The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:08 pm

maasman wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:Yes, idolize the robber barons who held monopolizes, exploited workers and the government for profit. One of the reasons we are in the mess we are in.


....and also vastly improved Nola's Life, and every person Nola knows life as well.....

"BASTARDS!"

Are you not grateful for Rockefeller, Carnegie, Edison, Morgan, Tesla, Westinghouse, Vanderbilt, Ford?



Tesla got fucked over by Edison. Edison was a terrible person and a thug like the rest of them. Why would I be grateful for what they have done?


What is the difference between the way Edison treated Tesla, and the way you treat me?

Do you think Tesla would have been Tesla without being Edison's apprentice, IE teaching him everything he knows??

Do you think Tesla would be Tesla if JP Morgan had not invested billions in Thomas Edison?

Do you think Tesla would be Tesla if there was no free market or no America or Capitalist system that is capable of raising and investing billions of dollars into anything?


From what I know about Tesla, then that is a definitive yes to all of those questions.


Where did Tesla get all his investments? Where did his main investors get the money to invest in the first place? How did they get enough money? Not tearing Tesla down, he was a genius. But I don't think he did very much unless he was directly under Edison, Westonghouse, or JP Morgan... Perhaps later in life?

I would be interested in more information. I bet you know a lot more about him
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Metsfanmax on Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:11 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
maasman wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:Yes, idolize the robber barons who held monopolizes, exploited workers and the government for profit. One of the reasons we are in the mess we are in.


....and also vastly improved Nola's Life, and every person Nola knows life as well.....

"BASTARDS!"

Are you not grateful for Rockefeller, Carnegie, Edison, Morgan, Tesla, Westinghouse, Vanderbilt, Ford?



Tesla got fucked over by Edison. Edison was a terrible person and a thug like the rest of them. Why would I be grateful for what they have done?


What is the difference between the way Edison treated Tesla, and the way you treat me?

Do you think Tesla would have been Tesla without being Edison's apprentice, IE teaching him everything he knows??

Do you think Tesla would be Tesla if JP Morgan had not invested billions in Thomas Edison?

Do you think Tesla would be Tesla if there was no free market or no America or Capitalist system that is capable of raising and investing billions of dollars into anything?


From what I know about Tesla, then that is a definitive yes to all of those questions.


Where did Tesla get all his investments? Where did his main investors get the money to invest in the first place? How did they get enough money? Not tearing Tesla down, he was a genius. But I don't think he did very much unless he was directly under Edison, Westonghouse, or JP Morgan... Perhaps later in life?

I would be interested in more information. I bet you know a lot more about him


http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:45 pm

I could have googled it myself. I wanted to talk about it with you guys (not the ones that have to google it tho)
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby MegaProphet on Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:34 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
maasman wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Nola_Lifer wrote:Yes, idolize the robber barons who held monopolizes, exploited workers and the government for profit. One of the reasons we are in the mess we are in.


....and also vastly improved Nola's Life, and every person Nola knows life as well.....

"BASTARDS!"

Are you not grateful for Rockefeller, Carnegie, Edison, Morgan, Tesla, Westinghouse, Vanderbilt, Ford?



Tesla got fucked over by Edison. Edison was a terrible person and a thug like the rest of them. Why would I be grateful for what they have done?


What is the difference between the way Edison treated Tesla, and the way you treat me?

Do you think Tesla would have been Tesla without being Edison's apprentice, IE teaching him everything he knows??

Do you think Tesla would be Tesla if JP Morgan had not invested billions in Thomas Edison?

Do you think Tesla would be Tesla if there was no free market or no America or Capitalist system that is capable of raising and investing billions of dollars into anything?


From what I know about Tesla, then that is a definitive yes to all of those questions.


Where did Tesla get all his investments? Where did his main investors get the money to invest in the first place? How did they get enough money? Not tearing Tesla down, he was a genius. But I don't think he did very much unless he was directly under Edison, Westonghouse, or JP Morgan... Perhaps later in life?

I would be interested in more information. I bet you know a lot more about him

Tesla was able to relocate to the US due to working for Edison, but that seems to be the most aid he received from Edison. He quit Edison's company after fixing the major flaws in the inefficient motor and generators and not getting the pay he was promised for the job in 1885. He was then approached by investors to create a lighting arc system. (there is little information on these investor)They financed the Tesla Electric Light Company in Rahway, New Jersey. He was issued 4 patents while at the company and including inventing a unique arc lamp. He wanted the company to go on and develop his ideas for alternating current transmission systems and motors. The investors disagreed and pushed him out of the company. In April 1887, Tesla started a company, the Tesla Electric Company, with the backing of New York attorney Charles F. Peck and Alfred S. Brown, the director of Western Union. It was at the the Tesla Electric Company that Tesla developed an AC motor. It was this accomplishment that finally brought Tesla to the attention of Westinghouse Electric & Manufacturing Company.

I think it's also important to include Michael Faraday in the list of people responsible for Tesla's accomplishments because of his research.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:22 pm

Nola_Lifer wrote:Yes, idolize the robber barons who held monopolizes, exploited workers and the government for profit. One of the reasons we are in the mess we are in.


Were we not in "the mess we are in" at the time of these industrialists and inventers?
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:26 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:I might watch it, but I rather see the Story of All of Us



Indeed that's the story of every country, the story of all of us.

Every country has held slaves and battled with indiginous peeps.


Some more than others.

In any case, the indiginous peeps in our case, were more slaughtered by the black plague than they were us. As in all other countries with "indiginous peeps" they would most likely have a massive presence, if not have kept the invaders out, if it were not for the plague having something like an 80% mortality rate with Native Americans.

By the way phatty...the use of the phrase; "battled with indiginous peeps"... makes you a POS :D

I hope you someday get to be that type of peep.


You nail why I fear "Progressives"....

hmm, others? Which countries handled their slavery issue within their first born generation?


And a follow up question. When in history has the loser of a war or battle been treated like the winner? You do understand the Indians lost the battles, right? You do understand that throughout most of world history, the losers were enslaved and murdered, right?

And why are you snarling at me all the time lately? Is it really because I used the word peeps instead of peoples?
Last edited by Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:33 pm

"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Symmetry on Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:35 pm

Personal Anecdote- my first year living in the US. Weird confrontation in the cafeteria:

Student: America never lost a war!
Symmetry: Well, there was Vietnam.
Student: That wasn't a war.
Symmetry: I visited the memorial last week.
Student: [To entire cafeteria] Symmetry just said America is a loser!

LATER

[Symmetry picks chewing gum out of hair, notes that humiliating defeat in Vietnam is uncomfortable to people who chew gum]
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:41 pm

Symmetry wrote:Personal Anecdote- my first year living in the US. Weird confrontation in the cafeteria:

Student: America never lost a war!
Symmetry: Well, there was Vietnam.
Student: That wasn't a war.
Symmetry: I visited the memorial last week.
Student: [To entire cafeteria] Symmetry just said America is a loser!

LATER

[Symmetry picks chewing gum out of hair, notes that humiliating defeat in Vietnam is uncomfortable to people who chew gum]


Why the hell are you posting that bullshit story here? :-s
"I want you to remember that, to remind you to stay out of my way. In all the years to come, in all your most private moments, I want you to remember my hand at your throat. I want you to remember the one man who beat you."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Symmetry on Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:53 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Personal Anecdote- my first year living in the US. Weird confrontation in the cafeteria:

Student: America never lost a war!
Symmetry: Well, there was Vietnam.
Student: That wasn't a war.
Symmetry: I visited the memorial last week.
Student: [To entire cafeteria] Symmetry just said America is a loser!

LATER

[Symmetry picks chewing gum out of hair, notes that humiliating defeat in Vietnam is uncomfortable to people who chew gum]


Why the hell are you posting that bullshit story here? :-s


Is this not the thread for vague anecdotes about macho American dudes?
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:43 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:I might watch it, but I rather see the Story of All of Us



Indeed that's the story of every country, the story of all of us.

Every country has held slaves and battled with indiginous peeps.


Some more than others.

In any case, the indiginous peeps in our case, were more slaughtered by the black plague than they were us. As in all other countries with "indiginous peeps" they would most likely have a massive presence, if not have kept the invaders out, if it were not for the plague having something like an 80% mortality rate with Native Americans.

By the way phatty...the use of the phrase; "battled with indiginous peeps"... makes you a POS :D

I hope you someday get to be that type of peep.


You nail why I fear "Progressives"....

hmm, others? Which countries handled their slavery issue within their first born generation?


And a follow up question. When in history has the loser of a war or battle been treated like the winner? You do understand the Indians lost the battles, right? You do understand that throughout most of world history, the losers were enslaved and murdered, right?

And why are you snarling at me all the time lately? Is it really because I used the word peeps instead of peoples?


No, dont worry, Im not that pettty. I assure you, its based on a complete lack of respect for your lack of character. Using peeps instead of peeps is just another in a long list of examples.

As far as answering your questions goes: You know those are rhetorical questions right? :lol:
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby AAFitz on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:45 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Personal Anecdote- my first year living in the US. Weird confrontation in the cafeteria:

Student: America never lost a war!
Symmetry: Well, there was Vietnam.
Student: That wasn't a war.
Symmetry: I visited the memorial last week.
Student: [To entire cafeteria] Symmetry just said America is a loser!

LATER

[Symmetry picks chewing gum out of hair, notes that humiliating defeat in Vietnam is uncomfortable to people who chew gum]


Why the hell are you posting that bullshit story here? :-s


[Phatscotty] Why the hell are you posting th[ose countless] bullshit stor[ies] here?
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sekretar: "i go to russia and then, without comp, i hoppe, i forgot this shit who kill my nerves long time!"

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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:48 pm

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:I might watch it, but I rather see the Story of All of Us



Indeed that's the story of every country, the story of all of us.

Every country has held slaves and battled with indiginous peeps.


Some more than others.

In any case, the indiginous peeps in our case, were more slaughtered by the black plague than they were us. As in all other countries with "indiginous peeps" they would most likely have a massive presence, if not have kept the invaders out, if it were not for the plague having something like an 80% mortality rate with Native Americans.

By the way phatty...the use of the phrase; "battled with indiginous peeps"... makes you a POS :D

I hope you someday get to be that type of peep.


You nail why I fear "Progressives"....

hmm, others? Which countries handled their slavery issue within their first born generation?


And a follow up question. When in history has the loser of a war or battle been treated like the winner? You do understand the Indians lost the battles, right? You do understand that throughout most of world history, the losers were enslaved and murdered, right?

And why are you snarling at me all the time lately? Is it really because I used the word peeps instead of peoples?


No, dont worry, Im not that pettty. I assure you, its based on a complete lack of respect for your lack of character. Using peeps instead of peeps is just another in a long list of examples.

As far as answering your questions goes: You know those are rhetorical questions right? :lol:


dodge. If your post is going to basically say nothing, why even post? (other than a vague attack on my character) Just get some perspective is all. You continually cram the history of America into the lens of 2012. It's a Progressive trait.

cracking yourself up a lot today eh?

I always use the word peeps.

We the Peeps!
Last edited by Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Symmetry on Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:08 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I know why you stalk me....


That's gonna need a bit of elaboration. Creepy wall posts doesn't quite cut it. Especially if you're going for the "I'm ignoring you" schtick.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:42 pm

Just realized something else too. All these men who built America and brought us railroads, steel, electricity, modern finance, oil, the automobile etc etc they all did so at a time when American's kept every penny of their earnings IE no income tax
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Lootifer on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:23 pm

Correlation does not imply causation.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:40 pm

Lootifer wrote:Correlation does not imply causation.


Luckily, I was not implying causation. Not even close. The implication was just to note that government is not the only entity that can provide infrastructure, we would not go back to the stone age if the government had to get its money from somewhere other than American workers earnings, and to point out that our golden age of innovation and opportunity existed when there was extremely limited government, we were on the gold standard, and there was no income tax. Schools and colleges provided much better education without federal government money.

Implication: We had all the right ingredients to earn the nickname "land of opportunity"
further implication: we have all the opposite ingredients now, and the result is the opposite of opportunity
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Lootifer on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:43 pm

Schools and colleges provided much better education without federal government money.

Implication: We had all the right ingredients to earn the nickname "land of opportunity"
further implication: we have all the opposite ingredients now, and the result is the opposite of opportunity

So I guess you're not a fan of John Adams then eh? ;)

Reading the wiki on the history of education in the US there is a substantial increase in public schools during that self same golden era. While again correlation doesn't imply causation its an interesting counter point to note.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:05 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Schools and colleges provided much better education without federal government money.

Implication: We had all the right ingredients to earn the nickname "land of opportunity"
further implication: we have all the opposite ingredients now, and the result is the opposite of opportunity

So I guess you're not a fan of John Adams then eh? ;)

Reading the wiki on the history of education in the US there is a substantial increase in public schools during that self same golden era. While again correlation doesn't imply causation its an interesting counter point to note.


Funny you should ask. I'm about 200 pages into his autobiography at the moment. Adams is definitely one of my favorites. I've seen the HBO series probably 100 times (I always fall asleep to it). Have you read his autobiography or maybe seen the series? Not sure what your assumption implies, but you can try to trap me with it. 8-)

I will grant your point that 100% of schools were not independent of federal funding. I was going to put that in my previous post, but didn't think you would go there, since it doesn't prove or disprove anything really. I would assume based on common sense and a growing population along with building more schools to accomodate the growth (with the exception of the flu pandemic and world wars and probably some great depression years) that public school investment has grown probably every year.....

example: Barack Obama and Democrat controlled Congress increased education spending 100% in either 2009 or 2010, and the other year I think it was increased by 78% (when you add up various factors, not just the budget of the BOE). What was the outcome? teachers strikes, union growth in money and power, and results that stayed about the same as the year before.... unless you count the warm fuzzies and ego stroking some people seem to be dependent on

For the sake of the thread topic tho, there is a clear takeover of the education system by the federal government around the time of "the great society". When it comes to public funding, for these purposes, it can be pretty much summed up as pre great society and post G. S. And it's crystal clear that while schools have gotten a lot nicer and have swimming pools and internet access and heat and AC and free lunch programs, the results of our education system since the 1960's has been steadily getting worse.

bottom line is, IMO, our once best in the world education system will probably not survive the impact of the counter-culture and the now too powerful teachers unions.
Last edited by Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:10 pm

Phatscotty wrote:For the sake of the thread topic tho, there is a clear takeover of the education system by the federal government around the time of "the great society". When it comes to public funding, for these purposes, it can be pretty much summed up as pre great society and post G. S. And it's crystal clear that while schools have gotten a lot nicer and have swimming pools and internet access and heat and AC and free lunch programs, the results of our education system since the 1960's has been steadily getting worse


Lootifer wrote:Correlation does not imply causation.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:13 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:For the sake of the thread topic tho, there is a clear takeover of the education system by the federal government around the time of "the great society". When it comes to public funding, for these purposes, it can be pretty much summed up as pre great society and post G. S. And it's crystal clear that while schools have gotten a lot nicer and have swimming pools and internet access and heat and AC and free lunch programs, the results of our education system since the 1960's has been steadily getting worse


Lootifer wrote:Correlation does not imply causation.


good, because the thread topic covers the time around about 1870 to 1910. The 1960's have nothing to do with it

you can be a better smart-ass than that!
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby AAFitz on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:28 am

Phatscotty wrote: dodge. If your post is going to basically say nothing, why even post? (other than a vague attack on my character) Just get some perspective is all. You continually cram the history of America into the lens of 2012. It's a Progressive trait.

cracking yourself up a lot today eh?

I always use the word peeps.

We the Peeps!


You asked a question and I answered it honestly. Im not commenting on your character, just explaining that it was the reason for my posts. Im not even implying I am correct, only, that it is the reason. And since your other questions were either just stupid or rhetorical, I didnt dodge them, only appropriately ignored them.

And no, I don't cram it into the lens of 2012. I cram it into the lens of the Bible and the Christian notion of right and wrong. And dont worry. I see the irony of that just fine.

As far as using the word peeps, in situations where extermination was involved, feel free, and I only remind you it is one of the factors that leads me to my assessment of your character, which is again not necessarily an attack, because I state it with the understanding of your probable view of mine.

In any case, I will definitely try to check out the series. Just this morning I saw the first episode of Oliver Stones new series. Im sure we will get an equal amount of entertainment discussing that when the time comes.
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Nola_Lifer on Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:45 pm

"The first transcontinental railroad was build with blood, sweat, politics and thievery...The Central Pacific...spent $200,000 in Washington on bribes to get 9 million acres of free land and $24 million in bonds" then they paid a construction company, which they owned, $79 million an overpayment of $36 million.

The Union Pacific "had been given 12 million acres of free land and $27 million in government bonds. It created the Credit Mobilier company and gave them $94 million for construction when the actual cost was $44 million. Shares were cold cheaply to Congressmen to prevent investigation."


These men certainly didn't want to fight for America. "Morgan had escaped military service in the Civil War by paying $300 to a substitute. So did John D. Rockafeller, Andrew Carnegie, Phillip Armour, Jay Gould, and James Mellon."

"John D. Rockefeller...decided that, in the new industry of oil, who controlled the oil refineries controlled the industry. Standard Oil Company of Ohio, made secret agreement with railroads to ship his oil with them if they gave him rebates on their prices, and thus drove competitors out of business."

"And so it went, in industry after industry...businessmen building empires, choking out competition, maintaining high prices, keeping wages low, using government subsidies. These industries were the first beneficiaries of the 'welfare state.' By the turn of the century, American Telephone and Telegraph had a monopoly on the nation's machinery, and in every other industry resources became concentrated, controlled. The banks had interests in so many of these monopolies as to create and interlocking network of powerful corporation directors. According to a Senate report of the early 2oth century, Morgan at his peak sat on the board of forty-eight corporation; Rockefeller, thirty-seven corporation."

These are the men you want to idolize? They are the reason we are in the predicament we are in now.

One more thing; "While some multimillionaires started in poverty, most did not. A study of the origins of 303 textile, railroad, and steel executives of the 1870s showed that 90 percent came from the middle- or upper-class families. The Horartio Alger stories of 'rags to riches' were true for a few men, but mostly a myth, and a useful myth for control."
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Lootifer on Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:36 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Funny you should ask. I'm about 200 pages into his autobiography at the moment. Adams is definitely one of my favorites. I've seen the HBO series probably 100 times (I always fall asleep to it). Have you read his autobiography or maybe seen the series? Not sure what your assumption implies, but you can try to trap me with it. 8-)

I will grant your point that 100% of schools were not independent of federal funding. I was going to put that in my previous post, but didn't think you would go there, since it doesn't prove or disprove anything really. I would assume based on common sense and a growing population along with building more schools to accomodate the growth (with the exception of the flu pandemic and world wars and probably some great depression years) that public school investment has grown probably every year.....

example: Barack Obama and Democrat controlled Congress increased education spending 100% in either 2009 or 2010, and the other year I think it was increased by 78% (when you add up various factors, not just the budget of the BOE). What was the outcome? teachers strikes, union growth in money and power, and results that stayed about the same as the year before.... unless you count the warm fuzzies and ego stroking some people seem to be dependent on

For the sake of the thread topic tho, there is a clear takeover of the education system by the federal government around the time of "the great society". When it comes to public funding, for these purposes, it can be pretty much summed up as pre great society and post G. S. And it's crystal clear that while schools have gotten a lot nicer and have swimming pools and internet access and heat and AC and free lunch programs, the results of our education system since the 1960's has been steadily getting worse.

bottom line is, IMO, our once best in the world education system will probably not survive the impact of the counter-culture and the now too powerful teachers unions.

Oh I just thought this interesting:
"The whole people must take upon themselves the education of the whole people and be willing to bear the expenses of it. There should not be a district of one mile square, without a school in it, not founded by a charitable individual, but maintained at the public expense of the people themselves."

— John Adams, U.S. President, 1785

Also I am confused; could you clarify something for me: You mean the period between 1840-1910 was or was not the greatest growth period in the US? (I am genuinely unsure; I didnt do american history at school)
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Re: The Men Who Built America

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:45 pm

btw, John Adams also said...

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.
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