[GP/UI] Add neutral starting values to maps in Browse Maps

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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby maxfaraday on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:40 am

I fully support this suggestion, it would definitely improve the site and the gaming experience.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby blakebowling on Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:01 am

Alright, techie here to ruin your fun:
Currently, the images you see in previews are the same ones used for the actual map. If there were numbers on the neutral-starting territories, then the numbers injected by the game engine would be unreadable (so this isn't solvable by just having the mapmaker put the numbers on the map).
This could be done, actually without any work from the foundry by lack using the same PNG overlay used in the game engine to put the default neutrals (taken from the map's XML) and overlaying them onto the previews.

That being said, it's very unlikely that this will happen anytime soon, as it would mean an overhaul of the map preview interface.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby drunkmonkey on Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:28 am

blakebowling wrote:Alright, techie here to ruin your fun:
Currently, the images you see in previews are the same ones used for the actual map. If there were numbers on the neutral-starting territories, then the numbers injected by the game engine would be unreadable (so this isn't solvable by just having the mapmaker put the numbers on the map).
This could be done, actually without any work from the foundry by lack using the same PNG overlay used in the game engine to put the default neutrals (taken from the map's XML) and overlaying them onto the previews.

That being said, it's very unlikely that this will happen anytime soon, as it would mean an overhaul of the map preview interface.


Isn't it just a matter of the map preview pointing to a different .png file? I don't see how it would be an "overhaul".
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby agentcom on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:09 pm

blakebowling wrote:Alright, techie here to ruin your fun:
Currently, the images you see in previews are the same ones used for the actual map. If there were numbers on the neutral-starting territories, then the numbers injected by the game engine would be unreadable (so this isn't solvable by just having the mapmaker put the numbers on the map).
This could be done, actually without any work from the foundry by lack using the same PNG overlay used in the game engine to put the default neutrals (taken from the map's XML) and overlaying them onto the previews.

That being said, it's very unlikely that this will happen anytime soon, as it would mean an overhaul of the map preview interface.


Yeah, I was thinking exactly the latter idea: overlaying the numbers--just like it does in the games. The data is already there in the XML. As has been mentioned, the more difficult solution is to have all the mapmakers (or someone else) create a second image with neutral values and have them upload that image and have the map preview screen pull that image instead of the "empty" map. That seems to be to be a lot more work.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby ThrushAAX on Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:02 pm

I wonder if this would be a good addition to B.O.B. too? Having a button that toggles between showing the map and showing all the default neutral values. It already has to load and parse the XML but this way you wouldn't have to go to the map preview page or something else.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby chapcrap on Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:03 pm

ThrushAAX wrote:I wonder if this would be a good addition to B.O.B. too? Having a button that toggles between showing the map and showing all the default neutral values. It already has to load and parse the XML but this way you wouldn't have to go to the map preview page or something else.

That would be great.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby perchorin on Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:50 pm

This is a great idea, hope we can see it happen.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby Jippd on Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:36 am

I support this idea
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby anonymus on Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:20 pm

i support do it!
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby Catarah on Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:17 pm

in support of this.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby Jippd on Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:08 am

blakebowling wrote:Alright, techie here to ruin your fun:
Currently, the images you see in previews are the same ones used for the actual map. If there were numbers on the neutral-starting territories, then the numbers injected by the game engine would be unreadable (so this isn't solvable by just having the mapmaker put the numbers on the map).
This could be done, actually without any work from the foundry by lack using the same PNG overlay used in the game engine to put the default neutrals (taken from the map's XML) and overlaying them onto the previews.

That being said, it's very unlikely that this will happen anytime soon, as it would mean an overhaul of the map preview interface.


Or you just require map makers to upload a map preview image which has the neutrals coded on it. I believe in the foundry process map makers have to show a version with default neutral starting positions don't they?

Then the site can make a direct link to that image instead of the map image when u click a map to see the bigger preview version.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby blakebowling on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:27 pm

drunkmonkey wrote:
blakebowling wrote:Alright, techie here to ruin your fun:
Currently, the images you see in previews are the same ones used for the actual map. If there were numbers on the neutral-starting territories, then the numbers injected by the game engine would be unreadable (so this isn't solvable by just having the mapmaker put the numbers on the map).
This could be done, actually without any work from the foundry by lack using the same PNG overlay used in the game engine to put the default neutrals (taken from the map's XML) and overlaying them onto the previews.

That being said, it's very unlikely that this will happen anytime soon, as it would mean an overhaul of the map preview interface.


Isn't it just a matter of the map preview pointing to a different .png file? I don't see how it would be an "overhaul".

Somehow I missed this a long time ago.

It is possible, but it would require someone to generate those images. (i.e. the mapmaker).


Also, since there seems to be a consensus on this suggestion. I'm going to submit it.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby x-raider on Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:20 am

blakebowling wrote:
drunkmonkey wrote:
blakebowling wrote:Alright, techie here to ruin your fun:
Currently, the images you see in previews are the same ones used for the actual map. If there were numbers on the neutral-starting territories, then the numbers injected by the game engine would be unreadable (so this isn't solvable by just having the mapmaker put the numbers on the map).
This could be done, actually without any work from the foundry by lack using the same PNG overlay used in the game engine to put the default neutrals (taken from the map's XML) and overlaying them onto the previews.

That being said, it's very unlikely that this will happen anytime soon, as it would mean an overhaul of the map preview interface.


Isn't it just a matter of the map preview pointing to a different .png file? I don't see how it would be an "overhaul".

Somehow I missed this a long time ago.

It is possible, but it would require someone to generate those images. (i.e. the mapmaker).

Also, since there seems to be a consensus on this suggestion. I'm going to submit it.


Thanks blake.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby Qwert on Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:48 pm

hmm,strange that nobody from Map foundry MODS not post here. Almost all maps dont have starting neutrals, these mean that every game have diferent deployment of neutrals territory,,except maps with starting positions.
For peloponnesian war map, starting neutrals are every time same,and with same value, so player who play a loth of these map,all ready know neutral deployment. Best option its that you play no fog games, print screen saver,and you will have map with all neutrals. Ofcourse these its only work for pelo war map, and with feudal war, and few other maps with starting neutrals. But these its so little number of maps, that i dont see realy why are these so importan do implement.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby chapcrap on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:37 pm

qwert wrote:Best option its that you play no fog games, print screen saver,and you will have map with all neutrals. Ofcourse these its only work for pelo war map, and with feudal war, and few other maps with starting neutrals. But these its so little number of maps, that i dont see realy why are these so importan do implement.

No way that is the best option. That's not a very good option for everyone to have to do.

I think you are confused about what is wanted here. What is being suggestion is a picture of what the values would be in a game that is started. There are only a few maps where a territory has a different number of troops on it if it starts neutral vs if a player holds it.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:35 am

chapcrap wrote:
qwert wrote:Best option its that you play no fog games, print screen saver,and you will have map with all neutrals. Ofcourse these its only work for pelo war map, and with feudal war, and few other maps with starting neutrals. But these its so little number of maps, that i dont see realy why are these so importan do implement.

No way that is the best option. That's not a very good option for everyone to have to do.

I think you are confused about what is wanted here. What is being suggestion is a picture of what the values would be in a game that is started. There are only a few maps where a territory has a different number of troops on it if it starts neutral vs if a player holds it.


Chapcrap...maps of later period, i don't know when it started, usually are required by the foundry mods to have a map of neutrals posted in the front page of the map thread. This is part of the xml checking procedure. In that sense what you require is already implemented to a degree. However, it just hasan't been broadcast to everyone, and thus of course these players above don't know it exists. What is really needed is a link in the map screen to the map thread front page.
I would approach tnb80 if i were you, to determine if it is feasible to have all maps show starting neutrals on a map on the front page for all the earlier maps. Quite a project for someone.
I also, for maps like Pot Mosbi, Jamaica and Spanish Armada, put the starting positions map on the front page, as this also helps with the xml check.

I dont' think it is in the best interest of the mapmaker to have to put a list on each map of all starting neutrals. We already have enough challenges with legend instructions etc to fit everything into a map that is required for players to get a grip. Sadly, a lot of players don't even bother to read that.

The best solution would be to code the underlying neutral values into the xml engine code that shows on the map playing screen.

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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:18 am

cairnswk wrote: i don't know when it started,

This was started by natty last year when he was checking them. So it only has around 15-20 that have it.

This like a lot of map projects is going to be huge.

Maps are not easy things to look at and the xml is even harder. Starting neutrals can change depending on the amount of players (Rorke's Drift, Dustbowl). So which map would the site display, all starting neutrals or neutrals for 1v1 games only? This would take a long time to implement just because of the amount of maps we have now and it is only going to get worse as the years go on.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby Jippd on Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:57 am

koontz1973 wrote:
cairnswk wrote: i don't know when it started,

This was started by natty last year when he was checking them. So it only has around 15-20 that have it.

This like a lot of map projects is going to be huge.

Maps are not easy things to look at and the xml is even harder. Starting neutrals can change depending on the amount of players (Rorke's Drift, Dustbowl). So which map would the site display, all starting neutrals or neutrals for 1v1 games only? This would take a long time to implement just because of the amount of maps we have now and it is only going to get worse as the years go on.


A solution could be that you include the neutral values when they are set.

If it is a neutral value that changes based on the number of players represent it by a white question mark.

Is it hard to save an image of the map and just overlay neutral numbers in a picture editing program? Also if you think about all the maps that don't have neutral starts I don't think this project is that big?
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby Qwert on Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:17 am

chapcrap wrote:
qwert wrote:Best option its that you play no fog games, print screen saver,and you will have map with all neutrals. Ofcourse these its only work for pelo war map, and with feudal war, and few other maps with starting neutrals. But these its so little number of maps, that i dont see realy why are these so importan do implement.

No way that is the best option. That's not a very good option for everyone to have to do.

I think you are confused about what is wanted here. What is being suggestion is a picture of what the values would be in a game that is started. There are only a few maps where a territory has a different number of troops on it if it starts neutral vs if a player holds it.


So from your experience how many maps will be included in these ?

If you go in game finder- Classic,Africa,Australia, and other normal maps who dont have starting position, have neutral territory value of 3. Also these its in every game diferent(depend on how much player are in game).
Are these its sugestion to include in all maps,or in few maps?

More than once, I looked through the map foundry to find out how many neutrals I'd be facing if I made an attack in a foggy game. Unless you parse through the XML, this information most of the time is not there. Instead, I have to hope that there is a sunny game that hasn't progressed too far that I can find through Game Finder.

example- i play classic map-fog,, and how these will help me?
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:16 am

qwert wrote:So from your experience how many maps will be included in these ?

You are probably looking at every map made over the last 2/3 years having a neutral placed into them for the starting positions balance. But every map that has positions in may or may not have neutrals underlying the positions. The reason I stated the two I did is because I know these two have it. Most maps will only have a neutral coded in. But it is the work of having to look through all the xml to find them. It is not a matter of starting a game with 8 players and seeing where the neutrals are as the game engine may randomly give a couple of neutrals out depending on the number of territs a map has.

Here is the neutrals for Jakarta.
    2 player games - 13
    3 player games - 13 (no neutrals)
    4 player games - 9 (3 neutrals)
    5 player games - 7 (4 neutrals)
    6 player games - 6 (2 neutrals)
    7 player games - 5 (4 neutrals)
    8 player games - 4 (7 neutrals)
And none are coded in so this maps neutrals can be anywhere. It also randomly gives the neutrals out in all games. Here are the neutrals for Mag map.
    Budapest (3) Auto deploy +1
    Szepes (3)
    Sopron (3)
    Fiume (3) Auto deploy +1
    Bekes(1)
    Lika Krbava (1)
    Haromszek (1)
These will always start neutral and this is the info all map makers need to provide when making a map.

The two problems with this suggestions are:
The amount of work required to look through all xml to find all underlying neutrals and them make the images.
Neutrals can change depending on the maps game size.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby chapcrap on Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:14 am

Ok, cairns and qwert, I'm not sure you understand what is wanted.

When you are in game finder or looking at My Games page and click on a map, the image of the map comes up. We want the image that comes up to have the territories marked with how many troops are there to start with. It doesn't need to be different for each game situation. We're talking about showing something like this:

Click image to enlarge.
image


The only difference in that image and what is being requested here, is to have all positions shown as neutral and to show it for EVERY position.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:08 am

But what do you do chapcrap when that image is not correct as in the two examples I gave.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby chapcrap on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:18 am

koontz1973 wrote:But what do you do chapcrap when that image is not correct as in the two examples I gave.

The starting values do not change in those maps. Whether or not the territories actually start neutral or not is irrelevant. So, the image for Dust Bowl would be the same no matter what. I think that Rorke's Drift would be the same as well, but I haven't been involved with the map enough to know for sure.

A map image that has every tert shown as starting neutral and what the value would be if that were the case.
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby darth emperor on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:30 am

chapcrap wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:But what do you do chapcrap when that image is not correct as in the two examples I gave.

The starting values do not change in those maps. Whether or not the territories actually start neutral or not is irrelevant. So, the image for Dust Bowl would be the same no matter what. I think that Rorke's Drift would be the same as well, but I haven't been involved with the map enough to know for sure.

A map image that has every tert shown as starting neutral and what the value would be if that were the case.

Yes, I think that the they have a mislead with the title name, because what we want is not the default neutral values, but the default values per se. So if you see that a region has 5 troops, and the image says 3 you can know that the opponent has put 2 armies there, while now if you don't know the map you can't be sure if that region starts with 5 troops or if they have put additional troops. So really it doesn't help only to know the neutral values, but all the values
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Re: Include default neutral values in map images

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:54 am

OK, i understand now, but that image is still going to have be generated from the xml engine.
Maps are now having different divisors...so that rather than the normal 3, you'll get another number,
and the neutral placement may end up being different for each type of game played i.e. 1v1, as opposed to 4 player.
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