An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

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While there is certainly proof that mutations do occur in nature; There is absolutely no real evidence to support the theory of evolution at this time (for over the past 150 years of "Dino-digging"). Including the sedimentary column.
18
27%
There probably is evidence to support this theory, yet scientist are at a loss to explain it appropriately.
17
26%
Scientist are great at making shit up when they have no evidence to prove something that is false to begin with.
8
12%
I believe in Santa. He's a real person that lives all the way deep at the north pole and brings me presents every year. The presents prove that he's real. I also leave him milk and cookies to snack on and while I don't ever see him, I just know with all my heart, that he is the one who eats all the cookies and milk. Or, I wish I had a dogasaur like Dino.
23
35%
 
Total votes : 66

Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:59 pm

Neoteny wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:[13] And even when the fossil records show what appears to be missing links between the species they are not. It only appears to be evolution but the facts are grossly misrepresented by the scientific community. Take the evolution of the horse for example. The horse is perhaps the bastion stronghold for evolutionist. "Horses are among the best-documented examples of evolutionary development.(World Book Encyclopedia 1982 ed. p. 333.)


The f*ck? Maybe horses were a bastion stronghold for evolutionists 150 years ago. Maybe they were a bastion stronghold 30 years ago. But so much progress has been made in genetics and molecular biology over the last half century or so that the "bastion stronghold" for "evolutionists" has spread through most of the field of biology. You could argue that immunology or ecology are as much a bastion as horse phylogeny. When creationists say this sort of thing it becomes clear that he or she has not read anything biology-related that was published in the last decade.

Come on. I read Creation as Science. It was awful, but I make an effort damn it. Google, I dunno, epigenetics or something.


I don't see how Epigenetics, Molecular Biology, Immunity or ecology has anything to do with A Baseless theory that proposes that species of animal including mankind himself has evolved and rose from other, lower species of life.

Why don't you enlighten us with what you have read in the "past decade" or so. Just a taste if you'd be so inclined.

I think that it is more likely that you could not even get past the reading of my original post because as some have stated, It's a "long ass" post.

Metsfanmax wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Wow, you actually read that long ass OP? My hat's off to you, Mets.


Hell no. I responded to the part that was actually relevant to public education decisions, and ignored all the religious nonsense.


I am still trying to figure out what "religious nonsense" did I write about in that post?

It's a post for people who can read.
Last edited by Viceroy63 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:11 pm

I wonder if you actually stop to consider the sources you use to defend your view. Steve Jones is widely known for openly saying that creationism is wrong and evolution is right. If I were you, I'd be embarrassed about selecting a paragraph from a source that blatantly disagrees with your conclusion about his own work. That is, unless you are such an expert on biology that you are more qualified than him to draw conclusions from his own arguments.

Anyway, the issue here is still not whether the theory of evolution is correct, so stop dodging.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Lootifer on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:40 pm

Just because Darwin said there should be rafts of transitional species it doesnt mean evolution requires large numbers of transitional species fossils to be true.

Transitional by definition is something that undergoes rapid change and doesnt last long; its not particularly surprising (though is annoying for biologists trying to study it) that they dont show up in plentiful numbers. The number of steady state species individuals that have existed in history probably outnumber the transitional ones by many many many orders of magnitude; since fossilisation is essentially a roll of the dice it is little wonder their fossils are hard to find.

Please stop calling it a lie; lie is something that is intended to deceive; saying the entire evolutionary biology population is one big hoax is both unfounded and extremely rude (pretty hypocrital for someone who is taught to do unto others as you expected to be treated in return).
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:47 pm

I think that I made it very clear that the theory of evolution when taught as a fact is a deception that even when men of science do not agree with it yet they don't state all the facts.

Read that OP again if it was not clear the first time. I posted all my reasons there for all to see.

And by the way; Evolutionary Biology is one thing and the theory of evolution is another. Let's not confuse the two and call it science. One of them is science and the other is a big fat lie. Simply because it is taught as truth when it is not.
Last edited by Viceroy63 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:53 pm

Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:00 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:I think that I made it very clear that the theory of evolution when taught as a fact is a deception that even when men of science do not agree with it yet they don't state all the facts.


The theory of evolution is taught as a scientific theory. That is what it is. A science teacher that claims it is a fact is mistaken as to the definition of the word "fact." Problem solved.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:02 pm

comic boy wrote:Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.


It seems to me that you are the one who is trolling here. Any Mod want to give me a decision on this? Maybe send him a PM real discreet like?

How anyone can read my OP and think that it's Trolling is beyond me?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby MeDeFe on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:19 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
comic boy wrote:Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.


It seems to me that you are the one who is trolling here. Any Mod want to give me a decision on this? Maybe send him a PM real discreet like?

How anyone can read my OP and think that it's Trolling is beyond me?

I spotted some 3 or 4 grave factual errors when reading your OP (they have all been pointed out already by other posters). Some people could consider that trolling if they think you did it on purpose.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:20 pm

Where did God come from?

Where did the Big Bang come from?

These are basic questions which we can't answer. I grew up knowing the theory of evolution. My father insisted that creation believers were just insane. But he is an atheist. And those who believe in the eternal soul may think that he is insane.

I didn't research these theories, as most people probably don't. Just as I hadn't researched global warming. In general too much research leaves you blinded by all the info and can't really be considered objective for the very reason that hypotheses generally start prior to an investigation and lead to the: seek and you will find a supporting answer.

On the other hand, this question begs a deeper answer: why do we exist?

My mother died when I was quite young and the father I mention above was via adoption. Perhaps for this reason the questions of life and death obsessed me at an earlier age than most. Regardless of what you believe, it comes down to three simple choices:

Pursue life as if it's eternal.

Pursue life as if it is a brief window in a continuation of time.

Pursue life as if it's to be enjoyed to the utmost.

In the first instance, we can turn to religious texts and find in general we should do unto others as we would have others do unto us. An example of this is, when the world is against someone be fair to them. It's quite difficult and I see that I thought very badly of Michael Jackson in the 90s, but regret it now.

In the second instance, we seek worldly acclaim or provide a contribution for those to come. This gives life meaning in the current sense and allows us to live on through the recognition of our exploits. An example of this, Michael Jackson added to added to the breadth of music and will live on through his songs, or at least his contribution to music overall.

In the third instance, we don't really care if we live or die, since death will come anyway and therefore we make merry as much as possible. An example of this, if Michael really did have his way with them boys, he was pursuing his passions regardless of his worldly renown or other-worldly consequences.

These three possibilities stretch the limits of different paths to a successful life. If everyone dies and disappears, worldly renown is of no consequence. If we live live on through our deeds and doings, then it is a matter of achieving something to add to this. And if we have eternal life in the hereafter, our worldly actions may want to reflect this.

I respect most the person who wholeheartedly pursues one of these directions. I disparage most those who haven't even considered why they are here and those who focus on profiting on others loses. Those in between, I ask you, and I am one of them, to pick a side.
Last edited by _sabotage_ on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby AAFitz on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:28 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
comic boy wrote:Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.


It seems to me that you are the one who is trolling here. Any Mod want to give me a decision on this? Maybe send him a PM real discreet like?

How anyone can read my OP and think that it's Trolling is beyond me?


I don't think it was trolling because you are claiming to believe it. However, the view is so inconsistent with the actual facts that it does in fact seem like trolling to those who believe differently.

To be fair, you are making the same claim about the evolutionists, that they are only continuing evolution theory because of a paycheck, which is worse than trolling, and would be outright corruption.

And comic boy is not trolling there either. He fully means what he says, and quite frankly, I agree with him 100%. I will say however, that you at least put a lot of work into your inconsistent, and incorrect assumptions, which is why I don't consider them trolling, just very uneducated, and wrong.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:32 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
comic boy wrote:Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.


It seems to me that you are the one who is trolling here. Any Mod want to give me a decision on this? Maybe send him a PM real discreet like?

How anyone can read my OP and think that it's Trolling is beyond me?


I have already pointed out the hypocrisy of your argument , coupled with your ignorance of the subject in question it presents a fairly pathetic picture . Frankly the suggestion that you were trolling was your only lifeline....
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby SirSebstar on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:50 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
comic boy wrote:Wow it appears he wasn't trolling , how terribly sad , the rise of ignorance indeed.


It seems to me that you are the one who is trolling here. Any Mod want to give me a decision on this? Maybe send him a PM real discreet like?

How anyone can read my OP and think that it's Trolling is beyond me?

i can, so it appears not to be beyond me..
dude, you may believe whatever your mind is capable of grasping. Myself, i keep reminding myself that it took a comittee to deside on wether or not jesus was holy.. and who made the cut what storys made the bible and what did not...
myself, i think the faulty version of the theory of evolution makes better sense then a (unspecified, because there are multiple versions) bible.

I do keep wondering why we as a people allow fanatics to indoctrinate people with what is obviously anti social and unhealthy thinking? and yes, i mean by that religious people.I have never had an atheist scream in my face that i needed to be saved, and christians just wont go away even when asked
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:56 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Where did God come from?

Where did the Big Bang come from?

These are basic questions which we can't answer. I grew up knowing the theory of evolution. My father insisted that creation believers were just insane. But he is an atheist. And those who believe in the eternal soul may think that he is insane.

I didn't research these theories, as most people probably don't. Just as I hadn't researched global warming. In general too much research leaves you blinded by all the info and can't really be considered objective for the very reason that hypotheses generally start prior to an investigation and lead to the: seek and you will find a supporting answer.

On the other hand, this question begs a deeper answer: why do we exist?

My mother died when I was quite young and the father I mention above was via adoption. Perhaps for this reason the questions of life and death obsessed me at an earlier age than most. Regardless of what you believe, it comes down to three simple choices:

Pursue life as if it's eternal.

Pursue life as if it is a brief window in a continuation of time.

Pursue life as if it's to be enjoyed to the utmost.

In the first instance, we can turn to religious texts and find in general we should do unto others as we would have others do unto us. An example of this is, when the world is against someone be fair to them. It's quite difficult and I see that I thought very badly of Michael Jackson in the 90s, but regret it now.

In the second instance, we seek worldly acclaim or provide a contribution for those to come. This gives life meaning in the current sense and allows us to live on through the recognition of our exploits. An example of this, Michael Jackson added to added to the breadth of music and will live on through his songs, or at least his contribution to music overall.

In the third instance, we don't really care if we live or die, since death will come anyway and therefore we make merry as much as possible. An example of this, if Michael really did have his way with them boys, he was pursuing his passions regardless of his worldly renown or other-worldly consequences.

These three possibilities stretch the limits of different paths to a successful life. If everyone dies and disappears, worldly renown is of no consequence. If we live live on through our deeds and doings, then it is a matter of achieving something to add to this. And if we have eternal life in the hereafter, our worldly actions may want to reflect this.

I respect most the person who wholeheartedly pursues one of these directions. I disparage most those who haven't even considered why they are here and those who focus on profiting on others loses. Those in between, I ask you, and I am one of them, to pick a side.


There is nothing wrong with adopting a rigid philosophical stance, problems only arise when attempting to use the scientific method to rationalise it. Even more alarming is the attempt to misrepresent or twist science purely to fit a pre conceived notion . Viceroy attacks evolution not because the science is unsound , he does so simply because it doesn't fit his particular agenda , its a dishonest position at the very least.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:11 pm

I believe that the scientific method is to observe, hypothesize, test and analyze.

I observe that the theories either begin with a Big Bang or with a God. I hypothesize that either had to come from something. I test and I find that we cannot account for the source of either. Upon analyzing this, I decide that we have several potential results. I have provided these several possible results.

Without any backing you claim that Vic's position is dishonest. And therefore one of my possible positions. Unfortunately you claim to use a scientific method. I claim that I am a human being trying to decide a course in my life. We are discussing different topics.

You claim that mine is a rigid philosophical approach and yet I expect the outcome to be quite rigid. We will either melt into nothingness, merge into history, or experience eternity.

What do you claim? You claim that we should go with the scientific evidence that we have been provided with and not question any holes in it. This seems both unscientific and rigid. We cease to observe in such an approach and deny a possibility that 2/3's of the world's population more or less concurs with because it doesn't suit your point of view.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Lootifer on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:37 pm

Blergh why do we even bother (@Viceroy or whatever his name is, not you sabotage)
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:55 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:I believe that the scientific method is to observe, hypothesize, test and analyze.

I observe that the theories either begin with a Big Bang or with a God. I hypothesize that either had to come from something. I test and I find that we cannot account for the source of either. Upon analyzing this, I decide that we have several potential results. I have provided these several possible results.

Without any backing you claim that Vic's position is dishonest. And therefore one of my possible positions. Unfortunately you claim to use a scientific method. I claim that I am a human being trying to decide a course in my life. We are discussing different topics.

You claim that mine is a rigid philosophical approach and yet I expect the outcome to be quite rigid. We will either melt into nothingness, merge into history, or experience eternity.

What do you claim? You claim that we should go with the scientific evidence that we have been provided with and not question any holes in it. This seems both unscientific and rigid. We cease to observe in such an approach and deny a possibility that 2/3's of the world's population more or less concurs with because it doesn't suit your point of view.


Firstly I was simply adding to your point, not addressing you , so in fact I was claiming nothing whatsoever in regard to you , do for goodness sake pay attention. Secondly you are making things up , I never indicated that science should not be questioned and I specificaly stated that there was nothing wrong with taking a philosophical position. My point was that philosophy and science stand alone , you cant use one to disprove the other, this also seems to be your point so what on earth are you arguing against ?
Incidently 2/3 of the worlds population most certainly do not challenge evolution , the vast majority of relifious folk , including most theologians, accept the theory with the proviso that God supplied the initial building blocks.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:19 pm

Viceroy63 wrote: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.
by Viceroy63

[1] Evolution is taught and accepted as factual evidence when in fact there is no factual evidence to support the Theory of Evolution.

Evolution is not taught as fact. It is taught as a scientific theory, which does have a LOT of factual evidence to support it, though it is true there is not 100% definitive proof.

Viceroy63 wrote:The theory of Evolution purposes that life evolved gradually over millions if not billions of years from single cell organisms to the complex life that exist today on the planet. But where is the evidence in the rocks to support this.

All around the Earth. Look particularly in any sedimentary rock formation. Not all contain fossils, but many do. Or you could just visit a few museums, many of which have fossils on display -- along with (if it is a good museum) a bit about where and how the fossil was collected and/or what is known about it. (museums have all that, but highlight specific bits for various displays )
Viceroy63 wrote:[2] Evidence "in the rocks" or fossils (fossilized remains), is what is used to explain evolution and the diversity of life on the planet. Yet there is a problem with the fossil records. There are no intermediate species depicting this. You would think that if the fossil records is what is used to teach evolution as fact and reason for the origin of life on the planet that the fossil records would be without question. Yet there remains great gaps or holes in the records in the rocks for evolution to be taught as fact. And yet it is.

I see, so if I say 1,2, ?, 4,5,6, ?,7 you cannot possibly figure out what the missing numbers are because there are gaps?

We know that life differing a great deal from what we see around us existed earlier. We can see that some forms more like what we see, including some that are identical to what we see today (horseshoe crabs, the nautilus are all ancient types) and we see some that seem to represent something like what a transition species might be -- Ceolocanths, for example.

Also, there is no other theory that explains the evidence we have... period. There just isn't.
Viceroy63 wrote:[3] The gaps are simple to understand when you realize that the Theory explains that life evolved "gradually" over millions of years. That word "gradually," is the key to understanding the gaps. If it takes millions of years for one species to evolve into another, then there should be millions of years worth of fossilized remains everywhere showing the gradual changes over all those millions of years. You just don't show a dinosaur and then a bird and say, "walla," evolution, see!

Why? The processes to form fossils are very specific and tricky. Its actually pretty amazing that we have as many fossils as we have.

Besides.. the fact is that fossils exist and no one has come up with a better explanation than evolution. That IS fact.
Viceroy63 wrote:[4] One could argue, "but how?" and the debate would go something like this; "Don't you see the similarities in the bone structures of the arms of the dinosaur and the wings of the bird? Why they are practically identical!" But what about the intermediate species that evolved between the dinosaur and the bird? well it turns out that the fossil records is not perfect or that we have yet to find them? Then why is evolution taught as fact in schools everywhere when it is not a proven fact?

Ironically enough, several bird transition species have been found. Ironically enough, even the T-rex is one... or were you not aware of that?

Viceroy63 wrote:[5] Charles Darwin, who wrote, "The Origin of Species," devoted an entire chapter explaining the problem with evolution or as we would say today, debunking his own work.

Not quite.. but go ahead.
Viceroy63 wrote:[6] The Origin of Species:
by Charles Darwin
Chapter 9: On the Imperfection of the Geological Record

"But just in proportion as this process of extermination has acted on an enormous scale, so must the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed on the earth, be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record."
(The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin, 1859)
Darwin thought, nay make that "assumed", because its closer to the truth, that the Earth was far younger than it is today. Also, if you were to continue, you would find his answers to the above.. along with those of many other people.

This is actually called "countering the opposition". You try to think of any objection others might have.. and then deal with it, or acknowledge it as a problem yet to be solved.

Darwin did not know what we do about genetics, plate techtonic -- or many other things.
Viceroy63 wrote:[7] Darwin saw the fault in his own theory yet he blamed the rocks for not being adequate record keepers. LOL.

[8] "The faults lie not in our stars but with ourselves."
(Shakespeare)

[9] He believed in his theory at the time, except for the fact that the fossil records did not support his theory. At least not yet. But perhaps one day all those intermediate species would be found, some how? At least that is what was hoped for. Yet he could not understand why there were not any found at the time when there should be as many intermediate fossils as there are fossils of anything else.
See above.
You are proving nothing, not really saying anything here. Tehre are gaps.. so what?

There was life before, there is life now.. and while there is not a full and complete set of transitions for every single line of species, there are plenty of transitions and lines evidenced in the fossil record.

And.. again, no other theory has been presented that better answers the data we have. This is significant. Its one thing to say that evolution might not be true.. fine, few will disagree. But for it to matter, you have to present a competing theory that equally answers ALL the evidence. Just saying "we cannot fully prove evolution right now" isn't enough.
Viceroy63 wrote:[10] 140 years later Professor Steve Jones of University College London published an updated version of Darwin’s "Origin of Species" in 1999, the fossil records still posed the same problems and gaps.

Not quite. Some gaps still exist, but a multitude of gaps and answers were found between Darwin's publication and 1999.
Viceroy63 wrote:"The fossil record - in defiance of Darwin's whole idea of gradual change - often makes great leaps from one form to the next. Far from the display of intermediates to be expected from slow advance through natural selection many species appear without warning, persist in fixed form and disappear, leaving no descendants. Geology assuredly does not reveal any finely graduated organic chain, and this is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against the theory of evolution.”
(Professor Steve Jones, Almost Like a Whale, p. 252)
Yeah, Darwin thought change should be constant and gradual. We know differently now. Try reading up on modern evolution not just what was thought at the turn of the century.
Viceroy63 wrote:[11] Notice how in 1999, Professor Steve Jones called it a "Theory of Evolution." He stated that creatures seemed to be coming into existence almost as if they were "Created" (supernaturally, although he does not use that word, I do) from nothing but the earth. They just came into existence, lived, danced, laughed and then just died out and never even left a forwarding address. LOL.

He shows nothing against evolution. Sorry, but he doesn't. Natural selecton creates species that are highly adapted. There is no reason to change unless the environment around changes. It more complicated that that, of course, but the fossil record shows long periods of relative stasis, relatively little change.. then cateclysms happen causing massive die-offs and new sets of species (along with some unchanged species) appear.

It makes sense if you think about what happens --- something kills off most of the species, leaving just a few to reproduce. If the environment is changing again quickly, then the same thing might happen again.. and again. However, note that this "relatively quick" time period is thousands of years in length.

You just have to look around us today to see such a period of massiv die-offs. In fact, the die-offs seen today are essentially unriveled in Earth's history.

Or, you can study up on what happens when people use antibiotics, particularly incorrectly.

Viceroy63 wrote: [large segment deleted]
To Be Concluded...


I could only deal with the first bit now. When I have time, I can go back and go over the rest of your claims.

Then again, you might just review one of these threads:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=114455&hilit=creation+versus

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29535&p=2152183&hilit=creation+versus#p2152183


viewtopic.php?f=8&t=87553&p=2043214&hilit=creation+versus#p2043214

or a few others.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:21 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Faith is not blind but based on observable facts. But one must first be willing to open their eyes to the truth. That is why I can observe, with my open eyes the fact that Evolution is a lie and should not be taught in schools and universities, as Fact.

There is a big difference between saying that Evolution is not proven, which is correct, and saying "Evolution is a lie".

What evidence do you claim shows evolution is false?

Also, do you really know how much evidence is required for something to be considered fully proven in science?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:27 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Where did God come from?

Where did the Big Bang come from?

These are basic questions which we can't answer. I.

These also have nothing at all to do with evolution. Evolution deals with the development of life on Earth, not the origin of the universe or even our solar system/Earth... never mind the bit about where God came from or if there even is a God.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:54 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:Faith is not blind but based on observable facts. But one must first be willing to open their eyes to the truth. That is why I can observe, with my open eyes the fact that Evolution is a lie and should not be taught in schools and universities, as Fact.

There is a big difference between saying that Evolution is not proven, which is correct, and saying "Evolution is a lie".

What evidence do you claim shows evolution is false?

Also, do you really know how much evidence is required for something to be considered fully proven in science?


I personally determine something to be a lie when it is pawned off as genuine or taught as fact. The fact of the matter is that regardless of whether people can come to grips with this or not, evolution has been taught as a scientific fact. It always has been.

Please keep in mind that the evolution of the horse was the best exampled evidence of evolutionist and it turns out to be a hoax. I am deeply disappointed that supposedly open and intelligent minds can't see this for what it is, Thus the title of this thread, "The Rise of Ignorance." The same has been shown with all other works and displays that evolutionist have used to prove that evolution is a fact and not a theory.

"This is true of all the thirty-two orders of mammals . . The earliest and most primitive known members of every order already have the basic ordinal characters, and in no case is an approximately continuous sequence from one order to another known. In most cases the break is so sharp and the gap so large that the origin of the order is speculative and much disputed."
—*G.G. Simpson, Tempo and Mode in Evolution (1944), p. 105.

The Myth of Horse Evolution
One important subject in the origin of mammals is the myth of the "evolution of the horse," also a topic to which evolutionist publications have devoted a considerable amount of space for a long time. This is a myth, because it is based on imagination rather than scientific findings.

Until recently, an imaginary sequence supposedly showing the evolution of the horse was advanced as the principal fossil evidence for the theory of evolution. Today, however, many evolutionists themselves frankly admit that the scenario of horse evolution is bankrupt. In 1980, a four-day symposium was held at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, with 150 evolutionists in attendance, to discuss the problems with the gradualistic evolutionary theory. In addressing this meeting, evolutionist Boyce Rensberger noted that the scenario of the evolution of the horse has no foundation in the fossil record, and that no evolutionary process has been observed that would account for the gradual evolution of horses:
(http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/natural ... _2_12.html)

"The evolution of the horse was never in a straight line."—*Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 ed.), Vol. 7, p. 13.

For crying out loud people, If you can't trust the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 edition) then who the hell can you trust?

People who claim that the Theory of Evolution has some type of foundation should post that evidence rather than say it does. Just post all your evidence for the Theory of Evolution in this thread.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Neoteny on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:12 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:[13] And even when the fossil records show what appears to be missing links between the species they are not. It only appears to be evolution but the facts are grossly misrepresented by the scientific community. Take the evolution of the horse for example. The horse is perhaps the bastion stronghold for evolutionist. "Horses are among the best-documented examples of evolutionary development.(World Book Encyclopedia 1982 ed. p. 333.)


The f*ck? Maybe horses were a bastion stronghold for evolutionists 150 years ago. Maybe they were a bastion stronghold 30 years ago. But so much progress has been made in genetics and molecular biology over the last half century or so that the "bastion stronghold" for "evolutionists" has spread through most of the field of biology. You could argue that immunology or ecology are as much a bastion as horse phylogeny. When creationists say this sort of thing it becomes clear that he or she has not read anything biology-related that was published in the last decade.

Come on. I read Creation as Science. It was awful, but I make an effort damn it. Google, I dunno, epigenetics or something.


I don't see how Epigenetics, Molecular Biology, Immunity or ecology has anything to do with A Baseless theory that proposes that species of animal including mankind himself has evolved and rose from other, lower species of life.

Why don't you enlighten us with what you have read in the "past decade" or so. Just a taste if you'd be so inclined.

I think that it is more likely that you could not even get past the reading of my original post because as some have stated, It's a "long ass" post.


No worries. I have significant experience with reading, considering, and writing long ass-posts.

Those fields, like pretty much any biology-related field, have been heavily influenced by, and influenced in return, the theory of evolution. And, I mean, you're welcome to keep calling evolution baseless; the rest of us will keep piling up the evidence for it. You can call it unscientific, and we'll keep using the predictions stemming from an evolutionary mindset to further medicine and industry. I, like some others, am having trouble taking you seriously here, but if you really want to talk about something, (horses, I guess?) I'm down. But I seriously recommend maybe updating your knowledge base.

Here are some links to recent publications to get you started.

http://www.sciencemag.org/
http://www.nature.com/
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:22 pm

Viceroy: no one here is arguing that evolution is a fact. No one anywhere is arguing this. We are arguing that it is a scientific theory that is not in conflict with any known data, and that explains a great deal of the data we do have. So who exactly is being ignorant? Who is it exactly that you're claiming is the problem here?

Incidentally, the fact that one possible description of a given evolutionary transition is shown to be wrong is not actually an argument against the theory of evolution. Darwin's idea of gradual and smooth change over millions of years is not the only possible history. Evolutionary biology is compatible with the idea that you can either have gradual change or you can have rapid change in response to external factors like natural disasters and other geological changes. The fact that the gradual and smooth transition doesn't explain everything in the fossil record is not an argument against common descent.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:57 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote::


The idea of where life started and how it has progressed has nothing to do with the question of God? Similar to the below quoted comments of ComicBoy, you are trying to quantify and split things into groups which cannot be split. I think it's quite basic that if there is no God or Gods, as some will have it, then He/She/They could not have had a hand in creation. Whereas if there is a God/s it would be difficult to say that our beginnings and continuation were without a contribution from such a source.

comic boy wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote:I believe that the scientific method is to observe, hypothesize, test and analyze.

I observe that the theories either begin with a Big Bang or with a God. I hypothesize that either had to come from something. I test and I find that we cannot account for the source of either. Upon analyzing this, I decide that we have several potential results. I have provided these several possible results.

Without any backing you claim that Vic's position is dishonest. And therefore one of my possible positions. Unfortunately you claim to use a scientific method. I claim that I am a human being trying to decide a course in my life. We are discussing different topics.

You claim that mine is a rigid philosophical approach and yet I expect the outcome to be quite rigid. We will either melt into nothingness, merge into history, or experience eternity.

What do you claim? You claim that we should go with the scientific evidence that we have been provided with and not question any holes in it. This seems both unscientific and rigid. We cease to observe in such an approach and deny a possibility that 2/3's of the world's population more or less concurs with because it doesn't suit your point of view.


Firstly I was simply adding to your point, not addressing you , so in fact I was claiming nothing whatsoever in regard to you , do for goodness sake pay attention. Secondly you are making things up , I never indicated that science should not be questioned and I specifically stated that there was nothing wrong with taking a philosophical position. My point was that philosophy and science stand alone , you cant use one to disprove the other, this also seems to be your point so what on earth are you arguing against ?
Incidentally 2/3 of the worlds population most certainly do not challenge evolution , the vast majority of religious folk , including most theologians, accept the theory with the proviso that God supplied the initial building blocks.


I have encountered many theories related by religious folks supporting the idea of evolution, I was talking about the question of God. By default, atheists believe in evolution and therefore I approach the question from this angle.

You say that philosophy and evolution are not connected. I believe that is like saying a man's actions have no correlation to his specific situation. I myself really don't know or have a strong opinion on evolution as opposed to building block supplier, trial and error or pure creation. In general anyone who purports to, from whichever perspective you choose to regard it as coming from, has an agenda. The Church recognizes evolution not because it is consistent with their history but as a mechanism to regain their fading status as their influence continues to decline. While I am not familiar with the factual, and since it is a theory, hypothetical backs and forths on evolution, I am well acquainted with the despicable behavior of the Church.

What I seek is a personal path. The question of evolution is mired in contention between the potential paths I put forth. We continue to divide and conquer ourselves over points which in themselves we suggest pertain to larger questions, even if they aren't linked to the larger questions. We pursue our economic Gods, military Gods, entertainment Gods and forget a simple concept, we build up these 'great' pursuits at the benefit of those who succeed in them, we don't build up people in general. In our current society we succeed not by helping our society but by finding a way to reign over it. We have isolated ourselves in order to protect our hard-earned wealth, our views are criticized, not discussed. I think the question of evolution doesn't matter and will not in one whit change how we act as a society. We already know that when a big black dog mates with a small white one, their pups could look like either, both or neither. We know the likelihood of what it will look like and are generally able to control our breeding to produce the results we desire.

We can pursue these avenues, and we do. But the revolution, will it ever come? will not be a coup, or a great politician reforming the tax code, but a change in direction. A change from creating demigods out of each other to focusing on improving the lot of everyone overall. When instead of saying this will make me rich and famous, we say this will change the world forever.

Please do not point out technology or medical advances, those are pure bullshit. We withhold technology and build defunct mechanisms into them in order that we cat stimulate our economy. Sony has their five year, fifteen year and other plans. But their plans focus on themselves.

I enjoy the change in attitude over the last 20 or so years. Now we consider, or at least the media and government consider, bosses as to be supplying jobs; a few years ago we thought of them as stealing our lives away with shitty jobs, pay and general conditions. One company here received a 5 billion dollar contract from the government. They fired 200 people and the guy who did it got a half million dollar bonus. Speculation was here and there, but I never heard from any source the true reason, by re-establishing their employment market, he was killing seniority, could hire back people at less wages and even though in the short term they wouldn't be able to fulfill their current contracts, it would save them millions when the money starts coming in from the government deal.

He probably used a PPT to display this, and if you can't grasp the idea, I'm sorry. But imagine this, the part of the 5 billion dollar pie going to the workers on the project got smaller and the part going to the investors got bigger. This is happening everyday while we sit and bullshit about stuff that doesn't matter.

The reason that evolution doesn't matter is simple: if we have a creationist theory, we are all brothers and sisters, and if we have an evolution theory, we are all brothers and sisters. Why don't we start treating each other as brothers and sisters and instead of sharing a pie where some people feel gratified that they get a bigger piece, we just make more pies?

I bet that most people who use this site, just as most people in North America these days, have preventative jobs. You work for the phone company, cable any services industry in general, you aren't helping people get cable, you are helping people get past the barriers put in place by the company to stop people from getting cable, internet, etc. But they need money to do what they do, otherwise why would they bother?

We have the concept of ME and not WE. The population of Canada hasn't greatly increased in the last 30 years and inflation has been kept low, roughly 2% per annum, yet house prices have sky-rocketed in comparison and house ownership has fallen. Why? It makes no economic sense, unless we consider that we are more and more isolated from each other and require greater amounts of personal space. This is the world we have created for ourselves and each person who can promote divisions between us is able to gain from it. These are the people our evolution/creation societies reward.

Evolution? Creation? Who really gives a f*ck? Choose your path and the world will be a better place. Use reason and logic, trial and error and we will find our own answers. And if someone doesn't agree, so what? That's their right, respect it as you do your own right.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:34 am

Metsfanmax wrote:Viceroy: no one here is arguing that evolution is a fact. No one anywhere is arguing this. We are arguing that it is a scientific theory that is not in conflict with any known data, and that explains a great deal of the data we do have. So who exactly is being ignorant? Who is it exactly that you're claiming is the problem here?

Incidentally, the fact that one possible description of a given evolutionary transition is shown to be wrong is not actually an argument against the theory of evolution. Darwin's idea of gradual and smooth change over millions of years is not the only possible history. Evolutionary biology is compatible with the idea that you can either have gradual change or you can have rapid change in response to external factors like natural disasters and other geological changes. The fact that the gradual and smooth transition doesn't explain everything in the fossil record is not an argument against common descent.


There is no data that conflicts because there is no date period. The Rise of Ignorance is not meant as an accusation but an observation. People have been duped by nonexistent data or the confusion that mutations are steps in the evolutionary process and so there is your evidence??? And that is simply not the case. If you have some data that proves it then post it. Not the mutation but the evolution. Mutations do occur in nature but that is not evolution. Mutation is not proof of evolution.

But there is no missing link and never have been. If there is then here is an excellent place to drop that missing link on us. Drop that intermediate species here that missing link that proves that Evolution has occurred on this planet and responsible for us being here. The whole article in the original post is that there is no intermediate creature between any other two creatures that exist.

That's the whole point of this.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby chang50 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:15 am

Viceroy63 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Viceroy: no one here is arguing that evolution is a fact. No one anywhere is arguing this. We are arguing that it is a scientific theory that is not in conflict with any known data, and that explains a great deal of the data we do have. So who exactly is being ignorant? Who is it exactly that you're claiming is the problem here?

Incidentally, the fact that one possible description of a given evolutionary transition is shown to be wrong is not actually an argument against the theory of evolution. Darwin's idea of gradual and smooth change over millions of years is not the only possible history. Evolutionary biology is compatible with the idea that you can either have gradual change or you can have rapid change in response to external factors like natural disasters and other geological changes. The fact that the gradual and smooth transition doesn't explain everything in the fossil record is not an argument against common descent.


There is no data that conflicts because there is no date period. The Rise of Ignorance is not meant as an accusation but an observation. People have been duped by nonexistent data or the confusion that mutations are steps in the evolutionary process and so there is your evidence??? And that is simply not the case. If you have some data that proves it then post it. Not the mutation but the evolution. Mutations do occur in nature but that is not evolution. Mutation is not proof of evolution.

But there is no missing link and never have been. If there is then here is an excellent place to drop that missing link on us. Drop that intermediate species here that missing link that proves that Evolution has occurred on this planet and responsible for us being here. The whole article in the original post is that there is no intermediate creature between any other two creatures that exist.

That's the whole point of this.


Every living thing is transitional,me you,your pet,your plants,yet fully belongs to a particular species,you will never find intermediate species because the whole concept is nonesense..
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