbles" indicate to me a failure of focus and skill to KNOW what you need to do. if you KNOW what you need to do you're going to take the action necessary at all times. The "fumbles" you mentioned to me are people who just can't think on their feet. The analogy of a hard math problem comes to mind. You are playing a game and in 24 hour games you have minutes to hours to plan (if you are insane :P) and you have that much time with no variables changing. However in speed freestyle you have 1 minute (or whatever time limit) to play your turn ALONG with watching all the actions of the other players all at the same time. Its like doing the same type of complicated math problem, but now the variables change every 2 minutes if you don't complete it. So you have 100 people who could solve the problem, but it may take them up to a week to solve it. But you have an expert mathematician who solves it in a few minutes.

Thats kinda how I view it. Its similar gameplay but just harder to play freestyle cause you can't just take your old time, and all the variables are constantly changing on you.


But you are speaking now of freestyle speed games but I wasn't sure we were discussing those in particular? I was under the impression that we were talking about fs vs. sequential and that crucial time where both players are turning more or less simultaneously.
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby rhp 1 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:40 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:I'll put one quick last word in, and that is that "fumbles" indicate to me a failure of focus and skill to KNOW what you need to do. if you KNOW what you need to do you're going to take the action necessary at all times. The "fumbles" you mentioned to me are people who just can't think on their feet. The analogy of a hard math problem comes to mind. You are playing a game and in 24 hour games you have minutes to hours to plan (if you are insane :P) and you have that much time with no variables changing. However in speed freestyle you have 1 minute (or whatever time limit) to play your turn ALONG with watching all the actions of the other players all at the same time. Its like doing the same type of complicated math problem, but now the variables change every 2 minutes if you don't complete it. So you have 100 people who could solve the problem, but it may take them up to a week to solve it. But you have an expert mathematician who solves it in a few minutes.

Thats kinda how I view it. Its similar gameplay but just harder to play freestyle cause you can't just take your old time, and all the variables are constantly changing on you.


But you are speaking now of freestyle speed games but I wasn't sure we were discussing those in particular? I was under the impression that we were talking about fs vs. sequential and that crucial time where both players are turning more or less simultaneously.



oh wow... fs casual is a farming setting... if that's what you were referring to all along then... well... you win... swimmy and I (I'm pretty sure, though I don't mean to speak for you Swim) were always talking about speed fs... to put the fs setting on a casual game is like fucking through a sheet... there may be a place for it for some individuals, but I sure as hell don't get it..
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby swimmerdude99 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:33 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:I'll put one quick last word in, and that is that "fumbles" indicate to me a failure of focus and skill to KNOW what you need to do. if you KNOW what you need to do you're going to take the action necessary at all times. The "fumbles" you mentioned to me are people who just can't think on their feet. The analogy of a hard math problem comes to mind. You are playing a game and in 24 hour games you have minutes to hours to plan (if you are insane :P) and you have that much time with no variables changing. However in speed freestyle you have 1 minute (or whatever time limit) to play your turn ALONG with watching all the actions of the other players all at the same time. Its like doing the same type of complicated math problem, but now the variables change every 2 minutes if you don't complete it. So you have 100 people who could solve the problem, but it may take them up to a week to solve it. But you have an expert mathematician who solves it in a few minutes.

Thats kinda how I view it. Its similar gameplay but just harder to play freestyle cause you can't just take your old time, and all the variables are constantly changing on you.


But you are speaking now of freestyle speed games but I wasn't sure we were discussing those in particular? I was under the impression that we were talking about fs vs. sequential and that crucial time where both players are turning more or less simultaneously.


Oh heck no, that doesn't involve as much brain power as Speed freestyle. Casual freestyle is just who is on the site 24/7.
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby coyotemojo on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:44 pm

What's wrong with farming? Is there some rule stating experienced players must not play games with inexperienced players?

At some point, even fs vets were rookies. In my opinion, the best way to learn games like this is by playing an accomplished player who is playing to win. After a few games the rookie should get seasoned and start to hold their own, not fall into the same traps, and/or make the same dumb mistakes.
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby swimmerdude99 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:49 pm

coyotemojo wrote:At some point, even fs vets were rookies. In my opinion, the best way to learn games like this is by playing an accomplished player who is playing to win. After a few games the rookie should get seasoned and start to hold their own, not fall into the same traps, and/or make the same dumb mistakes.

This I agree with, the first part... farming is TARGETTING inexperienced players, thats not cool.
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby coyotemojo on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:57 pm

I don't farm, personally. Just seemed like the earlier posts were trying to discredit experienced players playing inexperienced players. Seems difficult to "target" players anyway. Unless you invite them in to play, you have no control over who signs up for your game. And even then, it's not like you can hide your rank. Shouldn't take but a game or two to know/understand rank.
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby ZeekLTK on Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:58 am

I guess the only way I can say it is that you'll never find a top fs player who doesn't have some reasonable ability to play seq at a fairly high level... but you can find 1000's of seq players that have no ability whatsoever to play fs... of course this isn't scientific support for my argument, but it's definitely interesting.. no?


I think that's because EVERYONE starts out as a sequential player and then some choose to also learn to play freestyle while many do not. So of course all FS players are going to be good SEQ players, that's what they started as.

Is there anyone who came to this site without being well versed in Risk (a sequential game) and just started playing freestyle without bothering to play sequential? Seems very unlikely. Instead, everyone here enjoyed playing Risk, found an online version, and either continued to play "normal" (sequential) or branched out to other versions (freestyle).

If we are making analogies, it's like in sports - everyone might play soccer (for example) when they are younger. Then at some point, some people decide to play basketball instead. They still have their soccer fundamentals that they picked up, meaning they can continue to play soccer decently, but they've now developed skills at basketball as well. Meanwhile, the guys who continued to play soccer ONLY are very good soccer players, but they don't know how to play basketball. It doesn't mean basketball is any harder or that people who play basketball are better athletes than soccer players, it's just that EVERYONE (in this example) has soccer skills and only some people chose to develop basketball skills.

That's the same thing here. EVERYONE started out with sequential (original Risk), and only some learned freestyle.

I think if you could find a group of people who had NEVER played Risk (or similar sequential games) before and taught them how to play ONLY freestyle, and then eventually had them try to play a sequential game they would be just as bad at that as the "average" sequential player is at freestyle - because they wouldn't have the skills of predicting/planning for long term moves and whatnot, they would only know how to react and would get buried by players who have those abilities (aka most sequential players). But finding such a group of people to test that seems unlikely.
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby Gabriel13 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:05 am

ZeekLTK wrote:
I guess the only way I can say it is that you'll never find a top fs player who doesn't have some reasonable ability to play seq at a fairly high level... but you can find 1000's of seq players that have no ability whatsoever to play fs... of course this isn't scientific support for my argument, but it's definitely interesting.. no?


I think that's because EVERYONE starts out as a sequential player and then some choose to also learn to play freestyle while many do not. So of course all FS players are going to be good SEQ players, that's what they started as.

Is there anyone who came to this site without being well versed in Risk (a sequential game) and just started playing freestyle without bothering to play sequential? Seems very unlikely. Instead, everyone here enjoyed playing Risk, found an online version, and either continued to play "normal" (sequential) or branched out to other versions (freestyle).

If we are making analogies, it's like in sports - everyone might play soccer (for example) when they are younger. Then at some point, some people decide to play basketball instead. They still have their soccer fundamentals that they picked up, meaning they can continue to play soccer decently, but they've now developed skills at basketball as well. Meanwhile, the guys who continued to play soccer ONLY are very good soccer players, but they don't know how to play basketball. It doesn't mean basketball is any harder or that people who play basketball are better athletes than soccer players, it's just that EVERYONE (in this example) has soccer skills and only some people chose to develop basketball skills.

That's the same thing here. EVERYONE started out with sequential (original Risk), and only some learned freestyle.

I think if you could find a group of people who had NEVER played Risk (or similar sequential games) before and taught them how to play ONLY freestyle, and then eventually had them try to play a sequential game they would be just as bad at that as the "average" sequential player is at freestyle - because they wouldn't have the skills of predicting/planning for long term moves and whatnot, they would only know how to react and would get buried by players who have those abilities (aka most sequential players). But finding such a group of people to test that seems unlikely.


I agree with the basketball soccer part, but the second part is not true at all.. I think any person who went from playing FS to playing seq would easily know how to play it. I am one of the few that started playing fs when I began this site. It only took until I received my premium.
(And too all the other people) Speed fs players are the most skilled on this site, as they can make moves in meer seconds, and can make plans as to what they are going to do as fast as they can. Connection speed doesn't count for shit. I have an extremely fast connection, and I have played on an even slower connection. Think about it this way.. Fast connection players can go from territory to territory in a second, sometimes less, but slow connection players can do this without making ANY mistakes. I personally think the fast connection is better for me, because I'm impatient, but some people don't like to make mistakes. Therefore, SPEED fs (MORE THAN 2 PLAYERS) takes more skill, while regular fs just means staying on the site all day.It's pretty much seq if neither of the players is on all day.
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Re: Worst game settings

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:20 am

Worst Game Settings:

Playing on LandGrab.

It is a piece of Grabastic amphibian...
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