Side stats: your opinion, of

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Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby ManBungalow on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:37 pm

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Side stats were introduced in November 2009, and actually proved to be quite a controversial update.

They don't provide any information which cannot be found by looking at the map/game log. In fact, they're really there so you don't have to count up the number of troops your opponent has in a World 2.1 game.

Some might argue that estimating troop numbers is a game skill. Pre-stats, anyway. And similarly, putting the extra minute of attention into a game by checking the log to see what's happened and how many regions have been taken makes (made) for generally better moves.

Did the update detract from good strategy in that sense? And for those who joined after the update, how might it be different playing without the stats?

And bear in mind that such numbers are all provided by BoB, and more. That leads us on to ponder, "do add-ons provide an unfair advantage"?
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby MoB Deadly on Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:08 pm

Nice topic,

I personally feel this site, which is supposed to be an enjoyable game, would become much, much, more of a mundane chore if I had to track all these things manually.

+ I like to play random map, I would be much much less inclined to play random map if I didn't have the side stats
+ If I ever get behind on my games and need to take my turns quickly because of real life situations, its nice to just glance over at side stats to get a quick overveiw and take my turn. This would be very difficult without stats.
+ Account sitters would be in the dark without side stats. I sit occasionally, and I find it hard to be super helpful. I couldn't imagine without stats
+ I like to spend more time conquering regions and clicking the assault button, rather than trying to estimate how many troops a player has.
+ Side stats make playing brand new maps easier to understand.
+ Noob players may not add up Troops Due on their own, and may be unhappy with their experience or accuse players of cheating.
+ Dont know why I used + signs
+ I am bored
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:51 pm

I think since the introduction of side stats actually helped me win a number of games, and evaluate opponent strength and weakness. In terminator, I found myself getting more terminations, and in team games I found myself bolstering up my weak teammates more. I don't often have a lot of time to make my turns, so bringing the information about of game log arithmetic definitely saved me time and improved my gameplay overall I think.

Additionally, it is a nice bit balance to those who use scripts which categorize and describe even more nuanced information about current state a game, and those who never did.


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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:16 pm

Having to manually do stuff like bookkeeping is pointless. Even great generals would have scribes that work for them.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby IcePack on Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:18 pm

I like it for all above reasons + more.
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby chapcrap on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:48 am

ManB is a minimalist!!

I was here before the stats and it did force me to check the log. To me, this is on the level of something like incorporating an addon, like clickies, or BOB into the site proper. Anything like that should be added, IMO because it levels the playing field for people that didn't previously had use of the addons or even know about them.

Now, there is something to be said for doing your own analysis of games and I think that still stands true. But being forced to add up all those numbers in a sunny game is pretty pointless.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Gilligan on Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:42 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Having to manually do stuff like bookkeeping is pointless. Even great generals would have scribes that work for them.


Haha, great comparison!
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby greenoaks on Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:12 pm

and underneath stats are really handy too
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby generalhead on Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:29 pm

When new players join CC they don't know to read the log or even check the territory count. This leads to unbalanced game play by "noobs" because they might attack the weaker players leaving the game unbalanced for some one else to win. I believe the side stats make it easier to check the balance of the game that way unbalanced moves are not made.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:14 am

All I really want to know is, did ManB win that game? Looks pretty close between him and HCI.

Leave the side stats. I really do not have time to look all that up.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Gilligan on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:23 am

koontz1973 wrote:All I really want to know is, did ManB win that game? Looks pretty close between him and HCI.

Leave the side stats. I really do not have time to look all that up.


When it comes to hydrochloric acid, you generally lose.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby ManBungalow on Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:53 am

Gilligan wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:All I really want to know is, did ManB win that game? Looks pretty close between him and HCI.

Leave the side stats. I really do not have time to look all that up.


When it comes to hydrochloric acid, you generally lose.

Basically.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby tj755 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:35 am

I like the side stats because sometimes scrolling down is too much work. Is there a way to make the side stats my default?
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Gilligan on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:55 pm

tj755 wrote:I like the side stats because sometimes scrolling down is too much work. Is there a way to make the side stats my default?


Go to Game Settings on the left hand side.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby HighlanderAttack on Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:50 pm

I like side stats--especially when I used to play 200 games at a time
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:15 pm

I myself am a purist as well. If you could make it so that all of these things had to be done "manually" I would be all for it since I think that finding these stats are a skill in themselves and certainly separate the good players from the excellent ones. The problem is that if they were undone, people would just make their own programs. You never know who is using what calculator as it stands and if auto stats like these were taken away it would just create a bigger advantage for those who use programs. :(
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Foxglove on Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:06 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:I myself am a purist as well. If you could make it so that all of these things had to be done "manually" I would be all for it since I think that finding these stats are a skill in themselves and certainly separate the good players from the excellent ones. The problem is that if they were undone, people would just make their own programs. You never know who is using what calculator as it stands and if auto stats like these were taken away it would just create a bigger advantage for those who use programs. :(


Why would people *not* use a script if it provides useful information?!

I try to put as little effort as possible into doing repetitive, boring tasks - particularly tasks that can be accomplished more quickly and with less room for error by code! Counting territories taken in a foggy game log doesn't require thinking, it just requires time. I would suppose people who claim to dislike side stats are also the same type of people who eschew any other kind of time-saving technology. Like word processors. Or dishwashers. Or calculators.

I prefer to put my time to more productive purposes. Like browsing reddit. Or daydreaming. Or decorating cookies.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby chapcrap on Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:19 pm

Foxglove wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I myself am a purist as well. If you could make it so that all of these things had to be done "manually" I would be all for it since I think that finding these stats are a skill in themselves and certainly separate the good players from the excellent ones. The problem is that if they were undone, people would just make their own programs. You never know who is using what calculator as it stands and if auto stats like these were taken away it would just create a bigger advantage for those who use programs. :(


Why would people *not* use a script if it provides useful information?!

I try to put as little effort as possible into doing repetitive, boring tasks - particularly tasks that can be accomplished more quickly and with less room for error by code! Counting territories taken in a foggy game log doesn't require thinking, it just requires time. I would suppose people who claim to dislike side stats are also the same type of people who eschew any other kind of time-saving technology. Like word processors. Or dishwashers. Or calculators.

I prefer to put my time to more productive purposes. Like browsing reddit. Or daydreaming. Or decorating cookies.

I love dishwashers.

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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:22 pm

Foxglove wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I myself am a purist as well. If you could make it so that all of these things had to be done "manually" I would be all for it since I think that finding these stats are a skill in themselves and certainly separate the good players from the excellent ones. The problem is that if they were undone, people would just make their own programs. You never know who is using what calculator as it stands and if auto stats like these were taken away it would just create a bigger advantage for those who use programs. :(


Why would people *not* use a script if it provides useful information?!

I try to put as little effort as possible into doing repetitive, boring tasks - particularly tasks that can be accomplished more quickly and with less room for error by code! Counting territories taken in a foggy game log doesn't require thinking, it just requires time. I would suppose people who claim to dislike side stats are also the same type of people who eschew any other kind of time-saving technology. Like word processors. Or dishwashers. Or calculators.

I prefer to put my time to more productive purposes. Like browsing reddit. Or daydreaming. Or decorating cookies.


Are you disagreeing with me? I can't tell as I'm not entirely sure what one has to do with the other. I'm saying that it should be all or nothing, all programs for all or none for all.
As far as using programs that aren't readily available to all other players, yeah I think it's an uneven playing field. The problem with your analogy to dishwashers is that there is something on here called rank which can be misleading if a player uses scripts not used by most. Lets say two people go into separate rooms to do some arithmetic problems to see who is more skilled. One person goes in and comes out in a few minutes having answered all the questions correctly and everyone says "wow" while the next person comes out a half hour later and gets a few problems wrong. "Worse at arithmetic!" the crowd exclaims. Meanwhile the first person reaches into his/her pocket: "Oops, forgot to turn off my calculater".
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby trevor33 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:58 pm

2009? Seems longer.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Chariot of Fire on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:31 am

Funkyterrance wrote:I myself am a purist as well. If you could make it so that all of these things had to be done "manually" I would be all for it since I think that finding these stats are a skill in themselves and certainly separate the good players from the excellent ones. The problem is that if they were undone, people would just make their own programs. You never know who is using what calculator as it stands and if auto stats like these were taken away it would just create a bigger advantage for those who use programs. :(


+1

Preferred the old days, pre-BOB (which I still don't use, much to the chagrin of my team mates as I can't take snaps). It is good to rely on one's own memory or spend 10-15 minutes poring over the map, the log and the situation before making a judgment call - that's why I still do it, it gives one a better feel for the game and the tendency of the dice I think.

If I was playing chess and had a computer that could tell me what my next move should be I wouldn't follow it, simply because I'd lose whatever grasp on strategy I had. It's what worries me about this....because somewhere down the road someone will create a script that can propose your best move with an immediate calculation of odds - something that imo should be left to the player's own determination.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Seulessliathan on Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:11 am

Does anyone remember the title of this movie?
2 guys play chess over a couple of weeks, each day a turn or something like that, and one day one guy notice that the other guy plays the moves a computer tells him? At first, the guy feels cheated, but then the other guy explains that the computer is just an addition to his own mind and he programmed all what the computer knows.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Chariot of Fire on Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:17 am

Yeah, was it called Weekend in Dubrovnik or something like that?
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Master Fenrir on Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:05 am

Foxglove wrote:Why would people *not* use a script if it provides useful information?!

I try to put as little effort as possible into doing repetitive, boring tasks - particularly tasks that can be accomplished more quickly and with less room for error by code! Counting territories taken in a foggy game log doesn't require thinking, it just requires time. I would suppose people who claim to dislike side stats are also the same type of people who eschew any other kind of time-saving technology. Like word processors. Or dishwashers. Or calculators.

I prefer to put my time to more productive purposes. Like browsing reddit. Or daydreaming. Or decorating cookies.


I've had a similar argument about technology with my brother. It ended when I back-handed him across the mouth with my abacus.
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Re: Side stats: your opinion, of

Postby Arama86n on Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:08 am

Master Fenrir wrote:
Foxglove wrote:Why would people *not* use a script if it provides useful information?!

I try to put as little effort as possible into doing repetitive, boring tasks - particularly tasks that can be accomplished more quickly and with less room for error by code! Counting territories taken in a foggy game log doesn't require thinking, it just requires time. I would suppose people who claim to dislike side stats are also the same type of people who eschew any other kind of time-saving technology. Like word processors. Or dishwashers. Or calculators.

I prefer to put my time to more productive purposes. Like browsing reddit. Or daydreaming. Or decorating cookies.


I've had a similar argument about technology with my brother. It ended when I back-handed him across the mouth with my abacus.


And they say violence doesn't solve anything :D
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