[Vacation untill July 2014] Massacre à Paris

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[Vacation untill July 2014] Massacre à Paris

Postby cairnswk on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:35 am

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Map Name:Massacre à Paris

Supersize confirmed at 900 x 600 Small
Upsize allowed to 900X x 650H Small (9.1.2013 by isaiah40)

Mapmaker(s):cairnswk

Number of Territories:126

Special Features:Maybe a conditional border or two to do with the royals

What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made:
* Simple gameplay - get the guy immediately adjacent (next door) to you and conquer traditional style regions to obtain bonuses
show: Other Reasons


Map Size:
Small - 900W x 650H
Large - 1000W x 722H

Current Version 16:
Click image to enlarge.
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show: Assualt Routes Guide


show: CB images


show: Original Map Images


Background to the map:
St Bartholomew's Day Massacre
In 1572, Catherine de Medici (mother and power behind the throne) and Charles IX (both Catholic) sanctioned the marriage of Henry de Navarre (Protestant) and Catherine's daughter Marguerite de Valois (Catholic) in the hope that it would stop religious wars continuance between the Huguenots (Protestants) and Catholics in France.
This hope was falacious on the part of Catherine de Medici who really wanted France to remain Catholic. She schemed to get King Charles IX to order the slaughter of the Huguenots after the marriage ceremony. She was also going to kill Henry de Navarre but didn't succeed because of the protection by Marguerite.
Consequently, the final numbers are not really known, but probably upwards of 10,000 Huguenots lost their lives throughout Paris (and France) in the following 5 days.
References: there are plenty! Queen Margot and Henry 4 are two DVDs worth watching.
Buildings: In the map, the scene is set at at Louvre. It is known that the building at the bottom of the map exists at that time (Lescot wing); and the building at the top of the map - Tuileries - was partially completed having been started in 1564. Catherine wanted this building to escape from the stench and rot that had become become Paris surrounding the Lourve quarter. Unfortunately the Tuileries was destroyed by fire in 1871, and finally demolished in 1882.
The rest of the Louvre had not been built at this stage, as much of it was constructed during Napoleon's reign.

Terrirtory Numbers:
There are currently 126 in 13 continents. The buildings and Royals do not count (yet) as continents.
116 is the Golden Number.
Therefore 4 Royals, 4 Buildings and 1 each of the duelers in the two small sections - Section de la Ville and Port Neufue - make up the 10 to reduce 126 to 116.
This may change depending on how gameplay develops.

Gameplay:
Simple - get the guy next to you.
Borders: with the exception of the buildings, only those duelers in front of other ground regions have access to the duelers in that region.
Buildings: Only duelers in black pants in front of buildings sections can assault same section of the buildings

show: Gameplay Poll Winner Option 4
Last edited by cairnswk on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:40 pm, edited 54 times in total.
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Re: Massacre of Paris

Postby sempaispellcheck on Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:31 am

Couple of purely grammatical things to start with (I apologize if I missed these the first time around):
It's Carrousel (2 r's), not Carousel. You have it right in the legend, but not on the map.
If you're going to keep the top line in English, you should probably write Catholic, not Catholique.
Title: "à" means "in" or "at." To say "of" write "de." Though you'd probably be best off just avoiding all that and calling the map "Massacre à Paris."

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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:34 pm

It should say "only black pants can assualt buildings". The way it is now, it sounds like they can't attack other duelers at all.

What is the point of the royals? Is there a bonus or anything with them?

It seems kind of crazy that there is a global +1 on all duelers, but its just crazy enough, I think it will work.

There are no black pants in the bottom buildings. Are these ones unassailable? Also, the lines don't entirely make sense.
Can CA attack CD? Why or why not?

Many of the circles sit on top of the pants. If the pants are important to see which color, the circle should not be on top of them.
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Re: Massacre of Paris

Postby cairnswk on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:18 pm

sempaispellcheck wrote:Couple of purely grammatical things to start with (I apologize if I missed these the first time around):
It's Carrousel (2 r's), not Carousel. You have it right in the legend, but not on the map.
If you're going to keep the top line in English, you should probably write Catholic, not Catholique.
Title: "à" means "in" or "at." To say "of" write "de." Though you'd probably be best off just avoiding all that and calling the map "Massacre à Paris."

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sempai. thank-you for those correcetions. :)
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby cairnswk on Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:30 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:It should say "only black pants can assualt buildings". The way it is now, it sounds like they can't attack other duelers at all.

DoomYoshi, thanks for dropping in at the start of this.
Changed to -> * Only duelers in black pants in front of buildings sections can assault same section

What is the point of the royals? Is there a bonus or anything with them?

the Royals were the ones who created this battle, therefore they are vitally important, so the bonus and/or mechanisms need to reflect that somehow...perhaps you might have ideas?

It seems kind of crazy that there is a global +1 on all duelers, but its just crazy enough, I think it will work.

that may be temp -> removable or changeable depending on gameplay discussion

There are no black pants in the bottom buildings. Are these ones unassailable?

There are now!

Also, the lines don't entirely make sense.
Can CA attack CD? Why or why not?

I want to keep the gameplay relatively simple - get the guy next door - so no CA cannot attack CD
CA can attack HA, CB or HB in Parvis du Sud
CA can also attack into Port Neufue but i yet have work out a decent way of showing that graphically

Many of the circles sit on top of the pants. If the pants are important to see which color, the circle should not be on top of them.

For space reasons, many circles will have to be ontop pants.
there are currently 3 swordsmen in front to the Tuileries who can assault that building
and there are now 2 in front of the Lourve
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:53 pm

Ok. It makes sense now. In the legend, the main guy should be highlighted (the bottom green guy) or arrows should be added. I was reading that as from any guy in that diagram, you can attack any other guy. I was expecting you to say CA can attack CC.

On the royal bonuses:

Ok, so imaginary 8-player game. You start with 14 territories (I count 118 starting in total). This means that you have +14 every turn just for the fencers. You also have +4 for holding 12 or more territories. With a basic starting bonus of +18 in even the biggest games, the royal bonus will have to be something like a +20 autodrop to be meaningful.

With the new conditional bonuses, is it possible to code +1 autodrop on Green soldiers if Henri de Navarre is held? That would make for an awesome game I think.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby cairnswk on Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:07 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Ok. It makes sense now. In the legend, the main guy should be highlighted (the bottom green guy) or arrows should be added. I was reading that as from any guy in that diagram, you can attack any other guy. I was expecting you to say CA can attack CC.

Good. the way duelers are presently laid out, some duelers will have 3 or more other duelers assaulting. C40 for instance has 6.

On the royal bonuses:
Ok, so imaginary 8-player game. You start with 14 territories (I count 118 starting in total). This means that you have +14 every turn just for the fencers. You also have +4 for holding 12 or more territories. With a basic starting bonus of +18 in even the biggest games, the royal bonus will have to be something like a +20 autodrop to be meaningful.

Sorry i missed a couple of duelers...i have done the basic xml and the count is 116 + 10 neutrals
So 116 / 8 = 14 to start if +1 autodeploy remains <- probably not at this stage
You would have +4 for 12 or more terrs - Yes.
That would reduce the royal bonus if the autodeploy was taken away - yes?

With the new conditional bonuses, is it possible to code +1 autodrop on Green soldiers if Henri de Navarre is held? That would make for an awesome game I think.

I think that should be possible.
What about if the Charles IX is held...does the same apply to Catholics?
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:16 am

Yea, the same could apply for Catholics, and then the 2 women could offer regional multipliers.


All I was saying by counting terts is that if you already have a huge bonus to start, taking neutrals for another bonus should also be huge. I think +1 auto deploy on every soldier sounds exciting. Then it changes to +2 if you hold the leader. The regional bonuses will have to be bigger too, to make sense for attacking them.

How do you feel if we run the bonus through the usual calculator, and double them for the baseline bonus (so if calculator says +7, we make it +14 instead). Then each princess doubles it again. (if you hold one princess, your regional bonus is now worth +28 and the other princess makes it +56).

Of course, there will need to be very large neutral stacks on the royals, we should aim to have them not conquer able until turn 5, except of course with unlimited reinforcements.

Final note: these are pretty radical ideas we are working with, but if you can pull this off cairns, this has a definite chance to be a legendary map. The difficulty lies in the balance, and I foresee a lengthy stay in the final forge for this one while everything is worked out.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:28 am

Sorry cairns for not posting till now. Had a few look ins (about half of your 100+ views are me) but still trying to make up my mind on this one. O:)

First impressions on game play is another cairns map (complicated) but you said it was simple. So why was it complicated, that may be down to the graphics you have chosen for this draft and the way to have connections. Graphics, not going to comment on as you always get to the standard needed (but I will say this seems a little hurried, even for you :| No offence intended). With the army circles on the men, it is hard to see the black shorts. H20 looks like he has the advantage because he has a sub machine gun. :lol: Without normal territ lines or territs, I believe you are going to have a lot of trouble with players over what attacks what. Red and green for the men, can a different colour be found for one of them (for CB reasons).

Have you sent nobodies or isaiah a quick PM yet over the size issue?

While you are at it, it might be wise to think about increasing the height. That would take care of a lot of problems later.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby cairnswk on Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:05 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Sorry cairns for not posting till now. Had a few look ins (about half of your 100+ views are me) but still trying to make up my mind on this one. O:)

koontz i shall not fogive you for not posting before this...you should know better than that :lol:

First impressions on game play is another cairns map (complicated) but you said it was simple. So why was it complicated, that may be down to the graphics you have chosen for this draft and the way to have connections.

Well it is simple!
Since we can't move duelers around as they would do in RL, doesn't it make sense that those duelers immediately in front of open borders would only have access to other regions.
And since each dueler can assault anyone in their immediate vicinity, doesn't that tell you that if there are two duelers each side of a border, then each dueler has two opponents (or access if you like) to the other region. I realise I am the creator and my mind is clear, but give me time and we will get there.

Graphics, not going to comment on as you always get to the standard needed (but I will say this seems a little hurried, even for you :| No offence intended).


I am not offended, but i am indeed surprised you chose to travel this road with this comment. I would say to you that you should re-think some of your judgements about how much time it takes to do these things. I can tell you that getting to this draft stage has taken over three weeks of research and several days drawing shapes and buildings etc. In the Palais Royal for instance there is a whole days work with some 200 elements. To say this it hurried i am quiet shocked. :shock: :shock:
And if you have a magic wand for making these things appear quickly, then please pass on your secrets.

With the army circles on the men, it is hard to see the black shorts.

Gees, koontz, the instructions say * Only duelers in black pants in front of buildings sections can assault same section
so i can clearly see there are only 3 at the top and 2 at the bottom who have black pants on.

H20 looks like he has the advantage because he has a sub machine gun. :lol:

Yes well, you would have to go there.

Without normal territ lines or territs, I believe you are going to have a lot of trouble with players over what attacks what. Red and green for the men, can a different colour be found for one of them (for CB reasons).

Yes different colours are being worked on now for CB reasons. The red will change to yellow which will affect the whole tone of the image. So lots of other colours will have to change. Keep watch.

Have you sent nobodies or isaiah a quick PM yet over the size issue?

No, but will do so.

While you are at it, it might be wise to think about increasing the height. That would take care of a lot of problems later.

I can increase the height no probs, but what problems are you forseeing that you haven't told me about in the communicae.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby cairnswk on Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:09 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Yea, the same could apply for Catholics, and then the 2 women could offer regional multipliers.

All I was saying by counting terts is that if you already have a huge bonus to start, taking neutrals for another bonus should also be huge. I think +1 auto deploy on every soldier sounds exciting. Then it changes to +2 if you hold the leader. The regional bonuses will have to be bigger too, to make sense for attacking them.

How do you feel if we run the bonus through the usual calculator, and double them for the baseline bonus (so if calculator says +7, we make it +14 instead). Then each princess doubles it again. (if you hold one princess, your regional bonus is now worth +28 and the other princess makes it +56).

Of course, there will need to be very large neutral stacks on the royals, we should aim to have them not conquer able until turn 5, except of course with unlimited reinforcements.

Final note: these are pretty radical ideas we are working with, but if you can pull this off cairns, this has a definite chance to be a legendary map. The difficulty lies in the balance, and I foresee a lengthy stay in the final forge for this one while everything is worked out.


I am liking your thinking Doom, yes it is radical, but let me get this bonus calcalator thing done first for the basics, and ensure the connections are good for borders etc. (as one person is already having issues with that)...and the instructions clear, and then we can look more solidly are these ideas of yours. :)
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:23 pm

koontz i shall not fogive you for not posting before this...you should know better than that :lol:

I have been properly spanked. Let me go and lick my wounds.
Well it is simple!

I know, but it took me a while.
I am not offended, but i am indeed surprised you chose to travel this road with this comment.

No road travelled. Remember, first impressions mean a lot to me and I am only starting to get to a level of graphics that I feel worthy of the site with a first draft (Remember Rorke's and compare that to my latest ones). You on the other hand have got far more experience than me and I know that what you have here is in no way reflective of the final product. I know that you, probably more so than any map maker today does far more research and does take their time over each element of the map, but one of the things that struck me as odd was the choice of red/green duellers. Just for colour blind purposes. And the black pants issue, with this being the small I assume, it was hard to find them at a quick glance. So how about another colour for those ones?
Gees, koontz, the instructions say * Only duelers in black pants in front of buildings sections can assault same section
so i can clearly see there are only 3 at the top and 2 at the bottom who have black pants on.

As you said, 3 weeks staring at this thing, you know it inside out. I spent a while looking for them (a lot longer than a 5 minute speed game would of given me). :P
Yes well, you would have to go there.

I did, I truly did. ;) Now how about the odd bazooka or even a tank? :lol:
I can increase the height no probs, but what problems are you forseeing that you haven't told me about in the communicae.

Put it this way, if I looked and had a hard time, imagine someone new player getting this. It is a great concept and it is different (even for you and that is saying something) but the idea of trying to explain movement the way you have, it might be a tad much for some of the non English speaking players to grasp. I am not saying to draw lines all over the map now, but it might come up later.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby generalhead on Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:28 pm

Are some of the men wearing black underwear? just kidding :lol:
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby cairnswk on Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:51 pm

generalhead wrote:Are some of the men wearing black underwear? just kidding :lol:

the appropriate response would be: did they wear underwear in those days? :lol:
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby ViperOverLord on Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:31 pm

Just another masterpiece.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby generalhead on Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:28 am

cairnswk wrote:
generalhead wrote:Are some of the men wearing black underwear? just kidding :lol:

the appropriate response would be: did they wear underwear in those days? :lol:

Image :lol:
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby cairnswk on Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:43 pm

generalhead wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
generalhead wrote:Are some of the men wearing black underwear? just kidding :lol:

the appropriate response would be: did they wear underwear in those days? :lol:

Image :lol:

OK back to topic please
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby generalhead on Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:29 pm

Sorry
couple of questions:
Is there a doorway between Parvis Du Sud and Port Neufue where there should be arrows?
Does H37 attack H25
Does H16 and H17 attack h26
Sorry i'm just a little confused about the attack routes. I Understand them Within the bonus regions, but between the bonus regions i am confused.
If it had attack routes more like Trafalgar it might be less confusing. But with the attack routes it takes away the free feeling of the map.
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Don't take offense to this because my map making skills are no where near yours but some things on this map do need work ex.: The water, The lines in the legend between attackers, It might look good if you had texture only on the buildings and not the roofs.

I love the 3-d affect of the buildings, Top Notch. I love the bushes too. The look of the map is great.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby cairnswk on Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:52 pm

generalhead, can you remove the [img] tags from your Trafalgar refer please....just looks tidier if done like that. Thanks

generalhead wrote:Sorry
couple of questions:
Is there a doorway between Parvis Du Sud and Port Neufue where there should be arrows?

Yes, but that wall will go next version so it clearer.

Does H37 attack H25

Yes, and C25

Does H16 and H17 attack h26

Yes, and that will be made clearer
Sorry i'm just a little confused about the attack routes. I Understand them Within the bonus regions, but between the bonus regions i am confused.
If it had attack routes more like Trafalgar it might be less confusing. But with the attack routes it takes away the free feeling of the map.
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n58 ... lgar4L.jpg

I understand your concern, and hopefully i can graphically grapple with that satisfactorily so the map retains it's free flow.

Don't take offense to this because my map making skills are no where near yours but some things on this map do need work ex.: The water, The lines in the legend between attackers, It might look good if you had texture only on the buildings and not the roofs.

No offense taken when good suggestions are put forward.
All of those are targeted for work....this is only the first draft.

I love the 3-d affect of the buildings, Top Notch. I love the bushes too. The look of the map is great.

All Good. Thanks for your comments :)
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby generalhead on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:38 am

where you going to do another draft or are you waiting to see what every one thinks.
I hope to see another draft this is a unique idea.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:03 am

generalhead wrote:where you going to do another draft or are you waiting to see what every one thinks.
I hope to see another draft this is a unique idea.

generalhead...give me time please, my maps are not done in just one program and i have other RL issues to be handled.
i am in the process of miving this from fireworks into illustrator...that takes time.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:11 am

My favorite map ever is Poison Rome and I am getting the impression that the gameplay on this one is similar. I can use my imagination on this map to picture the graphics as they will be and I think it will be very easy on the eyes once finished. Any concerns I have thus far are in reference to gameplay. I personally hope that this map is finished with consideration for not having certain areas that once held give a severe advantage to either player (drop issues). Otherwise I am looking forward to this map as it looks very fun indeed.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:00 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:My favorite map ever is Poison Rome and I am getting the impression that the gameplay on this one is similar. I can use my imagination on this map to picture the graphics as they will be and I think it will be very easy on the eyes once finished. Any concerns I have thus far are in reference to gameplay. I personally hope that this map is finished with consideration for not having certain areas that once held give a severe advantage to either player (drop issues). Otherwise I am looking forward to this map as it looks very fun indeed.


Funkyterrance, i wouldn't say the gameplay will be like Poison Rome. I'm hoping this will have its own gameplay.

Also if yuo have concerns about the drop, then please make sure you visit this map while in deveopment to watch what ensues and that you put forward any ideas towards it not having uneven drop. :)
You know you're always welcome.
Last edited by cairnswk on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Massacre à Paris

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:07 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Funkyterrance, i wouldn't say the gameplay will be like Poison Rome. I'm hoping this will have its won gameplay.

Also if yuou have concerns about the drop, then please make sure you visit this map while in deveopment to watch what ensues and that you put forward any ideas towards it not having uneven drop. :)
You know you're always welcome.


I will be keeping an eye on this map, you needn't worry about that. ;)

As far as the differences between this and Poison Rome I suppose I would have to play this one to be sure but I definitely see some strong similarities at a glance. For instance, the linear feel and bottlenecking of bonuses. While they are obviously different in that there are less points of attack, different mode of movement between terts and no bombards, I feel that the overall vibe will be similar. To me this is a good thing since it would mean an alternative to my favorite map with a little spice added (looser borders). Again, we shall see once the map is completed and in the meantime agree to disagree. I must say, however, that I have a good deal of experience on Poison Rome. :D
If it is like Poison Rome in the ways I think it will be I will be very pleased.
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Re: Massacre à Paris [29.11.12] V4

Postby cairnswk on Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:49 am

Version 4. )3 was some experimenting that didn't work out)

I've taken this and put it into Illustrator CS5 (from Fireworks CS3)...i think the difference it s bit finer!
I've changed a few things like the fences and impassables (Impracticable)...but the gameplay is essentially the same...

Click image to enlarge.
image
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