gregwolf121 wrote:chapcrap wrote:When can a case not be made against VS?
Ok, I'll share my info because no one else is willing and I feel like it will help. What I know is that on the last lynch, 4 were anti-town. That is why edoc had to post the vote count, because I needed him to for the information. Here is the VC:
edocsil wrote:For various reasons a final VC from yesterday was requested.
Jak (5) ~ shaggy, pcm, cm5, Sam, gregwolf
Vodean (1) ~ lsu
Iliad (2) ~ /, Fifth
gregwolf (12) ~ Saf, jonty, soundman, violet, aage, JG, Nag, DRoZ jak, ???, Strike, Vodean
So, the part about I am wondering about is the ??? vote. Either way, I think it's valuable to get that information on a group of players. So, I'll be sharing.
so while reading what happened while i was dead and i decided to put my two cents in on it
but first a question f1fth and hensow had voted for me and i wonder why they arn't on the list
but as to my suspicions out of the list i suspect vodean, strike, aage, and jonty aage and jonty didn't give much reason to vote me, as to strike and vodean, because before i claimed they weren't big on lynching me and it seems to me that voted me because im their enemy, of course i could be wrong but ill
vote vodean as he seems the most scummy to me
If you really want to get technical, you should really note that I've been hesitant to vote in general. Not just this game but all my recent games.
Next my case on Aage. I take you back to day 1:
strike wolf wrote:Slight FOS Aage just because he didn't fact check the no lynch rule when allowing people to vote no lynch is the norm in games. Not really worth putting weight behind but just seems like that should be the first reaction to check if hte vote was just missed or if it was a rule, not to assume that it was a rule because it wasn't counted.
aage wrote:strike wolf wrote:Slight FOS Aage just because he didn't fact check the no lynch rule when allowing people to vote no lynch is the norm in games. Not really worth putting weight behind but just seems like that should be the first reaction to check if hte vote was just missed or if it was a rule, not to assume that it was a rule because it wasn't counted.
I did check the rules before posting, I guess I simply missed it. Neither did I know Edoc was using a program to count our votes, which would explain why he missed the vote that was two posts or so above his count. I had noticed that Hensow's no-lynch vote wasn't counted, I figured it needed to be mentioned. I guess that was my mistake.
Post and reaction test. The case at this point would be what we would call weak sauce. Just kind of an odd reaction, to assume that no lynch votes are not counted because you don't see a rule stating that they are when in fact voting no lynch is fairly standard. What it really sets up is a bit of a pattern (cutting parts of posts that are unnecessary to case):
jak111 wrote:aage wrote:If you don't block votes, explain how you knew about Victor missing his vote two pages before Victor confirmed that?
You.. are sooo far behind bud.. It's been confirmed that I stole his vote.
Jak really proves all I need to say on this one.
aage wrote:ChapCrap, why would his role not be confirmed? I thought Edocsil posted a vote count with "victor - ???" in it right after Iliad cast his supposed second vote. In the off chance someone else set it up, we can still deduce that there is a double voter and a vote stealer. Since Iliad claims to have lost his anonymous vote, there is no way he can prove that he cannot cast it.
aage wrote:/ wrote:Why do you assume it was the secret vote stolen, strike? I don't believe that was ever confirmed.
Maybe because that's what Iliad said happened?
Admittedly I was mistaken on this one as well but it was never shown by Iliad that it was his anonymous vote that was missing.
aage wrote:chapcrap wrote:aage wrote:chapcrap wrote:aage wrote:Personally I believe that Jak was the one casting the vote, therefore we should assume Jak's alignment is what matters.
Secondly, Jak, you struck VioIet off the list immediately. Why?
No, jak's alignment doesn't really matter. What matters is whether both votes count for him or one counts for VS. Either way, jak's alignment doesn't matter. All that matters is whether or not we need to include VS in the list. My inclination is no because he isn't the one who voted.
Yeah, that is what I said. And because of that we shouldn't care about VS's alignment, but Jak's. If he is scum that would mean he casted 2 of those 4 votes... or at least, that's what I assumed.
You never said whether 4 votes or 4 players on the last lynch were anti-town.
Yes I did. I specifically addressed that. Skimmer.
Sorry, I largely ignored the part that wasn't addressed to me. You're right, and I agree. Still, weird response from edoc. Did you ask a question?
The bolded was addressed as Chap said. Admitted skimming in the next post.
So we have a pattern of misconstrued or inaccurate information.
Next on the list, bandwagon jump:
aage wrote:unvote vote greg
Shameless bandwagon jump...well maybe he has reason for it, posted in a different post...
aage wrote:strike wolf wrote:YaY! Annoying orange text.
I hope Saf will reply in yellow.
umm not there...
Next:
I am sorry if this makes my post longer than it needs to be but I want people to read all of my points before seeing Aage's counter rebuttal in the next post:
strike wolf wrote:First off
Vote AageSecond, explanation:
aage wrote:Mr. Squirrel wrote:I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?
I'm going to wait for Vio. As for Vodean's point, the scene seems to imply that the demons and angels are two seperate groups, but angels sound like they're town aligned and therefore rarely form a night talk team. Your theory reminds me of Briarsburg's Doctor Foundation, where 5 people had all the doc roles and could communicate with each other, but I doubt all angels are doctors.
As for outing angels, I think the angels are the only real threat to the demons as humans can't really do anything against them, story-meta-wise. I've read Faustus last week and it made me think of this game (and I wouldn't be surprised if that role was actually in it) but my point is that it might be that kind of situation. Angels and demons trying to win human souls for their own team. That might be the cultish reference we have been looking at. This is just hypothetical, theorycrafting if you will. Might even mean that no-one has a night kill which could explain why no-one died, but that game mechanic is so far from the standard mafia that I doubt Edoc has included it.
Then again, I might also be an angel (or even a demon) making this stuff up or paraphrasing my role PM, but this is what I think the game looks like. Remember the opening statements, "The players who have done the best will be able to choose their own faction" and "There will be some unique roles in this game, and it is certainly no vanilla". This doesn't
prove anything, but I think the key to winning the game is figuring out the mechanics of the factions involved.
This post to me suggests that he is not an angel.
aage wrote:For the purposes of the theme I'm going to take a pot shot that we're playing in Roman Catholic mythology (although mythology isn't
that different between Christians, and mostly depends on the age you're in rather than which communion you're part of) and the wikipedia page on Saints says this:
The Catholic Church teaches that it does not, in fact, make or create saints. Rather, it recognizes them.[27] In the Church, the title of Saint refers to a person who has been formally canonized (officially recognized) by the Catholic Church, and is therefore believed to be in Heaven.
As you can see, they're clearly referring to a person. The paragraph on Eastern Orthodoxy even goes as far as this:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".
Angels aren't given the "saint"-title so I deduce that only humans in Heaven are saints according to the EO Church, not angels. That shouldn't really matter, though, since people who are in heaven are by definition town aligned.
Jak, you're claiming William of York as angel? He was Archbishop and saint... A human. I kind of doubt that humans would be elevated to angelic status, but I'll accept the claim for now. Care to tell us what your role is, or is that classified information?
This post seems to confirm that he is not an angel and that he isn't a saint (his posts about Saints suggest he is unsure about what they qualify as in the game. If he was one than he should not have such questions and it most definitely suggests that he's not an angel as he should know whether angels got the saint title or not if he was).
Finally:
aage wrote:nagerous wrote:jak111 wrote:Now we are left with 9 to pressure for claims, even if I'm wrong, Violet has the benefit of doubt from me unless proven otherwise from a pr. So the list is down to 8 from my pov. Of these 8, I really think the next two best targets (and lately very scummy after 4 are mentioned to be non town on the list and the list got smaller just from me posting).
In my opinion these two have no real reason to fear if they are town because there's 5 town of the 9 left. But the fact that they seem to be panicking as of late, FOS Vodean and Jonty
Unvote DRoZ, Vote Vodean
Time to start spicing things up and get the kettle boiling until we hit the gold at the bottom.
In essence, slow advocation of a mass claim? Sure mass claims work, but they are also game ruiners in many a case - also never forget that scum gain just as much 'valuable' information as the town do on roles.
I would complain about the lack of length of your post if you weren't right. A mass claim on day 3 probably isn't going to yield anything either, btw... in a flavor high game like this I have no doubt scum is packed with false claims. We would just be providing scum with 5 town roles. Besides, it seems easy for Jak to say this since he already put all his cards on the table for reasons unknown very early;
he has nothing to lose.
vodean wrote:aage wrote:lmfao... Okay Vodean, your last three posts.
sounds like it should work out well.
there wasn't (nor isn't) even a plan yet, so I find it interesting that you already know that it will work out.
thats all well and good, but there were FOUR, not THREE anti-town on the BW. so even if you lynch all of us, and we ALL flip anti-town, you are still missing someone... and by then scum has an advantage anyway from the night, since we wont all flip anti-town, and even if we do, there will be some third parties.
Aside from the fact that f1fth said 'those people are most likely to be mafia' rather than 'these are all the scum in the group guys', this is a useless remark.
or you are scum, with info about a fellow scum that you are using to try and make us forget about you before we BW you too much
Yeah... who are you implying to be scum here, me or Sam? If Sam, that'd be
very poor teamplay. If me, he could have never known who targeted me especially since I wasn't even aware of it.
FoS.
you are clearly skimming really badly... that was obviously directed to Droz, and the first one was right after someone posted a plan. The second one was a useless rebuttal to a useless argument.
It was directed a Droz alright, but the only way he could have gained that information is if either Sam (the watcher) or me (the watchee) were scum. Therefore I was wondering how you thought your conspiracy theory worked out, and found that it didn't. The plan you responded to was only /'s notion that we should have one. There isn't even one now. Your useless rebuttal indeed seems useless since you try to disprove a theory with irrelevant math. No skimming here.
As to you panicking, haven't seen that. The reply you gave which I responded to now seems fine. Nothing wrong with a wild skim accusation.
@Blake
It appears that violet has made a reference to her win condition (probably here) which swayed Jak... although it seems kind of obvious that town will win if all demons are eliminated.
The last part in particular. He assumes but isn't sure? I am not sure about the rest of you but I see fairly clear evidence that Aage is not an angel, he certainly appears not to be town aligned human (I am still unsure to the exact break down on how humans are in this game) so if you aren't an angel and you aren't town aligned. Then you must be scum.
As far as Jonty, I'm not completely convinced but his latest defense is fine with me so I am not going to pursue for now.
aage wrote:I believe I'm on the wrong list so I'm not supposed to vote anyone, correct?
strike wolf wrote:aage wrote:As for Vodean's point, the scene seems to imply that the demons and angels are two seperate groups, but angels sound like they're town aligned and therefore rarely form a night talk team. Your theory reminds me of Briarsburg's Doctor Foundation, where 5 people had all the doc roles and could communicate with each other, but I doubt all angels are doctors.
As for outing angels, I think the angels are the only real threat to the demons as humans can't really do anything against them, story-meta-wise. I've read Faustus last week and it made me think of this game (and I wouldn't be surprised if that role was actually in it) but my point is that it might be that kind of situation. Angels and demons trying to win human souls for their own team. That might be the cultish reference we have been looking at. This is just hypothetical, theorycrafting if you will. Might even mean that no-one has a night kill which could explain why no-one died, but that game mechanic is so far from the standard mafia that I doubt Edoc has included it.
Then again, I might also be an angel (or even a demon) making this stuff up or paraphrasing my role PM, but this is what I think the game looks like. Remember the opening statements, "The players who have done the best will be able to choose their own faction" and "There will be some unique roles in this game, and it is certainly no vanilla". This doesn't prove anything, but I think the key to winning the game is figuring out the mechanics of the factions involved.
This post to me suggests that he is not an angel.
I personally doubt there are many of those, actually. Seven arch angels tops, anyway, and the RCC only recognizes three of those by name. 'Fortunately', however, two of them already died who were not part of those three, so I think we can safely assume seven. Then, as far as I know, all claimed power roles so far are humans (and sometimes dead ones, in which case they are saints). Saying someone isn't an angel isn't as good an argument as you seem to think it is. Hence why I said that figuring the mechanics out is important, and I've been spending most of my time doing that. Obviously all the non-claimed players haven't said anything about their role, but I assume they want us to believe they're angels because those are definitely town and that would keep one out of the lynching spotlight for a little longer. Make no mistakes, though. There are only five more angels in this game if I'm not mistaken.
Kind of out of context. As the full post was designed to prove, It's not so much about you not being an angel. It was more about you not being a human or an angel.
aage wrote:strike wolf wrote:aage wrote:For the purposes of the theme I'm going to take a pot shot that we're playing in Roman Catholic mythology (although mythology isn't
that different between Christians, and mostly depends on the age you're in rather than which communion you're part of) and the wikipedia page on Saints says this:
The Catholic Church teaches that it does not, in fact, make or create saints. Rather, it recognizes them.[27] In the Church, the title of Saint refers to a person who has been formally canonized (officially recognized) by the Catholic Church, and is therefore believed to be in Heaven.
As you can see, they're clearly referring to a person. The paragraph on Eastern Orthodoxy even goes as far as this:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church a saint is defined as anyone who is in Heaven, whether recognized here on earth, or not.[4] By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".
Angels aren't given the "saint"-title so I deduce that only humans in Heaven are saints according to the EO Church, not angels. That shouldn't really matter, though, since people who are in heaven are by definition town aligned.
Jak, you're claiming William of York as angel? He was Archbishop and saint... A human. I kind of doubt that humans would be elevated to angelic status, but I'll accept the claim for now. Care to tell us what your role is, or is that classified information?
This post seems to confirm that he is not an angel and that he isn't a saint (his posts about Saints suggest he is unsure about what they qualify as in the game. If he was one than he should not have such questions and it most definitely suggests that he's not an angel as he should know whether angels got the saint title or not if he was).
First off, in a large game as this I should never let my own role flavor influence my judgment of others. Secondly, obviously I'm not going to share what I think about my own role when I think Jak made a poor move claiming.
It simply isn't correct according to most
webinfo I found that one could be a human, a saint and an angel at the same time, which I even quoted in that same quote you're responding to now: the bit where everyone except (arch)angels are called Saints. That is EOC though, so possibly irrelevant in this game. There are mentions of several "categories" of angels in the RCC article, but seeing there are already so many claimed humans leads me to believe those categories aren't in this game. Yes, I also am not part of any of these categories. I'll gladly admit that I would have never said that on day 1 because I know a lot more about the game now than I did back then. Back then, anything would've been possible and town could've been almost entirely made up of angels (although there'd be the problem of the lack of unknown angelic names), so claiming human would be an anomaly as we saw with Iliad. Right now, I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of angels,
and I'm also pretty sure that it's a bad idea to claim that you are angel since scum has only been eliminating arch angels so far. It seems they don't like them.
The bolded is a BIG conclusion jump. There was one non-lynch death at this point in the game. There's still only one death due to mafia (directly). I would agree that mafia would mostly target arch angels but Aage isn't suggesting that they would here, he's suggesting that they have. Do you know something we don't Aage? How do you know that mafia knew that LSU was an archangel. Couldn't it have been possible that they simply lynched him based on him voting Vodean? For scum to either be framing Vodean or vodean acting as scum to eliminate someone who was suspicious of him? Or even that LSU was targeted because he was an experienced player? Unless you have inside knowledge on the mafia which I believe you do. You shouldn't know this.
I can actually somewhat accept your point about not giving up your exact role specifically (I have to admit that I have to one extent or another behaved similarly in that regard).
aage wrote:strike wolf wrote:Finally:
aage wrote:@Blake
It appears that violet has made a reference to her win condition (probably here) which swayed Jak... although it seems kind of obvious that town will win if all demons are eliminated.
The last part in particular. He assumes but isn't sure? I am not sure about the rest of you but I see fairly clear evidence that Aage is not an angel, he certainly appears not to be town aligned human (I am still unsure to the exact break down on how humans are in this game) so if you aren't an angel and you aren't town aligned. Then you must be scum.
Why would you say I'm not aligned with town? Because I doubt Violet's clearance?Actually she got the win condition right in that post of hers. I'm simply saying it doesn't prove anything. Any scum can guess town win condition. "Kill all the non town people to win." "Demons probably aren't town." How hard was that?
Hence my disbelief, and hence this remark.
I hope this suffices as explanation. Anything else?
It was the uncertainty and it definitely does appear that you aren't really completely aware in this post:
aage wrote:I think it should be mentioned that we shouldn't disregard the possibility that humans and angels have different win conditions, since if the subvert-thing is in the angel role pm but not in the human role pm. It's not in my role pm anyway, I found out about it through Lsu's and jgordon's posts, so I suppose it is also not in Jak's (or violet's, or other claimed humans') role pms.
All of that is not relevant if Jak is lying about his night actions, though. jgordon, you'll have to tell us at least what you found out last night, or you should claim a role/name because at the moment we have only your word for it. Jak is correct to say that you should claim what you know and(/or) what you are before anyone can judge.
While you claim fairly accurately to have the human WC, you show a lot of uncertainty about the specifics.
BTW
