Rail Europe [Quenched]

[nippersean]

Cairns,

I have some evidence.

If you change one of my favourite maps, I shall kill you. So there. That is all.

What next, someone got lucky dice off a cannon in Waterloo - maybe they shouldn't bombard?? Crazee talk.

Lots of love, Nipp

I think you should certainly consider putting something up in GD for a wider input on this.

[cairnswk]

I have run the bonus calculator again on this and the results are

Click image to enlarge.

These are the differences as they stand now

[cairnswk]

Cairns,

I have some evidence.

If you change one of my favourite maps, I shall kill you. So there. That is all.

What next, someone got lucky dice off a cannon in Waterloo - maybe they shouldn't bombard?? Crazee talk.

Lots of love, Nipp

I think you should certainly consider putting something up in GD for a wider input on this.

Hehe, luv your humour Nipp.
I think if people really want it discuss it they can find it in here. I see no reason to create more work than necessary moving threads around.

[cairnswk]

Wow there are many bonuses off...

Not that far off Gill once i re-calcaluted the table...meh...mistakes i make

[agentcom]

can somebody plz explain why is M bonus +3? bcuz it has 2 borders and N and A have only 1? kinda makes P +2 with twice as many lands and also 2 borders ridiculous?

LOL was just thinking the same thing, B bonus can be broken much easier and it's also +3

Does every bonus have to be equal in this manner? I'm not saying this is the case here, but I would think that there are times when the map maker wants people to concentrate a lot on one area over another.

[cairnswk]

can somebody plz explain why is M bonus +3? bcuz it has 2 borders and N and A have only 1? kinda makes P +2 with twice as many lands and also 2 borders ridiculous?

LOL was just thinking the same thing, B bonus can be broken much easier and it's also +3

Does every bonus have to be equal in this manner? I'm not saying this is the case here, but I would think that there are times when the map maker wants people to concentrate a lot on one area over another.

Well, ideally the map should be as balanced as possible.
It is not just the mapmaker who wants...
but it is the people who have gameplay input as the time the map is developed that want also...
and there are those who bother to provide feedback when the map is BETAd who want also...
I find it a little strange that when the map was quenched on 16 Apr 2008, a month after 1 person commented about these bonuses, then 2 yrs later, another, and then now...
my goodness go figure

[koontz1973]

I find it a little strange that when the map was quenched on 16 Apr 2008, a month after 1 person commented about these bonuses, then 2 yrs later, another, and then now...
my goodness go figure

And this alone should tell you to leave it alone. A vocal minority will always sound louder than a silent majority. But the silence is deafening about these bonuses.

[benga]

I find it a little strange that when the map was quenched on 16 Apr 2008, a month after 1 person commented about these bonuses, then 2 yrs later, another, and then now...
my goodness go figure

And this alone should tell you to leave it alone. A vocal minority will always sound louder than a silent majority. But the silence is deafening about these bonuses.

Or maybe it wasn't played enough cause it's unbalanced map?

And sorry I wasn't here in 2008 and I don't always see everything on first glance.

It doesn't mean it needs to be fixed, but like this is not balanced.

[koontz1973]

Over 9000 games is not a lot. It may not have the balance that the current maps have but so what. Not every map needs to be balanced. If this map needed more work, more people would of posted in the thread over the years asking for it, not just the recent weeks.

Classic is not balanced but I do not see post after post in that thread demanding a change. And that one has had 2699315 games finished on it.

[benga]

Over 9000 games is not a lot. It may not have the balance that the current maps have but so what. Not every map needs to be balanced. If this map needed more work, more people would of posted in the thread over the years asking for it, not just the recent weeks.

Classic is not balanced but I do not see post after post in that thread demanding a change. And that one has had 2699315 games finished on it.

Yes, but you are only backing up my argument, SA and AUS are equally valued,
whereas M and N are not and M and B are, if you look at the structure of bonuses
and the possiblity of holding/breaking them you will see the difference.

Protecting a map and map maker is nice,
but there are no real argumnets here not to make the change.

[koontz1973]

Over 9000 games is not a lot. It may not have the balance that the current maps have but so what. Not every map needs to be balanced. If this map needed more work, more people would of posted in the thread over the years asking for it, not just the recent weeks.

Classic is not balanced but I do not see post after post in that thread demanding a change. And that one has had 2699315 games finished on it.

Yes, but you are only backing up my argument, SA and AUS are equally valued,
whereas M and N are not and M and B are, if you look at the structure of bonuses
and the possiblity of holding/breaking them you will see the difference.

Protecting a map and map maker is nice,
but there are no real argumnets here not to make the change.

Argument to make the change is only to make the map more balanced. And IMO, this is a weak argument, made even weaker because of the length of time out of beta.
Arguments against it are as follows.
Not everyone believes it to be unbalanced. Evidence of this is that no one has really posted about this over the years.
Does every map need to have balance. No, it makes the options to choose a map slightly more risky. Why have 200+ maps if all turn out to be the same.
This was a part of the foundry process (as you say before your time) but the foundry personnel and players who commented on the map did not raise the issue then or did not think of it as such a big problem as to raise it.
With over 200 maps, no one is forcing anyone to play this map (unless it comes up as random map).
This issue is now well documented.

Their are 5 reasons for not having the change. But in the end, it will be down to cairnswk.

[chapcrap]

Wow there are many bonuses off...

Not that far off Gill once i re-calcaluted the table...meh...mistakes i make

He didn't say they were far off, just that there are a lot that are off. And there are!!

8 of 16 bonuses is a pretty high percentage.

[benga]

Just a note, I was against Dust Bowl changes, I like the unbalance that it gave,
cause the whole map idea is such that fits the theme.

This is just another thing.

And one other note, having a huge pool of maps from which X% of maps is not played or rarely played is just bad and if any balancing would help map to be played more, then why not?

Otherwise what's the point of that map being available for play.

Cheers!

p.s.
cairn do what you think it's best, just wanted to give my view

[cairnswk]

...
Their are 5 reasons for not having the change. But in the end, it will be down to cairnswk.

...
p.s.
cairn do what you think it's best, just wanted to give my view

there are a number of reasons that some of the bonuses were off, least of all adjustments that were made at time of mapmaking.
i have already given my opinion, and that is that i want to see evidence of a far greater majority of players coming in here and giving their opinion to vote in favour of making the changes to the bonuses. If they don't come and give their opinion then that to me is ample sign that no-one else is worried about this...so if you want the change...get your friends to come to post in favour of it happening. I am not going to make it happen just on the say-so of 5/6 players.

[DoomYoshi]

I would like to point out that Vilnius, not only is a good route, but it's also in a tough to get area. It is extra powerful. I think if only Vilnius was changed, the balance would be great on this map.