josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

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josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:58 am

Accused:

josko.ri
Moonchild

The accused are suspected of:

i) Systematic sitting abuse
ii) Entering a player into games in the knowledge he will be absent
iii) Gaining an unfair advantage in complex unlimited fort games

Game number(s):

Game 11960113*
Game 11960055*
Game 11960054
Game 11926485*
Game 11895784*
Game 11895783*
Game 11895782
Game 11859148
Game 11859147*
Game 11673703*
Game 11665183
Game 11590571
Game 11590570*

The above 13 games all featured sitting of Moonchild, with unlimited fort settings, and in addition there are 20 other tournament team games (not listed) featuring Moonchild that were set-up by KORT since early September. Total 33 games.

Comments:

i) Any experienced CC player will tell you that unlimited forts is a complex setting whose most difficult moves (and greatest input) are in Round 1. I have marked with a * against 8 of the 13 games above the instances where a KORT player - Moonchild in 7 of 8 - has been covered by the team's best player in the very first round.

ii) It is apparent (from game chat in Game 11558832) that since the beginning of September Moonchild has been unable to log in to CC unless from his work PC (see comment here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=179479&start=45#p3970685 which means for 38% of the week he is unable to take his own turns.

iii) KORT has a member list running to 30 players, approx 25-26 of whom are active. Why then are they putting a player into games who they know cannot play his own turns on such a regular basis.

iv) More alarmingly, why are 40% of the games he is entered in with unlimited forts, especially when such a high incidence of first round turns are not taken by him but by josko?

Some interesting info on the games (I've only covered the 13 unlimited forts games listed above, not the entire 33) as follows:

Game 11960113 - josko took Moonchild's first turn. Moonchild could have taken this himself on 23rd Nov but left it to josko to play later.
Game 11926485 - josko played his turn less than 3 hours after the preceding player, thus ensuring Moonchild's turn would fall due over the weekend. This is contrary to the remark made by josko contained here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=179479&start=45#p3970685 wherein he states in Pt.1 that he will stall his turn to avoid having to sit for Moonchild. Also in this game josko covered for Sir Sebstar in Round 1 - yet by remarkable coincidence Sir Sebstar was able to return to CC just 41 minutes after his turn would have expired and post here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=135788&p=3961622#p3961622
Game 11895784 - blue plays just 4 hours after the previous turn, thus ensuring Moonchild's turn will have to be covered over the weekend
Game 11895783 - turn fell due and could have been played on the 16th by Moonchild, yet it was left to josko
Game 11673703 - josko took his turn after just 82 minutes, again ensuring Moonchild's turn would have to be covered by him over the weekend
Game 11590570 - 23rd September (Sunday) Moonchild plays his own turn. So does he have Internet or not? Or was the sitting not posted in chat, and if so how many more instances of this have occurred? Also in this game another KORT player had his 1st turn taken (by Nimic) and subsequently josko sat again for Moonchild.

Make from it what you will, but on the evidence it would appear there is a routine practice of entering Moonchild in KORT challenge/tourney games when he is known to be absent for a great part of that time. And when 40% of those games involve unlimited forts - which josko conveniently covers - then it would appear an unfair advantage is being gained by KORT using these settings in conjunction with a practice of sitting abuse. So far, judging from the results, this has served them very well against AOC, Pack, Dynasty, OSA and again (just commencing) AOC.

Thank you

p.s. lots more examples of KORT's sitting practice in unlimited fort games may be seen here: Game 11037499 (josko sitting 1st turn vs IA), Game 11327526 (josko/Foxglove sitting for Astoriana when Astoriana had been online whilst his turn was due), plus several involving GLG where he covered for team mates.
Last edited by Chariot of Fire on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild

Postby josko.ri on Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:06 am

I am glad that this came to official procedure rather than flaming me on forums that I abuse the system without confirmation from officials. There are a lot of evidence from like 2 months period, so I need some time to read it all and put rebuttal evidence which proves that there were no abuse in the sitting done.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild

Postby comic boy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:20 am

josko.ri wrote:I am glad that this came to official procedure rather than flaming me on forums that I abuse the system without confirmation from officials. There are a lot of evidence from like 2 months period, so I need some time to read it all and put rebuttal evidence which proves that there were no abuse in the sitting done.
Thanks


Josko
The important thing is that you acknowledge that such incidents have happened on a regular basis , whether deliberate or not I would not know but there is a pattern . Whatever the outcome of this report it should not be difficult for your clan to put in place safeguards to prevent this happening again in the future.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby Rodion on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:17 am

2/7 = 38%? :o

That explains a lot.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:53 am

Rodion wrote:2/7 = 38%? :o

That explains a lot.


64/168 = 38%

Or do you work from midnight Sunday to midnight Friday in your (non-math-related) job?
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby John Deere on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:37 am

Wow there is a lot of evidence,. I for one think this crap needs to stop from every clan! It gets old guys! We at the PACK have struggled very bad because we CHOOSE not to play players that cant take there own turns! Yes we have to sit at times when players have things come up but are not abusing the system. We are in the middle of loosing our first war due to this and other things but so be it. We will loose with pride and know we lost to great players fairly! Its sad people cheat to win but hey, if it makes you feel better as a person..... That is not just too josko, but to all that feel the need to cheat. :)
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby SirSebstar on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:41 am

is all your evidence as reliable and equal to your math of my not being able to take my turn at 2012-11-18 19:22:34 and posting at Nov 19, 2012 8:03 pm. Which like you know is not 41 minutes but 1481 minutes later? So a full day plus 41 minutes?
Equally, other evidence (to the contrary)seems to be lacking, but then its not your job to invent counter evidence, you invent only what you want to see. sigh

Chariot of Fire wrote:Accused:

josko.ri
Moonchild

The accused are suspected of:

i) Systematic sitting abuse
ii) Entering a player into games in the knowledge he will be absent
iii) Gaining an unfair advantage in complex unlimited fort games

Game number(s):

Game 11960113*
Game 11960055*
Game 11960154
Game 11926485*
Game 11895784*
Game 11895783*
Game 11895782
Game 11859148
Game 11859147*
Game 11673703*
Game 11665183
Game 11590571
Game 11590570*

The above 13 games all featured sitting of Moonchild, with unlimited fort settings, and in addition there are 20 other tournament team games (not listed) featuring Moonchild that were set-up by KORT since early September. Total 33 games.

Comments:

i) Any experienced CC player will tell you that unlimited forts is a complex setting whose most difficult moves (and greatest input) are in Round 1. I have marked with a * against 8 of the 13 games above the instances where a KORT player - Moonchild in 7 of 8 - has been covered by the team's best player in the very first round.

ii) It is apparent (from game chat in Game 11558832) that since the beginning of September Moonchild has been unable to log in to CC unless from his work PC (see comment here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=179479&start=45#p3970685 which means for 38% of the week he is unable to take his own turns.

iii) KORT has a member list running to 30 players, approx 25-26 of whom are active. Why then are they putting a player into games who they know cannot play his own turns on such a regular basis.

iv) More alarmingly, why are 40% of the games he is entered in with unlimited forts, especially when such a high incidence of first round turns are not taken by him but by josko?

Some interesting info on the games (I've only covered the 13 unlimited forts games listed above, not the entire 33) as follows:

Game 11960113 - josko took Moonchild's first turn. Moonchild could have taken this himself on 23rd Nov but left it to josko to play later.
Game 11926485 - josko played his turn less than 3 hours after the preceding player, thus ensuring Moonchild's turn would fall due over the weekend. This is contrary to the remark made by josko contained here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=441&t=179479&start=45#p3970685 wherein he states in Pt.1 that he will stall his turn to avoid having to sit for Moonchild. Also in this game josko covered for Sir Sebstar in Round 1 - yet by remarkable coincidence Sir Sebstar was able to return to CC just 41 minutes later and post here: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=135788&p=3961622#p3961622
Game 11895784 - blue plays just 4 hours after the previous turn, thus ensuring Moonchild's turn will have to be covered over the weekend
Game 11895783 - turn fell due and could have been played on the 16th by Moonchild, yet it was left to josko
Game 11673703 - josko took his turn after just 82 minutes, again ensuring Moonchild's turn would have to be covered by him over the weekend
Game 11590570 - 23rd September (Sunday) Moonchild plays his own turn. So does he have Internet or not? Or was the sitting not posted in chat, and if so how many more instances of this have occurred? Also in this game another KORT player had his 1st turn taken (by Nimic) and subsequently josko sat again for Moonchild.

Make from it what you will, but on the evidence it would appear there is a routine practice of entering Moonchild in KORT challenge/tourney games when he is known to be absent for a great part of that time. And when 40% of those games involve unlimited forts - which josko conveniently covers - then it would appear an unfair advantage is being gained by KORT using these settings in conjunction with a practice of sitting abuse. So far, judging from the results, this has served them very well against AOC, Pack, Dynasty, OSA and again (just commencing) AOC.

Thank you

p.s. lots more examples of KORT's sitting practice in unlimited fort games may be seen here: Game 11037499 (josko sitting 1st turn vs IA), Game 11327526 (josko/Foxglove sitting for Astoriana when Astoriana had been online whilst his turn was due), plus several involving GLG where he covered for team mates.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby #1_stunna on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:06 am

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12:17:31 ‹Pixar› im gonna be fappin to that all night long
10:59:12 ‹rhp 1› holy hell... that did it.. I pissed myself
15:15:52 ‹Ace Rimmer› Sackett58, I think I may get some action this weekend
15:16:05 ‹Sackett58› Right hand or left Ace?
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby comic boy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:59 am

Sir Sebstar
How exactly does one error distract from a repeated pattern of turns covered by Josko ? One could easily assume that you were trying to muddy the waters , trying to cover something up even , dare I say perhaps attempting to defuse a potentially embarassing situation.
Now as a highly respected member of the moderating team Im certain that these things never remotely crossed your mind , just as Im certain that Moonchilds frequent and convenient absences were merely all unfortunate coincidences.
Do be aware though that there are many out there who are far more cynical and less trusting than little old me , they might be jumping to sinister conclusions. As I said before , whats done is done , all the explanations and excuses in the world wont change that , your energies are best spent therefore in ensuring it doesn't happen again.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby Leehar on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:16 pm

comic boy wrote:Sir Sebstar
How exactly does one error distract from a repeated pattern of turns covered by Josko ? One could easily assume that you were trying to muddy the waters , trying to cover something up even , dare I say perhaps attempting to defuse a potentially embarassing situation.

Or it could just be that if there's 1 mistake that he's picked up (Because it's one that related to him), how many others could have been deliberately inculcated to buff up this accusation?
Unlikely, but you can see how the cynicism you're expounding can be played both ways, specially considering the history between the 2 clans concerned, and the 2 respective parties as well.

With that being said, there is a case here in that "josko for Moonchild" happens a lot. S
My understanding of the accusation is that it mostly revolves around whether sitting for someone every weekend (2/7 days) is excessive and thus a 'gross abuse of the game'.

CoF's claim is that if it's known that he's going to be unavailable for such a relatively long time and prolonged period, Moonchild shouldn't be playing clan games at all. While Kort's reasoning is that it's unfair to exclude a player from such a crucial part of CC life as clan games, and that it's fine to sit for him when he's honestly unavailable and still plays the majority of the games himself.
It's up to the C&A Mods to draw the line here
Last edited by Leehar on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby comic boy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:31 pm

The salient point is indeed that " Josko for Moonchild '' has happened an awful lot , that is indisputable and it is in the interests of all that it stops forthwith.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby Rodion on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:41 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:
Rodion wrote:2/7 = 38%? :o

That explains a lot.


64/168 = 38%

Or do you work from midnight Sunday to midnight Friday in your (non-math-related) job?


I'm sorry. I don't really know when Moon enters and leaves work. You probably know a lot about croatian labour laws as well as Moon's specific schedule. No, I'm not being sarcastic. I actually admire your proven talent as a stalker.

Regardless, being "away from keyboard" 38% of the time does not mean what you're trying to imply, namely that he needs sitting 38% of the time. He can easily play all his games friday night* and not need a sitter for the next 24 hours (saturday night). He also does not need a sitter for turns that started sunday afternoon, as he'll be back monday morning*. The time frame in which he really can't play is pretty small (turns that start between saturday night and sunday morning - roughly). I also happen to know for a fact Josko tries to delay/hasten turns in such a way that Moon's turns will not fall in the weekend, thus avoiding to sit as much as feasibly possible.

* assumptions I believe to be somewhat accurate. For the precise information regarding when Moon leaves friday and enters monday, ask Chariot of Fire.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby MoB Deadly on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:18 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:Game number(s):

Game 11960113*
Game 11960055*
11960154 - This one does not seem to be the correct game number.
Game 11926485*
Game 11895784*
Game 11895783*
Game 11895782
Game 11859148
Game 11859147*
Game 11673703*
Game 11665183
Game 11590571
Game 11590570*
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby L M S on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:51 pm

Rodion wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:
Rodion wrote:2/7 = 38%? :o

That explains a lot.


64/168 = 38%

Or do you work from midnight Sunday to midnight Friday in your (non-math-related) job?


I'm sorry. I don't really know when Moon enters and leaves work. You probably know a lot about croatian labour laws as well as Moon's specific schedule. No, I'm not being sarcastic. I actually admire your proven talent as a stalker.

Regardless, being "away from keyboard" 38% of the time does not mean what you're trying to imply, namely that he needs sitting 38% of the time. He can easily play all his games friday night* and not need a sitter for the next 24 hours (saturday night). He also does not need a sitter for turns that started sunday afternoon, as he'll be back monday morning*. The time frame in which he really can't play is pretty small (turns that start between saturday night and sunday morning - roughly). I also happen to know for a fact Josko tries to delay/hasten turns in such a way that Moon's turns will not fall in the weekend, thus avoiding to sit as much as feasibly possible.

* assumptions I believe to be somewhat accurate. For the precise information regarding when Moon leaves friday and enters monday, ask Chariot of Fire.



So you are saying that as a clan, you know for a fact that Moon WILL always be unavailable at certain regularly scheduled times, yet put him in high profile games regardless of this? Is he just a place holder by name so josko doesn't go over the 20 game limit? Is it coincidence then, the particular settings in the majority of the games cited?
Seems like a fairly systematic method is in place here and a pretty convenient way to get your best player in as many games as possible.
I wouldn't buy my wife a car that didn't work 38% of the time even though I knew I'd be available to tow her home every Saturday night anyway.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Pending] DCR

Postby SirSebstar on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:02 pm

its an argument josko can never win can he?! He publicly states that he is sitting, he/moon had explained the situation upfront and agreement was made with people involved. as in people from the other clan.
its obviously not 38%. thats a blatant and misleading lie. it gets repeated even so,. Also, define highprofile games. Are those all games josko is involved with, or just all those with kort in it? Glad to see tofu is getting down to the red meat here.. sigh.

Remains the question if it is okay to sit for someone if its forseeable that he will or might miss turns.(wether or not agreement was made with the other parties involved)
I do think this (discussion)falls slightly outside the scope of C&A though.
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Medals: 95
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (3) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (23) General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (9) Training Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (4)
General Contribution (11)

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