Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Postby Lionz on Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:52 pm

How about we get into something a little more concrete if you can bend rates to preconceived notions about what occurred in the past?

Can we get back into dinosaurs if referring to images from Jurassic Park was essentially the gist of a recent secular response to evidence? Is it not true that The Travels of Marco Polo suggests that there were people hunting dinosaurs over 50 feet in length less than 1,000 years ago in it?

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3806

Did Marco Polo not claim a Chinese Emperor had a number of dragons which were used to pull his chariots in parades? Do Herodotus, Josephus, Aelian, Mela, Ammianus, Esarhaddon's inscription, anonymous 4'th century Coptic monks, the 13'th century Armenian historian Matthew of Edessa and more not all attest the existence of flying reptiles? Does the Aberdeen Bestiary not clearly refer to one or more dinosaur? Is there not a city in France called Nerluc that was renamed in honor of a dragon with a horned head being killed there? Are dragons not mentioned as very rare but still living creatures in a 16th century four-volume encyclopedia entitled Historiae Animalium? Want more? What's shown and described here?

http://s8int.com/dinolit1.html

http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/history/history.htm

"archaic : a huge serpent "
-http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dragon

"dragon, serpent, sea monster"
"dragon or dinosaur"
-http://studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=08577

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Last edited by Lionz on Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

Postby AAFitz on Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:54 pm

Lionz wrote:"In about 50 billion years from now, the Moon will stop moving away from us."
-http://wiki.answers.com/Q/5_facts_about_the_moon

Why would the moon eventually stop moving away from earth if it has been moving away from earth at an increasing rate?


Alot can happen in 50 billion years, lol...but if the rate is decelerating, its decelerating.

It however, does not in any way suggest that the rate your source computed was accurate. :D
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Re:

Postby AAFitz on Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:54 pm

Lionz wrote:How about we get into something a little more concrete if you can bend rates to preconceived notions about what occurred in the past?

Can we get back into dinosaurs if referring to pictures of Jurassic Park was essentially the gist of a recent secular response to evidence? Is it not true that The Travels of Marco Polo suggests that there were people hunting dinosaurs over 50 feet in length less than 1,000 years ago in it?

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3806

Did Marco Polo not claim a Chinese Emperor had a number of dragons which were used to pull his chariots in parades? Do Herodotus, Josephus, Aelian, Mela, Ammianus, Esarhaddon's inscription, anonymous 4'th century Coptic monks, the 13'th century Armenian historian Matthew of Edessa and more not all attest the existence of flying reptiles? Does the Aberdeen Bestiary not clearly refer to one or more dinosaur? Is there not a city in France called Nerluc that was renamed in honor of a dragon with a horned head being killed there? Are dragons not mentioned as very rare but still living creatures in a 16th century four-volume encyclopedia entitled Historiae Animalium? Want more? What's shown and described here?

http://s8int.com/dinolit1.html

http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/history/history.htm

"archaic : a huge serpent "
-http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dragon

"dragon, serpent, sea monster"
"dragon or dinosaur"
-http://studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=08577

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Are you suggesting these are all made out of concrete?

But more seriously, as to what Marco Polo may or may not have said...do not people lie all the time?

If there is evidence of another adventurer, not mentioning dinosaurs, can we then infer they must not have existed just as easily?

I love the irony of the comic showing people tell stories and getting them wrong and exaggerating them over time.

Is it possible this happened in the Bible stories too or is it limited to Dragon make-believe?

And just one more question: Why cant someone with a fuckin Nikon ever take a picture of the Lochness "Dragon"?
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Re:

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:26 pm

Lionz wrote:"In about 50 billion years from now, the Moon will stop moving away from us."
-http://wiki.answers.com/Q/5_facts_about_the_moon

Why would the moon eventually stop moving away from earth if it has been moving away from earth at an increasing rate?


The moon is not moving away from us because of kinematical reasons, it's moving away because of tidal torque. That tidal torque is a consequence of the fact that the Moon and Earth's rotation is asynchronous; that is, they have different rotation periods about their own rotation axes. The resulting tidal torque is what is responsible for the Moon moving away from us. In fact, that's the secondary effect of the main issue, which is that the rotation periods are coming into sync. When that happens, no more torque will be exerted by the oceans, and the Moon will stop drifting away due to the tidal friction.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:23 pm

crispybits wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:Ooooh, you look so strong knockng down that straw man!


Amazingly, given the amount of bible quotes in this thread, it seems "the Bible said so" is not so much a strawman as the constant fall back when all else fails of some theists.

If we had no bible quotes in here then I'd agree with you.
Have you even bothered to read? Any Bible quotes here are either,

A. A prophesy that the person is attempting to show has been fulfilled, or
B. Answering an accusation concerning those particular passages, e.g. that they are are contradictory, inaccurate or reflect something contemptible, like slavery etc.

Now you could argue that they have not successfully done those things, but spare me the patent straw man of choosing an obviously silly thing that no one has said.

I challenge you to find anywhere that someone has made the argument that God exists or the Bible is true "because the Bible says so".

If that is the best that you can do, and you can't make a constructive contribution to the discussion, just let the grown-ups talk, and listen and learn something.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Symmetry on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:00 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:
crispybits wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:Ooooh, you look so strong knockng down that straw man!


Amazingly, given the amount of bible quotes in this thread, it seems "the Bible said so" is not so much a strawman as the constant fall back when all else fails of some theists.

If we had no bible quotes in here then I'd agree with you.
Have you even bothered to read? Any Bible quotes here are either,

A. A prophesy that the person is attempting to show has been fulfilled, or
B. Answering an accusation concerning those particular passages, e.g. that they are are contradictory, inaccurate or reflect something contemptible, like slavery etc.

Now you could argue that they have not successfully done those things, but spare me the patent straw man of choosing an obviously silly thing that no one has said.

I challenge you to find anywhere that someone has made the argument that God exists or the Bible is true "because the Bible says so".

If that is the best that you can do, and you can't make a constructive contribution to the discussion, just let the grown-ups talk, and listen and learn something.


i think he's referring to anti-evolution arguments here with regards to a Christian view on this. I''d suggest both you and he take a breather from annoying one another.

I'd also point out that the Biblical sense of prophecy doesn't mean predicting the future, or even telling the truth.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:33 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:
crispybits wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:Ooooh, you look so strong knockng down that straw man!


Amazingly, given the amount of bible quotes in this thread, it seems "the Bible said so" is not so much a strawman as the constant fall back when all else fails of some theists.

If we had no bible quotes in here then I'd agree with you.
Have you even bothered to read? Any Bible quotes here are either,

A. A prophesy that the person is attempting to show has been fulfilled, or
B. Answering an accusation concerning those particular passages, e.g. that they are are contradictory, inaccurate or reflect something contemptible, like slavery etc.

Now you could argue that they have not successfully done those things, but spare me the patent straw man of choosing an obviously silly thing that no one has said.

I challenge you to find anywhere that someone has made the argument that God exists or the Bible is true "because the Bible says so".

If that is the best that you can do, and you can't make a constructive contribution to the discussion, just let the grown-ups talk, and listen and learn something.


I suggest you try reading some of Lionz' posts, particularly from before around page 80ish. He's constantly quoting scripture without answering a point.

As for the prophecy thing, that's part of the whole problem too, as people are taking passages from a very long book that are at best vague and unspecific, and then applying them to real life events in an effort to give the Bible credibility. What reason do you think they might do that - ah yes to prove God exists....

And Symmetry, you obviously having been paying much attention if you think I'm worried about annoying a theist who doesn't get his facts right :wink:
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:22 pm

crispybits wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
crispybits wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:Ooooh, you look so strong knockng down that straw man!


Amazingly, given the amount of bible quotes in this thread, it seems "the Bible said so" is not so much a strawman as the constant fall back when all else fails of some theists.

If we had no bible quotes in here then I'd agree with you.
Have you even bothered to read? Any Bible quotes here are either,

A. A prophesy that the person is attempting to show has been fulfilled, or
B. Answering an accusation concerning those particular passages, e.g. that they are are contradictory, inaccurate or reflect something contemptible, like slavery etc.

Now you could argue that they have not successfully done those things, but spare me the patent straw man of choosing an obviously silly thing that no one has said.

I challenge you to find anywhere that someone has made the argument that God exists or the Bible is true "because the Bible says so".

If that is the best that you can do, and you can't make a constructive contribution to the discussion, just let the grown-ups talk, and listen and learn something.


I suggest you try reading some of Lionz' posts, particularly from before around page 80ish. He's constantly quoting scripture without answering a point.

Actually a lot of what he quotes has little to do with Christian scripture. But yeah, I have a whole thread dominated by pages of my answering his various assertions.. only to have him turn around and hit me with a barrage of essentially the same questions reworded, occasionally a few others and plenty of repeated photos. He seems to LOVE photos. Finds some pretty unusual ones, but as for carrying on a sensible discussion.. forget it.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:34 pm

crispybits wrote:I suggest you try reading some of Lionz' posts, particularly from before around page 80ish. He's constantly quoting scripture without answering a point.

As for the prophecy thing, that's part of the whole problem too, as people are taking passages from a very long book that are at best vague and unspecific, and then applying them to real life events in an effort to give the Bible credibility. What reason do you think they might do that - ah yes to prove God exists....

And Symmetry, you obviously having been paying much attention if you think I'm worried about annoying a theist who doesn't get his facts right :wink:
"...quoting scripture without answering a point." -- "...applying them to real life events in an effort to give the Bible credibility." Like I said: neither one even close to "It's true because the Bible says so."

Still waiting, either for "it's true because the Bible says so" or for your retraction.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:26 pm

Can you give me any other reason for trying to give the bible credibility in a thread about evidence for god?

Edit - regardless of that:

Lionz wrote:If the great pyramid backs up history according to Hebrew scripture and the scripture claims that there's a Creator of the heavens and the earth, then does the great pyramid itself not suggest that there's a Creator of the heavens and the earth?


Paraphrased:

If the bible is credible because of X evidence, and the bible says God exists, then God exists.

(bottom post on page 41)

Still waiting for a theist to admit he might be wrong....
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:55 am

Crispy, look at what you are saying here. You give as your opponent's position a ridiculous circular argument: "The Bible is true because the Bible says so", and when I challenge you to show me where any theist used that, you give me examples of people attempting to show the credibility of the Bible by showing the correlation of various things it says to the world outside itself, as if that were the same thing. Actually, it is exactly the opposite. It's an acknowledgement that "because the Bible says so" is not a sufficient suppoort in a discussion with a non-believer.

Now as I said, you could argue that they have not thereby really proved anything -- in many cases I might agree with you -- but you can't reasonably claim that they are just saying things are true because the Bible says so, that's insane.

Let's look at it another way. Let's say, as "devil's advocates" that it were all true -- that there is indeed a "God" and that he was behind this particular bunch of stuff being written and collected and recognized as his communication of what he's up to. Many people, yourself included, believe that it is no such thing, but just a bunch of stuff written by various people. By your line of reasoning, any attempt to show otherwise is the same as an illogical circular argument, and discarded out of hand. You say you are still waiting for a theist to admit he might be wrong, but it is you who have constructed your line of reasoning such that you never have to consider the possibility that you might be wrong.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:16 am

crispybits wrote:
Still waiting for a theist to admit he might be wrong....

You have already met one online.. ME. I have said many times that while I firmly and completely believe in my faith, I will never declare I can prove it, definitely not in a manner acceptable to anyone else.

I think several of us are waiting to hear you and several other atheists admit that we might possibly be correct, and WITHOUT disdainful "well, then the Easterbunny/flying gnomes, etc, etc, must be true garbage."

You claim to want honest and intelligent discussion, but honest and intelligent discussion doesn't begin with outright dismissing and deriding seriously and respectfully relayed views of others. (key on the "respectful" bit... I know I have sometimes lapsed, but usually in the form of throwing a mirror up).

In the end, there is a reason why these issues are declared faith and religion, not science. Its because they are just that.. beliefs, not proven facts. BUT.. just as there are many credible theories in science, in religion and faith there are many ideas that have credibility, even if not fully proven to the measures needed by science. In fact, many of the most followed scientific theories actually have no such proof. Seems like you are demanding of faith something more than you demand even of science... or have I missed your criticism of the theory of gravity somewhere?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:28 am

daddy1gringo wrote:Crispy, look at what you are saying here. You give as your opponent's position a ridiculous circular argument: "The Bible is true because the Bible says so", and when I challenge you to show me where any theist used that, you give me examples of people attempting to show the credibility of the Bible by showing the correlation of various things it says to the world outside itself, as if that were the same thing. Actually, it is exactly the opposite. It's an acknowledgement that "because the Bible says so" is not a sufficient suppoort in a discussion with a non-believer.

Now as I said, you could argue that they have not thereby really proved anything -- in many cases I might agree with you -- but you can't reasonably claim that they are just saying things are true because the Bible says so, that's insane.

Let's look at it another way. Let's say, as "devil's advocates" that it were all true -- that there is indeed a "God" and that he was behind this particular bunch of stuff being written and collected and recognized as his communication of what he's up to. Many people, yourself included, believe that it is no such thing, but just a bunch of stuff written by various people. By your line of reasoning, any attempt to show otherwise is the same as an illogical circular argument, and discarded out of hand. You say you are still waiting for a theist to admit he might be wrong, but it is you who have constructed your line of reasoning such that you never have to consider the possibility that you might be wrong.


That argument would hold water if they were saying that the things in the Bible about God are credible because of X or Y evidence, therefore God. But that's not the argument. Maybe it would be easier if I break it down a bit...

Lionz argument from that point in the thread:

Premise: There is a numerical relationship between the dimensions of the great pyramid and events in the bible
Sub-conclusion: The bible is historically accurate
------------------------------------
Premise: The bible is completely accurate (not logically proven by the initial premise and conslusion)
Premise: The bible says God exists
Conclusion: God exists.

That disconnect between claiming historical accuracy and then claiming supernatural accuracy destroys the logical chain. It becomes 2 separate arguments. The first part deals with the biblical history of the world, and the second part deals with the claims it makes to knowledge of the supernatural. Now just look at the second part underneath that line - do you notice anything there?

I almost can't believe we're going to this length anyways over what was a little bit of (admittedly biased) humour between two people without any real attempt at persuasion in any case, but whatever floats your boat.

PLAYER57832 wrote:
crispybits wrote:
Still waiting for a theist to admit he might be wrong....

You have already met one online.. ME. I have said many times that while I firmly and completely believe in my faith, I will never declare I can prove it, definitely not in a manner acceptable to anyone else.

I think several of us are waiting to hear you and several other atheists admit that we might possibly be correct, and WITHOUT disdainful "well, then the Easterbunny/flying gnomes, etc, etc, must be true garbage."

You claim to want honest and intelligent discussion, but honest and intelligent discussion doesn't begin with outright dismissing and deriding seriously and respectfully relayed views of others. (key on the "respectful" bit... I know I have sometimes lapsed, but usually in the form of throwing a mirror up).

In the end, there is a reason why these issues are declared faith and religion, not science. Its because they are just that.. beliefs, not proven facts. BUT.. just as there are many credible theories in science, in religion and faith there are many ideas that have credibility, even if not fully proven to the measures needed by science. In fact, many of the most followed scientific theories actually have no such proof. Seems like you are demanding of faith something more than you demand even of science... or have I missed your criticism of the theory of gravity somewhere?


Sorry Player, that was tiredness talking and me talking about daddy1gringo in particular rather than all theists. I hope I have generally been respectful in my arguments too (even if on occasion some people are offended by them, I sincerely offer no offence deliberately) and I also tend to mirror in my style of posting so there will be slips, I'm only human too.

But on your extended point, I have said (I think more than once) in this thread that I believe in a higher power of some sort. I haven't denied the possibility of God once. I have only stated that I think the Christian God concept and story seems so inconsistent and unbelievable to me (for very many reasons) that I do outright reject that particular flavour of what God is, along with any of them that impose a societal control structure in the shape of religious organisation. But I'm open to it being showed to me with evidence (just the same as someone can show me evidence of the theory of gravity by dropping a ball and watching it fall and measuring the rate at which it accelerates or whatever), and if someone can do so I'll happily (and eagerly) sign up.

I also think there are very many parts of the christian message which have great credibility. The tenets of love, tolerance, kindness, etc are not the parts I choose to reject.

To make an analogy, if I came to you tomorrow with a different theory of gravity, and it gave us pretty good results with experimental measurements, but it relied on adding in a whole bunch of really complicated assumptions and rules that sometimes contradicted each other and required interpretation by an expert (and I'd be the only expert to start with because I'm the one who thought it up, later people who have studied what I wrote and said may become considered experts too) - would you sign up to that theory or would you mock it?

Similarly, christians espouse their story of god, based on a book which requires and is subject to interpretation by experts to get definitive answers, and which often contradicts itself, and then claim it as truth (except for the bits that get revised down to allegory status over time). This for a God they claim is all powerful and exists inside each of us as a guiding force as long as we are open to him. And yet I'm expected to give it credence? Sorry but I will show no respect to the idea. The people, the christians, I will respect. The idea itself is despicable in detail.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:05 am

crispybits wrote:Similarly, christians espouse their story of god, based on a book which requires and is subject to interpretation by experts to get definitive answers, and which often contradicts itself, and then claim it as truth (except for the bits that get revised down to allegory status over time). This for a God they claim is all powerful and exists inside each of us as a guiding force as long as we are open to him. And yet I'm expected to give it credence? Sorry but I will show no respect to the idea. The people, the christians, I will respect. The idea itself is despicable in detail.

First, thank you for your clarification.

Beyond that, ALL ideas evolve, refine. People and groups of people together learn over time. Religion is no different.

Its like teaching a child. You begin with the simple, sometimes so simplistic they are almost incorrect. For example, when kids ask "are people animals?" A common response is "Well, we sure aren't plants!", without going into the whole liturgy of "we aren't fungus, bacteria.. etc, etc.". I advocate teaching exceptions early. (conifers keep their needles.. but then we have the Dawn redwood, etc.)

Maybe a better example is in phonics/english. (at least one I can think of immediately since one son is currently in kindergarten and learning to read right now ;) ). My son is learning that the "a" sound is either as in "ate" or as in "apple". As an adult, I could list quite a few variations... and very quickly he will pick up on those, but the teacher starts with those 2 sounds as a basic beginning.

I have gone through details of our change of how we see the Bible, but don't think this is the thread for it.. and I don't have the time right now, anyway.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby GreecePwns on Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:53 am

I think the problem with quoting Bible scripture, as Viceroy and others have, to prove that it has "predicted events" (the exact words that Viceroy has used) is indeed that it is so open to interpretation and even direct alteration. If one can interpret the Bible to have predicted X major world event, someone else could use that same verse to say it predicted Y major world event, for example and someone else can say it doesn't predict anything and in fact is a part they don't even believe in.

The Bible's vagueness was interpreted as a prediction of a future event, so what? Other religious and nonreligious texts and people have done the same thing - what makes the Bible special in this regard, other than the Bible saying itself that its special in this regard? The only answer Viceroy and Lionz have to that is to quote even MORE Bible scriptures and try to connect them to A or B major world events. What about the predictions that the Bible was wrong on? What about . To have total faith in whatever interpretation you have of a book, that interpretation must have some semblance of logic that applies to the entire text instead of an interpretation that depends on cherrypicking the parts that make you happy and ignoring the ones that don't. The latter is what most Christians are guilty of; "this part about [insert undesirable position] doesn't apply anymore solely because society changed," "this part is not part of the Bible because my sect doesn't believe it is."

In other words, if you're gonna quote the Bible to show it predicted major world events and therefore is the one and only true religious text, you have to do three things:
1. Define "major world event".
2. Show that the Bible predicted all major world events OR (show that it was never wrong in its predictions AND show that these predictions occur throughout the text).
3. Show that the Bible is a better predictor of major world events than other religious and nonreligious predictors, not only from its time but from more modern sources as well, in ways that don't involve the Bible or Christianity calling itself the best.

On top of that, such a viewpoint involves combining the question of whether or not Almighty Stuff exists with the question of deciding a "correct" religious text and interpretation of that text. These questions are separate, and treating them as one and the same inherently involves acting on knowledge of the supernatural that no one has, making the position unfalsifiable until we know for sure that Almighty Stuff exists.

TL;DR Those on the religious side continue to dance around the glaring unfalsifiability and circularity problems, despite their best attempts to distract from it.
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:05 am

GreecePwns wrote: The latter is what most Christians are guilty of; "this part about [insert undesirable position] doesn't apply anymore solely because society changed," "this part is not part of the Bible because my sect doesn't believe it is."


Indeed, to quote Stephen Fry during the IQ2 debate:

They (the Catholic Church) thought that slavery was perfectly fine, absolutely OK, and then they didn't, and what is the point of the Catholic Church if they say "well we couldn't know any better because nobody else did." Then what are they for?!?!
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:09 pm

comic boy wrote:I like Jefferson's appeal to ' Natural law ' , whether one chooses to believe such law is or is not related to a Deity is surely irrelevent to its impact on societal behaviour.


Precisely! Or to put it another way, it is necessary to assume a god in order to prevent any other person from assuming the position in his absence. In other words, rights do not come from the despot of the moment, they simply are.

That, of course, is slightly off topic to this tread. Sorry about that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:12 pm

crispybits wrote:
They (the Catholic Church) thought that slavery was perfectly fine, absolutely OK, and then they didn't, and what is the point of the Catholic Church if they say "well we couldn't know any better because nobody else did." Then what are they for?!?!


Actually they did not do any such thing. The first papal letter on slavery was, ironically, a few years before the New World was discovered and it was about the treatment of the natives of the Canary Islands.

Granted, the Catholic Church was not exceptionally vocal about slavery in the Americas and it didn't help that most of the letters by the Pope to the bishops in the Untied States were generally ignored, but it is wrong to say that the Catholic Church was ever a supporter of the racial generational slavery (wherein you owned not only the person but the children of said person) as practiced in the United States.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:03 pm

tzor wrote:
crispybits wrote:
They (the Catholic Church) thought that slavery was perfectly fine, absolutely OK, and then they didn't, and what is the point of the Catholic Church if they say "well we couldn't know any better because nobody else did." Then what are they for?!?!


Actually they did not do any such thing. The first papal letter on slavery was, ironically, a few years before the New World was discovered and it was about the treatment of the natives of the Canary Islands.

Granted, the Catholic Church was not exceptionally vocal about slavery in the Americas and it didn't help that most of the letters by the Pope to the bishops in the Untied States were generally ignored, but it is wrong to say that the Catholic Church was ever a supporter of the racial generational slavery (wherein you owned not only the person but the children of said person) as practiced in the United States.


In 1545 Paul repealed an ancient law that allowed slaves to claim their freedom under the Emperor's statue on Capital Hill, in view of the number of homeless people and tramps in the city of Rome.[14] The decree included those who had become Christians after their enslavement and those born to Christian slaves. The right of inhabitants of Rome to publicly buy and sell slaves of both sexes was affirmed.[15] Stogre (1992) asserts that the lifting of restrictions was due to a shortage of slaves in Rome.[16] In 1548 he authorized the purchase and possession of Muslim slaves in the Papal states.[17]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Paul_III

So a Pope said it's OK to own slaves, but the Catholic church never did?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:12 pm

crispybits wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Paul_III

So a Pope said it's OK to own slaves, but the Catholic church never did?


Wikipedia does have an occasional anti Catholic bias, considering the general nature of anti Catholic editors on the site in general. A better understanding can come from ETWN

Paul III: <Sublimis Deus>, 1537

The pontifical decree known as "The Sublime God" has indeed had an exalted role in the cause of social justice in the New World. Recently, authors such as Gustavo Gutierrez have noted this fact: 'The bull of Pope Paul III, <Sublimis Deus> (June 2, 1537), is regarded as the most important papal pronouncement on the human condition of the Indians." It is, moreover, addressed to all of the Christian faithful in the world, and not to a particular bishop in one area, thereby not limiting its significance, but universalizing it.

<Sublimis Deus> was intended to be issued as the central pedagogical work against slavery. Two other bulls would be published to implement the teaching of <Sublimis,> one to impose penalties on those who fail to abide by the teaching against slavery, and a second to specify the sacramental consequences of the teaching that the Indians are true men.

...

The common pretext of the allies of "the enemy of the human race," i.e. Satan, for enslaving the Indians was that they lacked the Faith. Some of the Europeans used the reasoning that converting the Indians should be accomplished by any means necessary, thus making the Faith an excuse for war and enslavement. Paul III stated that the practice of this form of servitude was "unheard of before now." This clearly indicates that the practice of enslaving an entire ethnic group of people—the Indians of South America—for no morally justifiable reason was indeed different from anything previously encountered.

...

Thus, we see that Eugene IV and Paul III did not hesitate to condemn the forced servitude of Blacks and Indians, and they did so once such practices became known to the Holy See. Their teaching was continued by Gregory XIV in 1591 and by Urban VIII in 1639. Indeed Urban, in his document <Commissum Nobis>, appealed to the teaching of his predecessors, particularly Paul III. The pontifical teaching was continued by the response of the Holy Office on March 20, 1686, under Innocent XI, and by the encyclical of Benedict XIV, <Immensa Pastorum>, on December 20, 1741. This work was followed by the efforts of Pius VII at the Congress of Vienna in 1815 to have the victors over Napoleon outlaw slavery.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:49 am

Hmmm, wikipedia or the global catholic network, which is more likely to give a full account? I read the whole ETWN articla and it doesn't even mention the change in law about claiming freedom or the approval of mulim slaves.

So I went looking, and rejecting any sources that were worded with only as much detail and in a very similar way to wikipedia (becuase I know a lot of sites will quote it without credit). How about the London School of Economics, where I found this paper:

http://www2.lse.ac.uk/economicHistory/R ... eSmith.pdf

Starts on the catholic section towards the bottom of page 7, I'm not going to quote it in here but it's pretty clear that the early catholic church through until after the time of Paul III, while not all endorsing slavery, often failed to condemn it. Others outright allowed it as long as the slave was a heretic.

I will quote a small section of the Romanus Pontifex, issued by Pope Nicholas V

“We weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit -- by having secured the said faculty, the said King Alfonso, or, by his authority, the aforesaid infante, justly and lawfully has acquired and possessed, and doth possess, these islands, lands, harbors, and seas, and they do of right belong and pertain to the said King Alfonso and his successors”


(emphasis added by me)

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Nichol05/index.htm - go there and follow the link, giving this link because it shows it's credibility as it's an online source for papal ducuments compiled for catholics and by catholics and administrated by catholics - the link take you to a less catholic source, and then the quoted bit is about half way through the 4th paragraph of the english translation.

And please note I'm not saying catholics today, or all catholics, or whatever are pro-slavery (I might argue that the catholic god is pro-slavery but that's a tangent) but it is clear that the church at times has said that slavery is just fine and authorised it.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:17 am

GreecePwns wrote:I think the problem with quoting Bible scripture, as Viceroy and others have, to prove that it has "predicted events" (the exact words that Viceroy has used) is indeed that it is so open to interpretation and even direct alteration. If one can interpret the Bible to have predicted X major world event, someone else could use that same verse to say it predicted Y major world event, for example and someone else can say it doesn't predict anything and in fact is a part they don't even believe in.

Which is why most mainline Christians really don't view the predictions in that manner.
GreecePwns wrote:The Bible's vagueness was interpreted as a prediction of a future event, so what? Other religious and nonreligious texts and people have done the same thing - what makes the Bible special in this regard, other than the Bible saying itself that its special in this regard? The only answer Viceroy and Lionz have to that is to quote even MORE Bible scriptures and try to connect them to A or B major world events.

First, forget Lionz.. and, to some extent Viceroy as well. Looking to them as "representatives" of Christianity is about like saying folks who camp out at area 54 are representative of scientists or even just representative of those who think life on other planets might exist. I don't care what kind of idea you bring up, people will give all sorts of ideas on it. That's because we are all human.

GreecePwns wrote: What about the predictions that the Bible was wrong on?

Show me one. I am not aware of any. (seriously!)
GreecePwns wrote:What about . To have total faith in whatever interpretation you have of a book, that interpretation must have some semblance of logic that applies to the entire text instead of an interpretation that depends on cherrypicking the parts that make you happy and ignoring the ones that don't. The latter is what most Christians are guilty of; "this part about [insert undesirable position] doesn't apply anymore solely because society changed," "this part is not part of the Bible because my sect doesn't believe it is."

Whoah, that is a pretty high standard you put forward.
Basically, you want a point by point detailed guidebook that gives you specifics on each aspect. You might consider Orthodox Judaism. Christianity, to contrast is more general. Christ gave us a new covenant, not that utterly did away with the old laws, but that said, essentially "OK folks, you don't need to get so bogged down in the details", or "you are grownups, now, not children. I give you the general guidelines and you can find the real answers yourself" (you can say some Jews do and always have done this.. thus the nuances and variations in Judaism, but remember Christ did generate an offshoot faith that is quite different from Judaism.).

GreecePwns wrote:In other words, if you're gonna quote the Bible to show it predicted major world events and therefore is the one and only true religious text, you have to do three things:
1. Define "major world event".
2. Show that the Bible predicted all major world events OR (show that it was never wrong in its predictions AND show that these predictions occur throughout the text).
3. Show that the Bible is a better predictor of major world events than other religious and nonreligious predictors, not only from its time but from more modern sources as well, in ways that don't involve the Bible or Christianity calling itself the best.

#2-- basically yeah, except why does a prediction have to be repeated "throughout the text" a prediction stated once that comes true is enough...
#3 This is a pretty high standard, one you would not ask of science. That is, believing one faith doesn't mean that you say everything in every other faith is false. In fact, to persist, any religion must have portions of "the" truth. If Chemistry and Geology both predict something similar, it doesn't take away from either line of thinking, it tends to give more credibility to the prediction. Similarly, many religions dance around some of the same truths. You have to look at the whole, not just bits and pieces. One prediction, one idea that is true doesn't necessarily prove a religion correct. Often it just means multiple religions have grasped some fundamental truth.

Or, put it another way... ever play telephone? Or just read the newspapers for science "facts". If you compare what is published in the journals to what is put forward was "fact" in the media, you get a wide range of variation. The Bible, for a Christian, is equivalent to the science journal. Church doctrine, dialogue, etc are more like the newsprint. Some are more accurate than others.

GreecePwns wrote:On top of that, such a viewpoint involves combining the question of whether or not Almighty Stuff exists with the question of deciding a "correct" religious text and interpretation of that text. These questions are separate, and treating them as one and the same inherently involves acting on knowledge of the supernatural that no one has, making the position unfalsifiable until we know for sure that Almighty Stuff exists.

TL;DR Those on the religious side continue to dance around the glaring unfalsifiability and circularity problems, despite their best attempts to distract from it.

It just a false question. You want to set up demands that just don't exist. Religion is not science. Religious texts were not set up with the same fact standards as science. This doesn't mean fiction versus fact, it means that the people reading and viewing these texts have a very different way of viewing the world, percieving things than modern science does.

The best example I can give would be in the many gross misunderstandings or disdainfull assessments of Native American knowledge. Only now have we reached, well a "maturity" perhaps to recognize that not everything they said was garbage, even if the logic upon which it was based, the way of analysis, etc were or just seemed different from the western way of thinking. Ironically, we now are often as critical of many things considered "fact" or "unquestionable" as we are of Native American ideas, perhaps more. I saw plenty of very upright and religious people in CA who did not wear long woolen stockings and heavy caps in 100 degree heat (some Mennonites and such, though they usually don't wear wool anymore). BUT here is the thing... if you talk to folks in the 1800's or even modern folks who adhere to one of the very concervative groups, they will often declare that they must dress how they do because God dictates it (more or less.. there are nuances there). However, there is no place in the Bible where it says this. There is a declaration to dress modestly, but "modesty" is a contextual concept that varies in time and place. There is talk of wearing your head covered, but it is written in the context of a particular place and situation.

The fundaments of Christianity were set out in the Bible "Love thy God and love thy neighbor as thyself". "Believe in him and ye shall be saved". The rest of the Bible falls into a variety of categories. Some is history, history as interpreted by individual people, but with the guidance of God. Are they false because they differ or is this a recognition that if you ask 2 people to describe ANY event they will give you slightly different accounts? Also, just saying that you give different accounts and saying that one falsifies the other are 2 different issues. If I stand on a streetcorner and someone else is on a roof, and a third down the street from an event we will all see different things and give different, but each true, accounts. Most scholars say that variations in the recording of events falls into that category, along with the idea that different people actually want to give slightly different messages.. much like you can learn the same subject from 2 different professors and while the fundamentals will be the same, the details may vary greatly (and each be true and valid!).

Again, you basically say that for a Bible, religious text to be true, it must be like a detailed scientific text... But that is a standard that even most science texts actually don't meet fully. Religious texts don't even try to make that base. In fact, they are made/written for people who largely have little concept of our modern idea of science that that type of thinking, that type of proof requirement. Their whole way of approaching the world differed from that of a scientist, so naturally any texts passed down will not be science texts. Demanding they are is like missionaries who saw natives dressed in skimpy clothing declaring that they lack sense and morals becuase they did not act as the Europeans did.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:19 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:It just a false question. You want to set up demands that just don't exist. Religion is not science. Religious texts were not set up with the same fact standards as science. This doesn't mean fiction versus fact, it means that the people reading and viewing these texts have a very different way of viewing the world, perceiving things than modern science does.


I would disagree with one point; religious texts were written with the science of the day in the minds of the writers. The writings were not a "science" textbook, however. They were not strict history books as we generally consider history books today. The truth of the Bible does not imply that everything is scientifically correct. (Let's face it, a hundred years from now people will laugh at some of the things we believed were scientific "facts.") The books of the Bible need to be considered in the context they were written in and the purpose for the writing of the book in the first place.

"The Bible tells us how to go to heaven; not how the heavens go."

Not understanding the purpose of a book of the Bible is the surest way of totally missing the point of the book of the Bible.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:53 am

So should someone rewrite the bible now ?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:28 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:First, forget Lionz.. and, to some extent Viceroy as well. Looking to them as "representatives" of Christianity is about like saying folks who camp out at area 54 are representative of scientists...


Player, you really should be more careful with your words. I never said that I am a representative of "Mainstream Christianity". In fact I attest that mainstream "Christianity" is nothing more than ancient paganism renewed and revived. The fact is that true Christianity is nowhere to be found. So I really don't know what you are referring to when you say "Mainline Christianity?" The true Christians of the world must all be hiding up in the hills or something because true Christianity just doesn't exist as I see it. I will say that I am a representative of the truth. But in a world based on lies, who really has time for the truth?

And BTW: It's area 51. I should know; I hang out there a lot. ;)
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