Re: 1v1: Promontory Summit [10.3.14] BETA

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Re: 1v1: Promontory Summit [10.3.14] BETA

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:57 am

Image Image Image Image Image

1v1 Approval: 16/12/12
Draft Stamped 21/8/13
Gameplay Stamped 24/9/13
Graphics Stamped 19/10/13
XML Stamped 23/10/13
BETA stamped 10/3/14


Exclusions: 1 v 1 specific
Map Name:The Race to Promontory Point
Mapmaker(s):cairnswk
Number of Territories:37
Special Features:Starting Neutrals, autodeploys
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made:
    1. main reason - small 1v1 map that is a couple of rounds long
    2. easy-peasy, quick games
    3. pertinent to the USA, this was a battle between 2 railroad companies to see who could build their section of line first.
    4. some rail fans and 1v1 fans might like it

Map Image:
Small 630x585
Large 693 x 644


Version 15
Image

Click image to enlarge.
image


Neutrals and Starts
Image


show: Original Images


Gameplay:
    1. two players start at each end of their respective lines and build their section to complete the last remaining section of the Transcontinental railroad in the USA fomr Omaha - Sacremento
    2. First to drive (attain) the Golden Spike and hold it for one turn wins the race, but you must also hold all other sections of your line
    3. there are varying neutrals along the way to conquer determined by the challenges experienced by each R.R. company
    4. your opponent can bombard your bridges

    Major Indian attack outside Plum Creek

Research:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3OM_UnnCNM (1st of 5 on the RR)
http://www.railswest.com/pacificrailroad.html
and others in the thread.
Last edited by cairnswk on Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:15 pm, edited 38 times in total.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:13 am

Honestly, this seems like not one of your best ideas cairns. Why, because it is a map where all you do is hit neutrals. Dice luck is the thing that wins races, not skill or strategy. But did I miss something cairns? Why do both players have differing neutrals, would a player with the more twos win far more battles and gain the bonuses faster, giving them an advantage?
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:05 am

koontz1973 wrote:Honestly, this seems like not one of your best ideas cairns.

Koontz. you may think it is not a good idea, but i do. Others may disagree with you. Not every map has to be about abolsute strategy or skill. Some maps may just be meant to be fun. This happens to be a bit of fun for 1v1.

Why, because it is a map where all you do is hit neutrals.
So, there are other maps in the theatre of CC which are virtually like that also.

Dice luck is the thing that wins races, not skill or strategy. But did I miss something cairns? Why do both players have differing neutrals, would a player with the more twos win far more battles and gain the bonuses faster, giving them an advantage?

Yes, and that's why gameplay was created to obtain the right balance so that no-one has advantage.
So instead of poo-pooing the map, let's see it for what it is and have some fun, and give the troops some entertainment. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:53 am

I am not poo pooing the idea at all, I just do not see any fun had in hitting neutrals. It is neutral after neutral, until the end, and if you reach it first, while I still have the 8 neutrals to go through, you win. Why would you consider that fun. I am only pointing out what I believe, so convince me why this is a good idea.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:07 pm

The idea doesn't do much for me yet. There are a number of abandoned maps I think I'd rather see someone pickup for production.


--Andy
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:36 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:The idea doesn't do much for me yet. There are a number of abandoned maps I think I'd rather see someone pickup for production.
--Andy

That's not surprising Andy, most of my ideas don't appeal to you anyway.
If you want abaondoned maps picked up, please give me some idea of which ones they are. Saying nothing, does nothing to inform me!
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:10 pm

koontz1973 wrote:I am not poo pooing the idea at all, I just do not see any fun had in hitting neutrals. It is neutral after neutral, until the end, and if you reach it first, while I still have the 8 neutrals to go through, you win. Why would you consider that fun.

well who said it was going to be 8 neutrals...you know very well that number can change.
as for hitting neutral after nuetral....one of the most popular maps on CC - AoR hits nothing but hit neutral after neutral to achieve the conquering of the next village.
clearly you don't agree with the players of AoR since you see it isn't much fun conquering neutrals.

I am only pointing out what I believe, so convince me why this is a good idea.

i'm not even going to try to change your opinion, since it is already formed.
but i see it as defeatist and negative...negative attitude which i believe you've had for the last few weeks by the tone of some of your posts.

this concept is all about taking risk (as is every other game on the site) with the throw of the dice and the decision to conquer the next territory if you feel you have enough armies and can better you opponent to achieve your goal.
the conqeuring of neutrals is simply another format for this to occur.
the race to promontory point may appeal to several rail fans and 1v1 fans as an easy 1v1 game, it obviously doesn't appeal to you, so don't play it, but don't try to stop it with your negativity/poo-pooing by saying it isn't the best idea i've had. i was once told that with Poison Rome, and now i am laughing.
new ideas take time to grow in people's minds, sometimes it doesn't happen immediately, but you do nothing to help me be positive about a map/idea with your attitiude.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby IcePack on Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:57 pm

I like 1 vs 1 but in strictly 2 player game it does seem like better dice will win this. Not sure I'd play it much (or at all).
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:59 pm

IcePack wrote:I like 1 vs 1 but in strictly 2 player game it does seem like better dice will win this. Not sure I'd play it much (or at all).

thanks for the feedback IcePack :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby agentcom on Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:02 pm

I understand the dissent, but I think there is room for a map like this on CC. Sure if you play no spoils it's all about the luck, but there may be some strategy to it in escalating or even in trench warfare. Why not let this get to beta and see how it plays out? Also, I think it might make an interesting non-1v1 game. I can see a simple map like this making for interesting team games or multi-player games. Lots of diplomacy necessary on such a small map.

But for 1v1, you have to be REALLY careful about the bonus structure. Fortunately, since the map is linear, you could pretty much calculate the odds exactly and ensure that one side doesn't have like a 5% advantage or something. Cairns or someone I'm sure is up to that task.

Cairns, I'm not sure how I got on your "rail lovers" list, but I am curious how this turns out for you. I don't stop by the Foundry often, but if you ever prod people again for comment, feel free to leave me on your list.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby danwar on Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:47 pm

I would definitely try it out, but not sure if I would play it frequently if it's just luck-based. I am to scared to lose points :-|
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby codierose on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:14 pm

cool neut bashing i would try out for sure
would like a way to hit the other side a bit like a spy on arms race or a cross section where you attack them.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:35 pm

Before I give my opinion on this one I would just like to say that I'm not a fan of rail maps but I understand that a lot of people are into these types and I'll do my best not to let my personal preferences affect my judgment.
I think the map is nice and easy to read/understand. Also I LOVE the idea of competing railroads/old west. If I were a fan of rail maps this would most likely be the one I would choose, mainly because of aesthetics/theme.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:40 pm

I just realized I was only looking at half of the map lol!
I think this is a great idea, a rail map that is a race to one point! I don't play rail maps but is this the first time this has been done?
Cairns, I'll play you in this map once it's launched. :D
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:08 pm

agentcom wrote:I understand the dissent, but I think there is room for a map like this on CC. Sure if you play no spoils it's all about the luck, but there may be some strategy to it in escalating or even in trench warfare. Why not let this get to beta and see how it plays out? Also, I think it might make an interesting non-1v1 game. I can see a simple map like this making for interesting team games or multi-player games. Lots of diplomacy necessary on such a small map.

But for 1v1, you have to be REALLY careful about the bonus structure. Fortunately, since the map is linear, you could pretty much calculate the odds exactly and ensure that one side doesn't have like a 5% advantage or something. Cairns or someone I'm sure is up to that task.

Cairns, I'm not sure how I got on your "rail lovers" list, but I am curious how this turns out for you. I don't stop by the Foundry often, but if you ever prod people again for comment, feel free to leave me on your list.

Yes we would have to be very careful about the bonus structure. thanks for the feedback.
agentcom, you got onto my list by commenting on Rail Europe.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:09 pm

danwar wrote:I would definitely try it out, but not sure if I would play it frequently if it's just luck-based. I am to scared to lose points :-|

thanks for commenting danwar....but is not everyone game on CC based on die and therefore luck based. I can understand you reluctant. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:11 pm

codierose wrote:cool neut bashing i would try out for sure
would like a way to hit the other side a bit like a spy on arms race or a cross section where you attack them.

thanks for commenting codierose. :)
I like the positive involvement you've given...feedback on how to possibly improve the map, and i';ll do something towards implementing something in that realm. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:13 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Before I give my opinion on this one I would just like to say that I'm not a fan of rail maps but I understand that a lot of people are into these types and I'll do my best not to let my personal preferences affect my judgment.
I think the map is nice and easy to read/understand. Also I LOVE the idea of competing railroads/old west. If I were a fan of rail maps this would most likely be the one I would choose, mainly because of aesthetics/theme.

Funkyterrance wrote:I just realized I was only looking at half of the map lol!
I think this is a great idea, a rail map that is a race to one point! I don't play rail maps but is this the first time this has been done?
Cairns, I'll play you in this map once it's launched. :D

thanks for your comments FT. :)
once launched...i'm sure we'll get there...done deal! ;)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby Oneyed on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:38 pm

hmm, rare idea. looks interesting, but yes this game is much based on lucky. lets finish it and lets see how much it will be played...

autodeploy means that X-Y autodeploy? so no random deployment bonus?

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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby generalhead on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:02 pm

I love the look of this map it is an uber cool concept.
I have a couple of comments though if you don't mind
The attacking in a straight line seems odd to me, but that might be that it is such a unique concept that I am not use to it.
can you make a map only 1v1 or will this be played 2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8 players too? How will game play for other than 1v1 be ok
There were no side rails on this railway that would give a few more options for optional bonus's? might make players to have to make a decision, go straight for the goal or try and pick up more bonus along the way.
I would not want another Route 66 just a thought to have a few up and down territories in a straight line to give you a +1 bonus
if this will be more than a 1v1 that might help balance out game play also.
The spy thing might be cool too to give one side a chance to bombard the other side to add to game play. That way there is a little more interaction and it is not just a race through the neutrals.
Didn't the transcontinental railroad go from east coast to west coast with more off shoot rails on the east coast or do I have the wrong railroad.
To end, I think new concept maps are great, I It seems like we have so many maps that have the same game play that it is refreshing to see a unique map here and there. New concept maps might be the hardest to get across to people though due to this is a new concept.
These are all mainly questions, you have a lot more experience with map making than myself. I know working on my 1 lonely map that I am working
on when people ask questions or make comments it might not be things that I will use but it my get the gears working in my head and give me a new way to look at my own map.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby Catarah on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:14 pm

interesting.

because you use autodeploy, with either chained or adjacent, it will be rather important how fast you conquer territs. it might be fun to have some higher and some lower deploy along the way, so the line will be like: +1, +1, +3, +0, +1,+2,+1,+2. then it becomes even more important if you decide to conquer more countries, or stay at the +3 for a while for extra supplies.
if you play with spoils you also have to worry about when you take spoils and when you use them.
third, it is very unfavorable to start attacking the golden spike itself, as you´ll be wasting troops on those neutrals, while your enemy can then waste his troops on you.

spies would also make the game a lot more interesting. have several of them along the route, and the more they are able to bombard, the higher their starting neutrals are, and the further along the route they are placed(and ofc. they're not on the main route, but diversions of the main route, so you can ignore them if you want).



other then that, i hope the xml supports 2-player games, i thought 2P games were counted as 3p games with 1 neutral player, so only 2 starting points would be too little.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:50 pm

Oneyed wrote:hmm, rare idea. looks interesting, but yes this game is much based on lucky. lets finish it and lets see how much it will be played...
autodeploy means that X-Y autodeploy? so no random deployment bonus?
Oneyed

thanks for your comment Oneyed :)
Yes, it is somewhat luck based as are all CC maps...you can have all the strategy you want, but if you don't get the die to go your way top accompany that strategy, you're stuffed. So in that respect, this is no different except for minimal strategy options.
random deployment? i guess you mean the 3 troops deployed at beginning of your turn...at bottom of map...maximum deploy is +1, not +3....so you can only deploy +1.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:00 pm

generalhead wrote:...can you make a map only 1v1 or will this be played 2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8 players too?

if there are only two starting terts and every other tert is neutral, then no there is not option for 3,4,5,6,7,8 players.

How will game play for other than 1v1 be ok
defunct!

There were no side rails on this railway that would give a few more options for optional bonus's? might make players to have to make a decision, go straight for the goal or try and pick up more bonus along the way.

from what i understand, no there were not other railways on the side.

I would not want another Route 66 just a thought to have a few up and down territories in a straight line to give you a +1 bonus

that's why this was devised as a 1v1 2 player map with autodeploy.

The spy thing might be cool too to give one side a chance to bombard the other side to add to game play. That way there is a little more interaction and it is not just a race through the neutrals.

Yes and i am working on the concept of spy and bombardment to lift the gameplay slightly.

Didn't the transcontinental railroad go from east coast to west coast with more off shoot rails on the east coast or do I have the wrong railroad.

Yes but that transcontinental wasn't enabled until this section of the railroad was built.
No you don't have the wrong railroad, but the wrong time frame, and i have used the wrong terminology in that i should not have used transcontinental. i will adjust that.

To end, I think new concept maps are great, I It seems like we have so many maps that have the same game play that it is refreshing to see a unique map here and there. New concept maps might be the hardest to get across to people though due to this is a new concept.
These are all mainly questions, you have a lot more experience with map making than myself. I know working on my 1 lonely map that I am working
on when people ask questions or make comments it might not be things that I will use but it my get the gears working in my head and give me a new way to look at my own map.

generalhead, i appreciate what you say, and by keeping an open mind you will enable the possibilities of creativity to be expanded. this is turn expands the pie.
but you have to learn the basics first and i see you are well on your way with that firwst map.
appreciate you commenting. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:07 pm

Catarah wrote:interesting.

thank-you for dropping in Catarah... :)

because you use autodeploy, with either chained or adjacent, it will be rather important how fast you conquer territs.

very true...in that sense some strategy will be involved.

it might be fun to have some higher and some lower deploy along the way, so the line will be like: +1, +1, +3, +0, +1,+2,+1,+2. then it becomes even more important if you decide to conquer more countries, or stay at the +3 for a while for extra supplies.

yes, and at present towards that, there are the differing autodeploy bonuses on the map for differing sections, but i will keep in mind you idea for alternation. and if i forget, please don't hesitate to remind me.

if you play with spoils you also have to worry about when you take spoils and when you use them.

of course.

third, it is very unfavorable to start attacking the golden spike itself, as you´ll be wasting troops on those neutrals, while your enemy can then waste his troops on you.
in that sense the strategy would be to assault the golden spike when your opponent has least troops or no spoils to use.

spies would also make the game a lot more interesting. have several of them along the route, and the more they are able to bombard, the higher their starting neutrals are, and the further along the route they are placed(and ofc. they're not on the main route, but diversions of the main route, so you can ignore them if you want).

yes, devlopment of kind is happening for spies.

other then that, i hope the xml supports 2-player games, i thought 2P games were counted as 3p games with 1 neutral player, so only 2 starting points would be too little.

yes i would simply have to check that, but there can only be 3 divisor if there are 3 starting spaces, i think.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:14 pm

Version 2.

I have added the concept of spies or sabateurs (bombardments) being able to destroy bridges.
Essentially this still becomes a race where you have to achieve the objective of the golden spike and holding all you railroad line, but your opponent can have a go at you to stop you.
Fort up those bridges when you reach them!
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