Re: 1v1: Promontory Summit [10.3.14] BETA

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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V3 - With Indians

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:06 am

cairnswk wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:To expand on the idea of having four spikes, here's some good info:
...

Isaiah40...so do you propose that there should be four spikes instead of one...?
and should they all be the goal, or just two of each..?
or the gold spike plus two of the other three..?
please tell me what you are thinking....you will lessen the amount of roundabouts we have to go through to get to the end :idea: :)

Yes I propose having 4 spikes and having them to be the goal/winning condition. Just my $0.02 worth on a winning condition.
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V3 - With Indians

Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:18 am

isaiah40 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:To expand on the idea of having four spikes, here's some good info:
...

Isaiah40...so do you propose that there should be four spikes instead of one...?
and should they all be the goal, or just two of each..?
or the gold spike plus two of the other three..?
please tell me what you are thinking....you will lessen the amount of roundabouts we have to go through to get to the end :idea: :)

Yes I propose having 4 spikes and having them to be the goal/winning condition. Just my $0.02 worth on a winning condition.


Jippd wrote:what about spikes in the middle...it is a one way attack from each end...left or right...and once on the spikes the spikes can only attack other spikes in terms of troops that have been advanced. Just throwing that possibility out there.


OK, isaiah40, thanks for that explanation, i think it very worthwhile. :)
Having 4 spikes (we already have one) means we would have to remove four other stations to bring the number back down to 36, i.e. 4 spikes plus 16 stations per line.
I beleive this is feasible for goldne number play- 36 terts.
What do you think about Jippd's idea for each spike being able to attack the other one....which when you think about it, ties in with the stations in other rail maps even though there is only one on this map.
While i created this simple concept i am open to suggestions that will help improve the gameplay, as long as it doesn't become too complicated. ;)
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V3 - With Indians

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:35 am

cairnswk wrote:OK, isaiah40, thanks for that explanation, i think it very worthwhile. :)
Having 4 spikes (we already have one) means we would have to remove four other stations to bring the number back down to 36, i.e. 4 spikes plus 16 stations per line.
I beleive this is feasible for goldne number play- 36 terts.
What do you think about Jippd's idea for each spike being able to attack the other one....which when you think about it, ties in with the stations in other rail maps even though there is only one on this map.
While i created this simple concept i am open to suggestions that will help improve the gameplay, as long as it doesn't become too complicated. ;)

Well since this is a pending 1v1 map, we won't have to worry about the golden numbers. I think that if you have the 4 spikes as a winning condition IMHO, I'd have each RR attack the blended iron spike first, the silver spike, the first lower quality spike and then the golden spike. With this being the winning condition to simulate the completion of the RR. And really if you do this, any more and it will be way to complicated.
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V3 - With Indians

Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:40 am

isaiah40 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:OK, isaiah40, thanks for that explanation, i think it very worthwhile. :)
Having 4 spikes (we already have one) means we would have to remove four other stations to bring the number back down to 36, i.e. 4 spikes plus 16 stations per line.
I beleive this is feasible for goldne number play- 36 terts.
What do you think about Jippd's idea for each spike being able to attack the other one....which when you think about it, ties in with the stations in other rail maps even though there is only one on this map.
While i created this simple concept i am open to suggestions that will help improve the gameplay, as long as it doesn't become too complicated. ;)

Well since this is a pending 1v1 map, we won't have to worry about the golden numbers. I think that if you have the 4 spikes as a winning condition IMHO, I'd have each RR attack the blended iron spike first, the silver spike, the first lower quality spike and then the golden spike. With this being the winning condition to simulate the completion of the RR. And really if you do this, any more and it will be way to complicated.

But would the spikes be able to attack each other...that's the question pending??
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V3 - With Indians

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:43 am

I'll leave that to you. It might be good if they do, but either way I'd play this! :D :P
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V3 - With Indians

Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:54 am

isaiah40 wrote:I'll leave that to you. It might be good if they do, but either way I'd play this! :D :P

OK.
If they are not able to attack each other, it means they have to each be attacked from Promontory Summit...and if there is an even contest, the players might be slugging it out for quite some time in flat rate, nuclear or no spoils.
To lessen this, it might be helpful if they were able to attack each other. :)

So going forward....
4 spikes as per your suggestion, with ability to attack each other...all attackable from Promontory Summit....map coming up shortly. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V3 - With Indians

Postby Oneyed on Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:20 am

cairnswk wrote:
Oneyed wrote:you could write names of 15 Tunels and Newcastle as other stations (like stations under indian attacks).
I can not see what these "unluckies" do? losing units?

Oneyed

Bombarded by your opponent Oneyed....don't you follow what is written in the top legend with regards to bridges and Indian attacks?
OR is that not clear for you?


there is just written: Be careful! Saboteurs can destroy (bombard) bridges. or you can be hampered by poor labour supply, snowfalls and Indians.

so there is not mentioned who are saboteurs, from which place can opponent bombard you. is it only me who is not clear in this...? maybe the disasters could lose 1 army per turn?

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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V3 - With Indians

Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:26 am

Oneyed wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Oneyed wrote:you could write names of 15 Tunels and Newcastle as other stations (like stations under indian attacks).
I can not see what these "unluckies" do? losing units?

Oneyed

Bombarded by your opponent Oneyed....don't you follow what is written in the top legend with regards to bridges and Indian attacks?
OR is that not clear for you?


there is just written: Be careful! Saboteurs can destroy (bombard) bridges. or you can be hampered by poor labour supply, snowfalls and Indians.

so there is not mentioned who are saboteurs, from which place can opponent bombard you. is it only me who is not clear in this...? maybe the disasters could lose 1 army per turn?

Oneyed

NO, you're right Oneyed. :) It isn't clearly spelled out who are sabateurs but does it need to be when you only have one opponent in a 1v1 game I thought it would make sense that only your opponent could bombard?? :idea:
as for where you can bombard from that is still to be determined...so your thoughts on that please!
are you saying -1 decay for the disasters....can the xml do that? i don't think so!
but it can do killer neutrals, and i really don't want that in the game....overcomplicates things!
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V3 - With Indians

Postby Oneyed on Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:33 am

cairnswk wrote:NO, you're right Oneyed. :) It isn't clearly spelled out who are sabateurs but does it need to be when you only have one opponent in a 1v1 game I thought it would make sense that only your opponent could bombard?? :idea:


I understand that you can be bombarded only by your opponent. but you mentioned saboteurs, so player (or just me?) could assume only they can bombard, so player will look for them. I think...
cairnswk wrote:as for where you can bombard from that is still to be determined...so your thoughts on that please!


this is about hwat I speak.
cairnswk wrote:are you saying -1 decay for the disasters....can the xml do that? i don't think so!
but it can do killer neutrals, and i really don't want that in the game....overcomplicates things!


ofcourse -1 decay is possible. look for example on Napoleonic wars and there are winter regions which lose army per turn to the players last army...

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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V4 - With Indians

Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:59 am

Version 4.
4 spikes added, with some adjustment to the narration.
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V4-Injuns & 4 Spike

Postby Jippd on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:44 pm

I forsee a problem with this map on trench and 1 v 1. If I started on the bottom and went first I feel like it would be very easy for me to keep the top half on their base for a while. I would slowly creep forward and be safe until plum creek from bombardment..by that time autodeploys would save me while I utilize attackers dice advantage to keep the top half on their base
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V4 - With Indians

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:12 am

Bumped...
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V4-Injuns & 4 Spike

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:46 am

Jippd wrote:I forsee a problem with this map on trench and 1 v 1. If I started on the bottom and went first I feel like it would be very easy for me to keep the top half on their base for a while. I would slowly creep forward and be safe until plum creek from bombardment..by that time autodeploys would save me while I utilize attackers dice advantage to keep the top half on their base


OK. From the vidoes and research readings, there was a lot of challenges gaining momentum for these two lines.
From http://www.railswest.com/pacificrailroad.html
Central Pacific Railroad Begins Construction in Sacramento

The Central Pacific Railroad broke ground at Front and K Streets in Sacramento on January 8, 1863, the Union Pacific a Omaha on December 2, 1863. The Central Pacific laid its first rail on October 26. The Central Pacific's first locomotive, No. 1 Governor Stanford, was placed in service on November 10. Most of the rail, supplies and equipment for the Central Pacific had to be shipped around Cape Horn at the tip of South America. It typically took from three to seven months or longer for shipments to arrive from the East.

Progress was slow for both companies during the war years with price of materials high and labor scarce. The Railroad Act of 1864 doubled the resources made available to the railroads by the previous act.

The Central Pacific pushed their rails 18 miles east of Sacramento to Roseville by February 1864 and train service began in April. Track was completed 31 miles to Newcastle and trains began running in June. Progress slowed as track crews entered the Sierra Nevada foothills. Winter weather and the increasing necessity for tunneling in the mountains began to slow progress further. The CPRR reached Clipper Gap, 43 miles away, was reached on June 10, 1865, and Colfax, 55 miles away, was reached on September 10, 1865.

The work began with the surveyors who selected the best route. The graders followed behind the surveyors, digging through the hills, blasting tunnels, filling in the valleys and building bridges. All grading and track laying was done by hand, using picks and shovels, black powder for blasting, and mule carts to hall the debris away. Behind the graders followed the track layers, laying down the hand hewn wooden ties and rails. the rails were measured to make sure they were exactly the right distance apart then spiked into place using specially designed hammers.

Silver was discovered in Nevada in 1865. Many able bodied men left for Nevada to search for silver, depleting the work force of the Central Pacific. The Central Pacific had hired only white men (mostly Irish) up to this point in time. Faced with a shortage of white workers willing to work on the railroad, Charles Crocker, amid much dispute, began hiring Chinese workers to fill in for the white labor shortage. Although initially thought to be too weak or fragile to do this type of work, the Chinese workers proved to be very efficient and industrious. The decision was made to hire as many as could be found in California, and others were imported from China. The construction crews worked from sunrise to sunset, six days in the week.

An estimated 6000 Chinese workers faced a formidable challenge blasting rock and cutting a roadbed through the Sierras. The rock was so hard that as little as seven to eight inches of progress were made in a day, although the use of nitroglycerin did speed up the process in 1866.

Watertower and windmill at LaramieIn December 1866 the Central Pacific opened 92 miles to Cisco, California. The first CPRR locomotive crossed the California - Nevada border on December 13, 1867. The mountain work was soon completed, and the CP was pushing eastward across the Nevada plane, following the Truckee River to Wadsworth, then the California Trail and Humbolt River eastward toward Utah. Tracks were completed 10 miles east of Elko, Nevada by the end of 1868.

To reduce conflict with the local Native American groups James Strobridge, the construction superintendent of the Central Pacific, offered the Paiute and Shoshone Indians free rides on the trains. The Central Pacific also employed some Native Americans building the railroad.

Union Pacific Begins Laying Track in Omaha

The Union Pacific Railroad was incorporated on July 1, 1862 in the wake of the Pacific Railroad Act of 1862. Its dominant stockholder and partner was Thomas C. Durant who was also selected as Vice President.

The determination for the starting point of the Union Pacific was left up to President Lincoln who selected Council Bluffs, Iowa, on the East bank of the Missouri River, based on the advise of his former client Thomas Durant. Council Bluffs was a major outfitting point on the Missouri for the Oregon Trail with a lively steamboat trade. Omaha, Nebraska was directly across the river. Council Bluffs and Omaha were well north of the Civil War fighting taking place in Missouri, was the shortest route to the South Pass break in the Rockies in Wyoming, and would follow a fertile river that would encourage settlement.

Durant created a separate company, Crédit Mobilier of America, to cary out the construction of the railroad, to limit the liability of stockholders and to maximize profits from construction. The company was the sole bidder for construction contracts from Union Pacific, with the substantial fees being paid by federal subsidies. The company also provided discounted shares of stock to members of Congress who agreed to support additional funding.

UP Construction at Green River, Wyoming Winter 1868 Citadel Rock is in the background (A. J. Russell)The Union Pacific didn't start laying rail in Omaha until July 1865. By January 1866, the Central Pacific had laid 60 miles of track, and the Union Pacific had only laid 40 miles of track to Fremont, Nebraska. The tracks roughly paralleled the Oregon Trail and the Platte River to North Platte, which was reached in December 1866. From North Platte the tracks followed the South Platte River to Julesburg, Colorado Territory, which was reached in June 1867.

The Union Pacific crews were led by Grenville Dodge, the Chief Engineer, and Jack Casement who supervised the Union Pacific construction. Crews were made up of primarily Irish immigrants and Civil War veterans. Others included Native Americans, German and English immigrants, and a few local workers including Mormons in Utah. In addition to the track layers, construction also required hundreds of blacksmiths, carpenters, engineers, masons, surveyors, teamsters, telegraphers, and even cooks.

The Union Pacific progress was often resisted by Native American Indian groups who opposed the incursion of the work gangs and railroad into their hunting areas. They saw the construction of the railroad as a violation of their treaties with the United States. War parties began to raid the moving labor camps that followed the progress of the line. Union Pacific responded by increasing security and by hiring marksmen to kill American Bison - which were both a physical threat to trains and the primary food source for many of the Plains Indians.

The Union Pacific reached Cheyenne, Wyoming in November 1867; and had completed 450 miles of track to the Utah - Wyoming border by the end of 1868.


Maybe we can take the Indian attack from Cheyenne and place the bombardment at Freemont...since that first point was roughly the same for both RRs.
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V4-Injuns & 4 Spike

Postby Jippd on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:53 am

That will help make it more balanced. I almost feel that this map should be a mirror image though. If it is 1 v 1 and each player starts on one end with only one spot to win in then there is only way to make the drop fair for both sides and that is to make them mirror images. If you made this change my next argument would be for both sides its two neutrals to next bombard point but then the north has 4 spots to go through and the south only 1 to get to the next bombardment spot. I'd rather be in the north then so I can advance easier.
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [13.12.12] V4-Injuns & 4 Spike

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:11 am

Jippd wrote:That will help make it more balanced. I almost feel that this map should be a mirror image though. If it is 1 v 1 and each player starts on one end with only one spot to win in then there is only way to make the drop fair for both sides and that is to make them mirror images.

i think you can make it a mirror image to some extent by having the same number of bombardments. But the conditions can be reflected by differing places of bombardment, and the balance of neutral amount placement.

If you made this change...
which i will do to even this start out...

...my next argument would be for both sides its two neutrals to next bombard point but then the north has 4 spots to go through and the south only 1 to get to the next bombardment spot. I'd rather be in the north then so I can advance easier.

think of top map as west, and bottom map as east....not north and south... :) (i might put that into the map btw)
east section UPRR...3 places to advance to Plum Creek from Freemont before next bombardment...6 neutrals to overcome
west section CPRR...2 places to advance to 15 tunnels (and this has to be used as harzard)...9 neutrals to overcome -> needs to be reduced to 6.

similar sort of maths needs to balance everthing out... to make it fair, and even then there is still the luck of the dice and who goes first. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [14.12.12] V5-Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:11 am

Plan for neutrals and bombardments...
UPRR (east) 15 spaces
CPRR (west) 15 spaces

1st bombardment
UPRR (east) - Freemont - N3 - 1 space from start
CPRR (west) - Newcastle - N3 - 1 space from start

2nd bombardment
UPRR (east) - Plum Creek - 3 spaces from Freemont - 6N to conquer
CPRR (west) - 15 tunnels - 3 spaces from Newcastle - 6N to conquer

3rd bombardment
UPRR (east) - Julesberg - 2 spaces from Plum Creek - 6N to conquer
CPRR (west) - Humbolt Bridge - 5 spaces from 15 tunnles - 11N to conquer (reflects conditions in moutains, but not too hard)

4th bomardments
UPRR (east) - Green Creek - 5 spaces from Julesberg - 11N to conquer
CPRR (west) - Elko - 3 spaces from Humbolt Bridge - 9N to conquer

Promontory Summit
UPRR (east) - 4 spaces from Green Creek - 10N
CPRR (west) - 3 spaces from Elko - 8N

total neutrals on each side to conquer - 38

Version 5.
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [14.12.12] V5-Neutrals

Postby Jippd on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:01 am

I'm talking about going from the 2nd spot that can be bombarded to the third spot on each side. West has an advantage because it is 3 places away whereas the east move one spot and then is on a bombardable region again.
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [14.12.12] V5-Neutrals

Postby Oneyed on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:06 am

looks good.

change bombadment from Julesburg to Chayenne, I think. then it will be more balanced, but still not the same.

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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [14.12.12] V5-Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:07 am

Jippd wrote:I'm talking about going from the 2nd spot that can be bombarded to the third spot on each side. West has an advantage because it is 3 places away whereas the east move one spot and then is on a bombardable region again.

so it is balanced by neutrals between each spot. I told you that we are not going to have evenly spaced bombardment spots throughout the map. it would make it far too clinical for my liking :)
Last edited by cairnswk on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [14.12.12] V5-Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:09 am

Oneyed wrote:looks good.

change bombadment from Julesburg to Chayenne, I think. then it will be more balanced, but still not the same.

Oneyed

that is a possibility, but once again we are getting towards being too clinical and totally evenly spaced, and gees, to we really have to go there, when there are other options??
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [14.12.12] V5-Neutrals

Postby Oneyed on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:20 am

cairnswk wrote:that is a possibility, but once again we are getting towards being too clinical and totally evenly spaced, and gees, to we really have to go there, when there are other options??


too clinical? you can do it as no by set up neutrals. here is question what is worst: to attack 2 times 3 neutrals or 4 times 2 neutrals?

I am afraid that Julesburg will gives to east player advantage.

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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [14.12.12] V5-Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:19 am

Oneyed wrote:
cairnswk wrote:that is a possibility, but once again we are getting towards being too clinical and totally evenly spaced, and gees, to we really have to go there, when there are other options??


too clinical? you can do it as no by set up neutrals. here is question what is worst: to attack 2 times 3 neutrals or 4 times 2 neutrals?
...Oneyed

It depends on how many i am attacking with, and how my luck is running. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [14.12.12] V5-Neutrals

Postby codierose on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:21 am

do have to hold all 4 spikes and all your line for objective or 1 gold 1 silver for your side
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [14.12.12] V5-Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:27 am

codierose wrote:do have to hold all 4 spikes and all your line for objective or 1 gold 1 silver for your side

white text says...."who will win the race to drive the Gold and Silver Spikes and hold their entire line"
that to me says the entire line and all the 4 spikes since they are made from gold and/or silver.
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Re: Race to Promontory Summit [14.12.12] V5-Neutrals

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:11 pm

Sorry for the delay. Some unplanned things messed up my schedule.
Anyway, more than a 1vs1 this could be a 1vs dice map, but it has something unique.

So you have my approval to make this a only 1vs1 map; up to koontz to decide when move this one to gameplay.

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