Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Symmetry on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:30 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:So- the Holocaust- probably not Woodrow Wilson's fault, more the Nazis.

/thread


Did Woodrow Wilson share any similarities with Nazi/Hitler philosophies? Perhaps the whole "master race" thingy?


However racist Wilson may have been, I'm pretty sure he wasn't at the Wannasee conference outlining the Final Solution.
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Re:

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:44 pm

Ok, time to clear up some confusion. It's gone on long enough.

2dimes wrote:America > Nazi Germany therefore Hitler = American.

I think I get it now.


Hitler never spent a considerable portion of his life living in the US. The examples I gave (Sir Walter Scott and Alexander Graham Bell) did. Stop trolling.

Symmetry wrote:So- the Holocaust- probably not Woodrow Wilson's fault, more the Nazis.

/thread


Except you miss the point entirely. The Nazis were convinced that a)there is a place called "Germany" and b)it should be populated by a race called Germans. However, we know, through history and genetics that c) there is no such place called Germany and d) there is no such race as Germans. So, if a and b are correct, it only follows naturally e) that Jews do not belong and must be exterminated.

So no choice of any particular people living in Europe at the time caused the holocaust. It was a natural byproduct of nationalism. Not just any nationalism though. The bullshit nationalism that Woodrow tried to puke all over Europe. By inventing German Identity; by teaching that a) and b) are true, even though they clearly are not; by purposely and disgracefully ruining the map of Europe until the present day, Woodrow Wilson DIRECTLY caused not only the holocaust but every single problem in Europe, and the world, until the present day.
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Re: Re:

Postby Iliad on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:42 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Ok, time to clear up some confusion. It's gone on long enough.

2dimes wrote:America > Nazi Germany therefore Hitler = American.

I think I get it now.


Hitler never spent a considerable portion of his life living in the US. The examples I gave (Sir Walter Scott and Alexander Graham Bell) did. Stop trolling.

Symmetry wrote:So- the Holocaust- probably not Woodrow Wilson's fault, more the Nazis.

/thread


Except you miss the point entirely. The Nazis were convinced that a)there is a place called "Germany" and b)it should be populated by a race called Germans. However, we know, through history and genetics that c) there is no such place called Germany and d) there is no such race as Germans. So, if a and b are correct, it only follows naturally e) that Jews do not belong and must be exterminated.

Firstly, nationalism and the concept of nations is real. It's not a mathematical or a scientific factor, but it is certainly a social one and an important part of a person's identity. I see you've completely ignored my post before. Sigh.
DoomYoshi wrote:So no choice of any particular people living in Europe at the time caused the holocaust. It was a natural byproduct of nationalism. Not just any nationalism though. The bullshit nationalism that Woodrow tried to puke all over Europe. By inventing German Identity; by teaching that a) and b) are true, even though they clearly are not; by purposely and disgracefully ruining the map of Europe until the present day, Woodrow Wilson DIRECTLY caused not only the holocaust but every single problem in Europe, and the world, until the present day.

How ridiculously Amerocentric that you think Wilson created nationalism. No, it wasn't. IF you are actually interested in nationalism and politics, check out Mackinder, and then Haushofer and the field of geopolitics. It was from that the concept of Lebensbraum emerged.

Americans did not invent nationalism, German identity predated Wilson by a fair margin. Check out Heimat, a german concept of home that's particularly pertinent to its nationalism. Also Napoleonic wars and conscription and its effect on nationalism. And again google Benedict Anderson and why the printing press gave root to modern nations. Not this half baked absolute bullshit that a man who rose to power in America, about 50 years after the unification of Germany somehow created the idea of Germany.
DoomYoshi wrote:Woodrow Wilson DIRECTLY caused not only the holocaust but every single problem in Europe, and the world, until the present day.

Oh boy. That's kinda beyond words. That you think Wilson directly caused holocaust is just unbelievable. No Wilson did not create nationalism. By definition it's kinda hard for one man to create a collective attachment to a concept. It's also terrible Big Man history that's kinda outdated, but that's slightly beside the point.

Nationalism, its roots and effects are a fascinating and complex thing. If you think you have a concrete grasp of it already you will make idiotic posts like these. I award you no points.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:10 am

Ok, well regardless of whether Woodrow actually invented German identity, if he did, he was directly responsible for the holocaust.

It's not a mathematical or a scientific factor, but it is certainly a social one and an important part of a person's identity

This is the problem. The fact that this statement is true makes the Holocaust, and all non-random genocides, justifiable.

Random genocides are justifiable just because I like the idea of drawing random groups of people out of a hat and destroying them. Preferably a bowler hat. I imagine jonesy has one.

On to other points. Heimat is a concept from post-Wilson Europe.

Napoleonic Nationalism can't be overlooked, and I made sure to not say that Wilson invented nationalism as an individual concept. In any case, it doesn't matter what political scientists or literary spanks were writing about for years before Wilson. The point is that he implemented this stuff. Academics don't deserve any credit for anything, ever.

If they do, then surely Liddell-Hart is responsible for the Nazis quick conquering of France.

Finally, the Wiki version of Benedict Anderson doesn't seem to actually contradict any claim I am making.
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Re: Woodrow Wilson: Responsible for Holocaust?

Postby Iliad on Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:12 am

DoomYoshi wrote:Ok, well regardless of whether Woodrow actually invented German identity, if he did, he was directly responsible for the holocaust.

So regardless of the actual truth? What? Woodrow Wilson had nothing to with German nationalism and oyu're doing an awful job of backtracking.

Well regardless of whether DoomYoshi talked with lizardpeople, if he did, he was directly responsible for 9/11. Wee, I can do this too.

You've managed to be completely wrong in your entire post about basically everything.
DoomYoshi wrote:
Iliad wrote:It's not a mathematical or a scientific factor, but it is certainly a social one and an important part of a person's identity

This is the problem. The fact that this statement is true makes the Holocaust, and all non-random genocides, justifiable.

Random genocides are justifiable just because I like the idea of drawing random groups of people out of a hat and destroying them. Preferably a bowler hat. I imagine jonesy has one.

And my point was that nationalism and national identity does exist, despite your attempts to claim it doesn't or it didn't, it's a fairly important social distinction. If you claim there is no such thing as Germany there are a lot of baffled Germans, because to them there is certainly such a thing.
DoomYoshi wrote:On to other points. Heimat is a concept from post-Wilson Europe.
No it's not, no idea what your 10 second google search told you.


DoomYoshi wrote:Napoleonic Nationalism can't be overlooked, and I made sure to not say that Wilson invented nationalism as an individual concept. In any case, it doesn't matter what political scientists or literary spanks were writing about for years before Wilson. The point is that he implemented this stuff. Academics don't deserve any credit for anything, ever.


If they do, then surely Liddell-Hart is responsible for the Nazis quick conquering of France.

Finally, the Wiki version of Benedict Anderson doesn't seem to actually contradict any claim I am making.


Oh boy. You said Woodrow Wilson forced nationalism onto Europe and that caused the Holocaust.

Firstly Wilson did not force nationalism on Europe. I directed you to actual causes of nationalism but you in all glory decided to ignore it altogether. Once again, nationalism predated Wilson and he had nothing to do with that. You're going to have to go a level beyond Wikipedia champ if you actually want to argue about this. Google Benedict Anderson and Imagined Community.

Also, secondly, it wasn't just nationalism that led to the Holocaust. Plenty of states today with a healthy national identity and distinct lack of ethnic purging. It takes more factors than just a national identity for people to start rounding up minorities. You're kinda absolving a lot of blame from the Nazis here.

I've explained and mentioned enough authors and concepts for you to actually to get started on this and and not have a batshit arguments. Have fun.
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