The Official Clan Sitting Rules (Old Version)

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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby jetsetwilly on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:18 pm

GoranZ wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:2, Emergency cover may only be given if the person really is in danger of missing a turn. Therefore a turn can only be covered if there is an hour or less left on the clock. But steps must be taken to contact the player before hand.
1 hour or less will mean that we need to give user passwords to bunch of clan members(instead to 1-2) just to be safe. RL emergencies usually last over 1 hour so limiting the time of supervision to 1 hour will directly force the clans to use multiple players to supervise 1 clan member... But the idea behind these rules is to simplify the process of clan games supervision not to complicate it. Can this be increased to 3 or 4 hours?

Nicky15 wrote:5, You must not be in another persons account for any reason, other than to cover turns while that person is on vacation. Adding to chat in a game you are not in for example will not be allowed. You must also not give permission for anyone to wander in and out of your account at their will. Take care of your account. What happens with it is your responsibility.

Simple question... Is it allowed to write in the chat what I have done and why while I was sitting for someone?

Goran


On point 1, the initial plan is 1 hour. That might be reviewed in future if it is not practical

On point 2, absolutely yes the sitter can say what they did and why.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby freakns on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:21 pm

jetsetwilly wrote:
HardAttack wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:
Swifte wrote:In light of the recent josko/moonchild case, 'vast majority' is still too vague. Please spell out the following: If a player can NEVER take turns on the weekends, are they hereby banished from clan games? This needs to be specifically addressed... and I am sure it affects more than just moonchild.


Knowing in advance that you can not takes turns at the weekends is absolutely not an acceptable situation for a clan war and any player knowingly being entered into games in this situation would be putting their clan in breach of the rules.


one can easily break this...intentionally/unconciously, this can easily be broken down...how ?
say one knows he will not be there in the weekend but why s/he should say he won't be around in weekends, but simply when it is time, leaves a note in game chat indicating his/her absense weekend, and xxx player is going to be sitting for me...Then next week, another note, damn again this weekend i have got to leave the town to there, whereever, this xxx player is gonna sit my account...So, in theory there is no rule abusing, but in practice it is what we have got in the socalled josko's case what ppl call it with that name...

so, what i wonder to know is, how ever you mods will be able to differ these two nuances ?
IMO still unclear and open area to be well defined.


Take me for the example, assume that i very well know that i am gonna be out weekend, but join in the game and when it is weekend i can very well picture it to be a new to me that i didnt know weekend i had something urgent to go, to do, that then i ll need someone to sit in my acc.

How are you going to be able to differ the good occasion from abuse in this case ?


You will have to trust the CD's to make a judgement call in this situation. Taking 1 spontaneous weekend away is hardly unusual but if a player is doing this regularly then we would decide on whether we believed this was a breach of the rules.


in this case you would put CDs into some kind of supreme referee role, which is bad, because no matter how good referee is, he is always wrong in the eye of beholder.

i think you are looking way too much into this. if i want, i can take turns for majority of my clan, take turns and lead games im not in, and beat most if not all the clans on this site(and yes, i am that good). but what would be upside of doing this?! my e-penis would be bigger? if someone is doing this, then let him/her, who the f*ck cares?
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:23 pm

I think most people want to see team vs team, not who has the single best star. That's why events try to feature depth or players not in 100% of games to begin with.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby freakns on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:27 pm

IcePack wrote:I think most people want to see team vs team, not who has the single best star. That's why events try to feature depth or players not in 100% of games to begin with.

absolutely. and that is why i enjoy watching my clanmates games and if ppl are like this(and i believe they are), then they too would not like to take 100% of turns?!
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby niMic on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:35 pm

So Moonchild, who has been deemed not to be breaking any rules on CC, is from now on barred from playing in any clan war as long as his situation remains?
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby HardAttack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:13 pm

jetsetwilly wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:2, Emergency cover may only be given if the person really is in danger of missing a turn. Therefore a turn can only be covered if there is an hour or less left on the clock. But steps must be taken to contact the player before hand.
1 hour or less will mean that we need to give user passwords to bunch of clan members(instead to 1-2) just to be safe. RL emergencies usually last over 1 hour so limiting the time of supervision to 1 hour will directly force the clans to use multiple players to supervise 1 clan member... But the idea behind these rules is to simplify the process of clan games supervision not to complicate it. Can this be increased to 3 or 4 hours?

Nicky15 wrote:5, You must not be in another persons account for any reason, other than to cover turns while that person is on vacation. Adding to chat in a game you are not in for example will not be allowed. You must also not give permission for anyone to wander in and out of your account at their will. Take care of your account. What happens with it is your responsibility.

Simple question... Is it allowed to write in the chat what I have done and why while I was sitting for someone?

Goran


On point 1, the initial plan is 1 hour. That might be reviewed in future if it is not practical

On point 2, absolutely yes the sitter can say what they did and why.



Please review it, cos it really will come with problems sir. =D>
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Bones2484 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:21 pm

Nice job.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Rodion on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:39 pm

While I do appreciate the effort that was put into this and the idea behind having more rules to define sitting practices in clan games, I do not like the final product.

Nicky15 wrote:1, We have no clear and defined rule of what is and is not allowed within the clan arena. Therefore judging cases of reported abuse is very difficult. And it is hard to come up with consistent rulings.


The new rule does not change anything. Abuse is still unclear and undefined.

Nicky15 wrote:Finally The Cds will not be throwing the book at people for minor things. We don't want reports like "Joe blogs covered a turn an 1h 30 mins before it was due to expire" minor things may get noted.


Heavily disagree. You made a rule, so enforce it. Every single time. Even if the turn started with 01:00:01 to go.

You've gone through the trouble of creating a rule in order to make things more defined and clear, just to throw it all away by saying some instances will be punished while others will not.

Nicky15 wrote:These games must not include the unlimited setting, or any other setting where an advantage could potentially be had.


Again with the subjectivity. For instance, an advantage can potentially be had by having a 3,000-point brigadier sitting for a 2,999-point colonel in a Doodle Earth quads game. The unlimited part of the rule reeks of Anti-Josko, whereas the rest of it will allow for anyone to argue that a potential advantage was accrued.

While I'm here, I agree with someone that said "agreements between clans" should be unrestricted. Lower seeded clans might not have the slightest interest in sitting abuse rules, so why bind two clans that "just wanna have fun" to a rule they dislike?
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby TheMissionary on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:48 pm

I disagree with 1 hour. Sometimes i get into a project and will not make it home in time to play, so I text a clan member and ask them to cover up until a certain time. If that time gets close to passing I'll do the same process again.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:01 pm

TheMissionary wrote:I disagree with 1 hour. Sometimes i get into a project and will not make it home in time to play, so I text a clan member and ask them to cover up until a certain time. If that time gets close to passing I'll do the same process again.


I think that something like this should have been considered as well, instead of that person having to stay on for 8 hours waiting for each individual game getting down to an hour, being able to cover the expected delay or problem time frame until you expect to be able to get back on.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby betiko on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:04 pm

I don't really agree with all this. I don't see why a game should be determined on top of dice, drop, starting position ect also by missed turns. I don't see why we should make all that fuss because for whatever reason a teammate can't play his turns. It's like if in any sport you wouldn't allow a replacement when a player is injured. Some of you guys want to treat this as injury = red card. Who isn't being good sports here, the ones who don't mind winning thanks to missed turns by the opponents, or the ones who take teammate turns when these are about to miss.. (I'm not talking about the rules by itself but some reactions I've read)
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby GoranZ on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:13 pm

Nicky15 wrote:3, Sitting for the purpose of covering an extended break from the site can carry on as normal, turns can be taken whenever it is convenient, the sitter can add to chat, but the player on vacation must not take turns themselves during this time or add to game chat. Account sitting is for holidays, vacations and emergencies only.

Can extended break be defined in hours?
The main problem for me is this: Clan mate goes on a trip(36 to 48 hours). In RL this is not holiday or vacation but if it is only emergency I need to log in hourly on his account in order to take his turns in clan games which doesn't have much sense.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:13 pm

When I get home from work I will respond to many people here. Please be patient.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby eggrollonedolla on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:14 pm

niMic wrote:So Moonchild, who has been deemed not to be breaking any rules on CC, is from now on barred from playing in any clan war as long as his situation remains?


I think this sums it up nicely. Life isn't fair for 100% of people 100% of the time. Sure it sucks for him but its the hand he got dealt.

as far as the one hr goes I think 2 hrs would be better
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:23 pm

Nicky15 wrote:These rules will come into force Monday after we have had the chance to pm all clan leaders and make sure everyone is aware.


I think Monday is a bit optomistic, with no PM's being sent out yet and just getting posted on a Thursday. Questions are still being asked, clarifications desired, less active forum users might not even "get the memo" by Monday.

Not that it affects me personally much, but still a large group (50 clans...20 ish clan members in each, 1000 players need to get the memo give or take) should have a little "leeway" time.

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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Foxglove on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:30 pm

Nicky15 wrote:No one should be put in for a game unless they can take the vast majority of their turns. Agreements still can be made between clans in regards to absences, both clans must agree. These games must not include the unlimited setting, or any other setting where an advantage could potentially be had.


Can you please explain what the unlimited setting has to do with anything described above?
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:13 pm

Hello All. I will try to address all the points so bare with me. First off Thanks to Nicky for spear heading this project.

HardAttack wrote:last 1 hour to cover the turn is, IMO a bit exaggeration and over reaction here. It should be relaxed to a minimum to last 2 hours... i think 2 hours is a good well call... Last hour can come
with/bring some new problems is what i think in the first look...

major abuses are not basing this last 1-2 hour thing but something else than that...so dont pack everyone in the same basket threading as if we all are potential abusers, then do not bring clan wars to be a pain but lets keep the warmth as much as we can for the sake of good taste...


Here is the thing. Sure it is nice to talk over moves with teammates, but surely all of us are around at some point during the day sans vacations. If there is a chance you will not be on to take your turn in the last hours do it early. Sure things in life happen, but do not wait so long that those things get in the way. When I first joined the clan scene you would talk things over with the team, but if you could not you just did your best and made a play. I know most all clans are guilty to a degree of waiting around for a teammate to talk over the move with. Some clans do it more than others. This practice of "well I was waiting to talk with a teammate about a move and then forgot my turn" has to stop. Maybe you did not forget. Maybe you fell asleep, lost net or a number of other things. Do not bleed the clock. Take turns early in the time frame given and eliminate the chance for something to happen. Surely we are not all slaves to other team mates. I am not saying not to talk with your clan mates about moves, but do not let waiting to talk to them cause you to miss or need to be covered. If a situation arises where you really have an emergency then the last hour is when the turn should be taken.


Vid_FISO wrote:If it's not covered by rule 3 then even waiting until the final hour as per rule 2 shouldn't be permitted.

If any player doesn't have a known impending absence then no-one should be aware of that person's log in details to make a save at the 23rd hour.

In case of real time emergencies, there are things such as email and mobile phones. Over-sleeping is not a good reason for someone to make a move on someone else's behalf.



While some might have this thought we all know real life happens sometimes. We still want this to be a fun game. We do not want to become nazi's about this game. Emergency sitting is still going to be allowed.



greenoaks wrote:is this a must do requirement?

4, Post to say that you have covered a turn


i certainly hope so.



Yes this will be required. Random check's on players will be done so please remember to post when you sit.


HardAttack wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:
Swifte wrote:In light of the recent josko/moonchild case, 'vast majority' is still too vague. Please spell out the following: If a player can NEVER take turns on the weekends, are they hereby banished from clan games? This needs to be specifically addressed... and I am sure it affects more than just moonchild.


Knowing in advance that you can not takes turns at the weekends is absolutely not an acceptable situation for a clan war and any player knowingly being entered into games in this situation would be putting their clan in breach of the rules.


one can easily break this...intentionally/unconciously, this can easily be broken down...how ?
say one knows he will not be there in the weekend but why s/he should say he won't be around in weekends, but simply when it is time, leaves a note in game chat indicating his/her absense weekend, and xxx player is going to be sitting for me...Then next week, another note, damn again this weekend i have got to leave the town to there, whereever, this xxx player is gonna sit my account...So, in theory there is no rule abusing, but in practice it is what we have got in the socalled josko's case what ppl call it with that name...

so, what i wonder to know is, how ever you mods will be able to differ these two nuances ?
IMO still unclear and open area to be well defined.


Take me for the example, assume that i very well know that i am gonna be out weekend, but join in the game and when it is weekend i can very well picture it to be a new to me that i didnt know weekend i had something urgent to go, to do, that then i ll need someone to sit in my acc.

How are you going to be able to differ the good occasion from abuse in this case ?


Those caught violating the rules will be dealt with swiftly.

Foxglove wrote:
Leehar wrote:
Foxglove wrote:
jetsetwilly wrote:
Swifte wrote:In light of the recent josko/moonchild case, 'vast majority' is still too vague. Please spell out the following: If a player can NEVER take turns on the weekends, are they hereby banished from clan games? This needs to be specifically addressed... and I am sure it affects more than just moonchild.


Knowing in advance that you can not takes turns at the weekends is absolutely not an acceptable situation for a clan war and any player knowingly being entered into games in this situation would be putting their clan in breach of the rules.


What if a person is away for one weekend per month?

I'd think it'd be better for the CD's not to be bogged down in answering all these 'What if' questions?
The Rules and Guidelines here allow them a framework on how to deal with cases, and when cases of infractions come to light, they can deliberate on the matter and evaluate the situations on their merits, since it's very hard to secondguess what would happen right now if this or that was the case.


But guidelines without specifics will just cause more drama than we already have. :(

Also, by these rules, I probably will need to quit CC from approximately March - September, because during those months I travel for about one weekend a month. Awesome.

Edit: Ok - that was perhaps overly dramatic. But really, all of the text in the first post can be summarized thusly: "All normal site account sitting rules apply, with the additional restriction that emergency turns are only allowed within 1 hour. We will subjectively judge, using common-sense, all other account-sitting issues and apply subjective punishment."

Is that correct?


We are going to look into the weekend sitting. One weekend a month when you travel is not going to be an issue. If you need it every weekend like jet stated then it will be an issue. If we find that too many people are effected by this then we will review it at a later time. This was one of the hot topics we came into when debating these rules out.

@ Fox your statement pretty much sums it up. If you sit for someone and take the turn with 1 hour 25 minutes left and do it once, I do not think anybody is going to care. if you break the 1 hour rule constantly that is something else. This rule was put into place to give the person every chance to take their own turn if possible. Do not wait to the last minute to take your turns people. As Jet pointed out if we see 1 hour is not working well at all, then we might revise it, but do not plan on it.



IcePack wrote:I think most people want to see team vs team, not who has the single best star. That's why events try to feature depth or players not in 100% of games to begin with.


The Idea of a clan is team play. The idea is not to have one person or a few people playing all the turns. Your team is only as strong as your weakest member.


niMic wrote:So Moonchild, who has been deemed not to be breaking any rules on CC, is from now on barred from playing in any clan war as long as his situation remains?



Unfortunately while Moon did not break any rules we as clans are deeming this not acceptable right now. This might be looked into again soon, so stay tuned.


Rodion wrote:While I do appreciate the effort that was put into this and the idea behind having more rules to define sitting practices in clan games, I do not like the final product.

Nicky15 wrote:1, We have no clear and defined rule of what is and is not allowed within the clan arena. Therefore judging cases of reported abuse is very difficult. And it is hard to come up with consistent rulings.


The new rule does not change anything. Abuse is still unclear and undefined.

Nicky15 wrote:Finally The Cds will not be throwing the book at people for minor things. We don't want reports like "Joe blogs covered a turn an 1h 30 mins before it was due to expire" minor things may get noted.


Heavily disagree. You made a rule, so enforce it. Every single time. Even if the turn started with 01:00:01 to go.

You've gone through the trouble of creating a rule in order to make things more defined and clear, just to throw it all away by saying some instances will be punished while others will not.

Nicky15 wrote:These games must not include the unlimited setting, or any other setting where an advantage could potentially be had.


Again with the subjectivity. For instance, an advantage can potentially be had by having a 3,000-point brigadier sitting for a 2,999-point colonel in a Doodle Earth quads game. The unlimited part of the rule reeks of Anti-Josko, whereas the rest of it will allow for anyone to argue that a potential advantage was accrued.

While I'm here, I agree with someone that said "agreements between clans" should be unrestricted. Lower seeded clans might not have the slightest interest in sitting abuse rules, so why bind two clans that "just wanna have fun" to a rule they dislike?



Rodion let me address a few points here.
1. We do not want to be Nazi's about things, but we do want rules in place. As I stated above, doing it once will likely not have any action taken, but doing it frequently will.
2.At the settings part, we will surely take a look into that a bit more. Nobody is gonna get singled out here.



IcePack wrote:
TheMissionary wrote:I disagree with 1 hour. Sometimes i get into a project and will not make it home in time to play, so I text a clan member and ask them to cover up until a certain time. If that time gets close to passing I'll do the same process again.


I think that something like this should have been considered as well, instead of that person having to stay on for 8 hours waiting for each individual game getting down to an hour, being able to cover the expected delay or problem time frame until you expect to be able to get back on.


As of right now the 1 hour rule will stand. If we see this is causing too many problems it can be relooked at. In response to Missionary, do not put yourself in a situation where that comes up. Plan ahead of time. Do not rely on your teammates to cover for you, but rather take the turns yourself. Sure life happens but as it stands in the case as you described your clan mates will have to wait till the last hour to take those turns. How do we as CD's know you will be out till time X? That opens up room for people to lie.

betiko wrote:I don't really agree with all this. I don't see why a game should be determined on top of dice, drop, starting position ect also by missed turns. I don't see why we should make all that fuss because for whatever reason a teammate can't play his turns. It's like if in any sport you wouldn't allow a replacement when a player is injured. Some of you guys want to treat this as injury = red card. Who isn't being good sports here, the ones who don't mind winning thanks to missed turns by the opponents, or the ones who take teammate turns when these are about to miss.. (I'm not talking about the rules by itself but some reactions I've read)


It is simple. Take your own turns and you will not have to worry about this. Your analogy does not make sense. If I put a player in for a play then he fails his assignment, that is like a player missing a turn on CC. Sometimes that missed assignment can cost the whole game. Nobody wants to win a game via a missed turn but sometimes things happen we cannot control. Take responsibility for your own turns and actions.

GoranZ wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:3, Sitting for the purpose of covering an extended break from the site can carry on as normal, turns can be taken whenever it is convenient, the sitter can add to chat, but the player on vacation must not take turns themselves during this time or add to game chat. Account sitting is for holidays, vacations and emergencies only.

Can extended break be defined in hours?
The main problem for me is this: Clan mate goes on a trip(36 to 48 hours). In RL this is not holiday or vacation but if it is only emergency I need to log in hourly on his account in order to take his turns in clan games which doesn't have much sense.



Extended time would be anything that is planned such as a 24 to 36 time frame away from the PC. In a case like this I would ask to be sat for 48 hours so I have some time to get back and get settled before taking CC turns. The 1 hour rule does not apply here.


IcePack wrote:
Nicky15 wrote:These rules will come into force Monday after we have had the chance to pm all clan leaders and make sure everyone is aware.


I think Monday is a bit optomistic, with no PM's being sent out yet and just getting posted on a Thursday. Questions are still being asked, clarifications desired, less active forum users might not even "get the memo" by Monday.

Not that it affects me personally much, but still a large group (50 clans...20 ish clan members in each, 1000 players need to get the memo give or take) should have a little "leeway" time.

IcePack



Monday is the date we wish to have these take effect, but ofc we will use common sense with this deadline. So with that said tell everybody you know. I suggest leaders send out a mass PM to those in your own clans so everybody can read the rules.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby perchorin on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:16 pm

What's to prevent someone from "going on vacation" or "having a family emergency" every weekend?
Otherwise I'm a fan of the rules as presented here. Nice work team!
Oh, and I'd like it even more if it was 2 hours.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:19 pm

perchorin wrote:What's to prevent someone from "going on vacation" or "having a family emergency" every weekend?
Otherwise I'm a fan of the rules as presented here. Nice work team!



Cases like this will be looked into on a case by case basis. We want people to have flexibility but also we want people to take responsibility for their own actions. If we find people abusing the rules they will be dealt with swiftly.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby BGtheBrain on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:35 pm

Excellent responses from Bruce.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby L M S on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:47 pm

BGtheBrain wrote:Excellent responses from Bruce.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.


I agree, for what its worth.
We just need to learn work within the new rules; I don't see a problem with any of this, there is nothing outrageous. Its nice that something is written down, imo. There are clans that will need to adjust their modus operandi a bit and I for one, am glad we will all be on the same page.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby IcePack on Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:06 pm

Thanks Bruce. Yes we did already send out mass pm's and forum posts (and will do again on monday as a reminder) and figured it would be "flexible" I just thought it might be a little early. NP

Tho only thing I really see as a bit burdensome (tho I understand your saying its opening the door for lies etc, and really only applies to the clan games) is the waiting for 1 hour.
There are times in certain fields of work (like mine) where my 8 hour shift turns into 12 or 16 pretty easily. Even if i played the night before, sometimes i am stuck texting someone to check until X hour when I can get home and its generally late, so it would be really annoying for any sitter to have to wait to the 1 hour mark each game because something happened.

That said, I'm sure there are some ways we can (try) to adjust and it shouldn't be a huge deal. Otherwise, everything else seems reasonable. I don't believe there will be much change for us at all as a clan.

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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:13 pm

cooldeals wrote:So if I understand this right. A clan mate has an emergency (e.g. I have to take my kid to the doctor or I got called into work I won't be able to look at the site for 6 hours). Under rule 3 someone can take turns that fall in that 6 hour window at one time and doesn't have to wait within the 1 hour time limit from rule 2?

Also, I think clans should be allowed to dictate their own sitting rules for a war. Some clans that aren't in the top 5-10 may not care about as many restrictions (and probably aren't abusing sitting either).



Real life emergencies happen so it is best to take your turns as soon as you can so these things do not get in the way of turns. Now if it does come up like such then the 1 hour rule applies. Weather a clan is top 10 or last in the rankings all rules still apply. No exceptions will be made for any clans.
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby Bruceswar on Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:54 pm

I should add. Feel free to direct any hate mail to me. Thanks!
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Re: The Offical Clan Sitting Rules

Postby benga on Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:07 am

LOL I ust feel now OSA has been violated and how convenient rules apply after the weekend :)
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