Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:24 pm

Then how successful has god been in spreading his word?
Just you?
You and some of the authorities you quote?
You and the Radio Church of God?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:45 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:So should someone rewrite the bible now ?



I mean if the bible was written in a certain time and place, and tailored to the understanding of the people of that time and place, wouldn't it make sense to have another go with modern global sensibilities in mind? And how would one go about getting the divine go-ahead on that? Or did the original authors not have some sort of divine sanction for their writing?

I'm not talking here about some re-translation into the modern vernacular, and please God (if you're there) don't let anyone ever attempt anything like the tacky "Treat me cool, Lord" from the 70's.

I mean, a new revelation is about due if we have to have reams of notes on context, on semantics, and so forth to even begin to understand the original..
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:18 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:First, forget Lionz.. and, to some extent Viceroy as well. Looking to them as "representatives" of Christianity is about like saying folks who camp out at area 54 are representative of scientists or even just representative of those who think life on other planets might exist. I don't care what kind of idea you bring up, people will give all sorts of ideas on it. That's because we are all human.
What makes Lionz' and Viceroy's interpretations (which have dadddygringo's endorsements and which are actually pretty popular in the Christian community) any more or less right than yours or Night Strike's or that of any sect of Christianity?

Whoah, that is a pretty high standard you put forward.
Basically, you want a point by point detailed guidebook that gives you specifics on each aspect.
No, I want a rational reason behind ignoring verse X, a rational reason for taking verse Y literally, and a rational reason for leaving verse Z open to hundreds of interpretations.

#2-- basically yeah, except why does a prediction have to be repeated "throughout the text" a prediction stated once that comes true is enough...

#3 This is a pretty high standard, one you would not ask of science. That is, believing one faith doesn't mean that you say everything in every other faith is false. In fact, to persist, any religion must have portions of "the" truth. If Chemistry and Geology both predict something similar, it doesn't take away from either line of thinking, it tends to give more credibility to the prediction. Similarly, many religions dance around some of the same truths. You have to look at the whole, not just bits and pieces. One prediction, one idea that is true doesn't necessarily prove a religion correct. Often it just means multiple religions have grasped some fundamental truth.
Viceroy and Lionz say that the Bible's predictive power is the justification for everything else in the book. For the Bible's predictive power to be a complete justification for the Biblical idea of the supernatural (that a omnipotent, omnipresent god created the world in 6 literal or figurative days depending on who you ask 6,000 or 6 billion years ago depending on who you ask and one day chose some girl to give birth to someone while apparently being a virgin(!) and that her son was actually god himself, but simultaneously god's son and he died and came back to life), there must be many predictions of major world events throughout the text that are proven true instead of a few isolated incidents. On top of that, since many religions and nonreligious sources make similar predictions, there has to be some reason which makes the Bible more believable than the Quran, Torah, Sports Illustrated, a scientific journal, a philosopher's writing, or literally any other source of predictions.


Or, put it another way... ever play telephone? Or just read the newspapers for science "facts". If you compare what is published in the journals to what is put forward was "fact" in the media, you get a wide range of variation. The Bible, for a Christian, is equivalent to the science journal. Church doctrine, dialogue, etc are more like the newsprint. Some are more accurate than others.
See the first point I made. This part is particularly laughable, because it's an argument in favor of taking the entirety of the Bible literally.

It just a false question. You want to set up demands that just don't exist. Religion is not science. Religious texts were not set up with the same fact standards as science. This doesn't mean fiction versus fact, it means that the people reading and viewing these texts have a very different way of viewing the world, percieving things than modern science does.
It's not scientific approach that's the problem, its a complete and total disregard for logic. As in my quote below:

GreecePwns wrote:TL;DR Those on the religious side continue to dance around the glaring unfalsifiability and circularity problems of their belief, despite their best attempts to distract from it.
Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:43 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:Then how successful has god been in spreading his word?
Just you?
You and some of the authorities you quote?
You and the Radio Church of God?


Hey, that is God's business not yours. You just worry about yourself and the final judgment that is appointed unto each one of us. ;)

"A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."
-Daniel 7:10

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
-Hebrews 9:27
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:11 pm

GreecePwns wrote:...there must be many predictions of major world events throughout the text that are proven true instead of a few isolated incidents.


Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible
http://www.reasons.org/articles/article ... -the-bible
August 22, 2003
By Dr. Hugh Ross

Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors.


(The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!

God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance.

Viceroy63 wrote:Prophecies revealed by fallen spiritual beings are never as accurate or far reached as those given by God through his word.
-Viceroy63


The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.

As economy does not permit an explanation of all the Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, what follows in a discussion of a few that exemplify the high degree of specificity, the range of projection, and/or the "supernature" of the predicted events. Readers are encouraged to select others, as well, and to carefully examine their historicity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1011.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1013.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1015.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 109.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1018.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).

This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 120.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(9) Jeremiah predicted that despite its fertility and despite the accessibility of its water supply, the land of Edom (today a part of Jordan) would become a barren, uninhabited wasteland (Jeremiah 49:15-20; Ezekiel 25:12-14). His description accurately tells the history of that now bleak region.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(10) Joshua prophesied that Jericho would be rebuilt by one man. He also said that the man's eldest son would die when the reconstruction began and that his youngest son would die when the work reached completion (Joshua 6:26). About five centuries later this prophecy found its fulfillment in the life and family of a man named Hiel (1 Kings 16:33-34).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 107).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(11) The day of Elijah's supernatural departure from Earth was predicted unanimously—and accurately, according to the eye-witness account—by a group of fifty prophets (2 Kings 2:3-11).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 109).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(12) Jahaziel prophesied that King Jehoshaphat and a tiny band of men would defeat an enormous, well-equipped, well-trained army without even having to fight. Just as predicted, the King and his troops stood looking on as their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man (2 Chronicles 20).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 108).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(13) One prophet of God (unnamed, but probably Shemiah) said that a future king of Judah, named Josiah, would take the bones of all the occultic priests (priests of the "high places") of Israel's King Jeroboam and burn them on Jeroboam's altar (1 Kings 13:2 and 2 Kings 23:15-18). This event occurred approximately 300 years after it was foretold.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1013).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since these thirteen prophecies cover mostly separate and independent events, the probability of chance occurrence for all thirteen is about 1 in 10138 (138 equals the sum of all the exponents of 10 in the probability estimates above). For the sake of putting the figure into perspective, this probability can be compared to the statistical chance that the second law of thermodynamics will be reversed in a given situation (for example, that a gasoline engine will refrigerate itself during its combustion cycle or that heat will flow from a cold body to a hot body)—that chance = 1 in 1080. Stating it simply, based on these thirteen prophecies alone, the Bible record may be said to be vastly more reliable than the second law of thermodynamics. Each reader should feel free to make his own reasonable estimates of probability for the chance fulfillment of the prophecies cited here. In any case, the probabilities deduced still will be absurdly remote.

Given that the Bible proves so reliable a document, there is every reason to expect that the remaining 500 prophecies, those slated for the "time of the end," also will be fulfilled to the last letter. Who can afford to ignore these coming events, much less miss out on the immeasurable blessings offered to anyone and everyone who submits to the control of the Bible's author, Jesus Christ? Would a reasonable person take lightly God's warning of judgment for those who reject what they know to be true about Jesus Christ and the Bible, or who reject Jesus' claim on their lives?

*The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists. As an example of their method of estimation, consider their calculations for this first prophecy cited:
•Since the Messiah's ministry could conceivably begin in any one of about 5000 years, there is, then, one chance in about 5000 that his ministry could begin in 26 A.D.
•Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10.
•Relative to the second destruction of Jerusalem, this execution has roughly an even chance of occurring before or after that event, that is, one chance in 2.

Hence, the probability of chance fulfillment for this prophecy is 1 in 5000 x 10 x 2, which is 1 in 100,000, or 1 in 105.

The above can be read online at...
(http://www.reasons.org/articles/article ... -the-bible)
Last edited by Viceroy63 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:26 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:Then how successful has god been in spreading his word?
Just you?
You and some of the authorities you quote?
You and the Radio Church of God?


Hey, that is God's business not yours. You just worry about yourself and the final judgment that is appointed unto each one of us. ;)

"A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."
-Daniel 7:10

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
-Hebrews 9:27



Well. if it's only you, you might to do a little re-evaluating.
I'm not asking GOd, I'm asking you.
And you made that my business by preaching at me.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:30 pm

P.S. whihc secular historians record the price for which Judas sold Jesus?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:28 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:P.S. whihc secular historians record the price for which Judas sold Jesus?


Earl, You should look into things like that for yourself. I could be lying to you. anyone can. Don't take my word for it or anyone's for that matter. Don't even take the Bible's word for it (If you ever manage to read it and see for yourself), Just Google search it... Historians, Judas, 30 pieces of silver... And see what pops up?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby daddy1gringo on Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:48 pm

GreecePwns wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:First, forget Lionz.. and, to some extent Viceroy as well. Looking to them as "representatives" of Christianity is about like saying folks who camp out at area 54 are representative of scientists or even just representative of those who think life on other planets might exist. I don't care what kind of idea you bring up, people will give all sorts of ideas on it. That's because we are all human.
What makes Lionz' and Viceroy's interpretations (which have dadddygringo's endorsements and which are actually pretty popular in the Christian community) any more or less right than yours or Night Strike's or that of any sect of Christianity?
Woah, hold on there. All I said is that they weren't simply using the silly circular argument, "The Bible is true because the Bible says so." That doesn't mean I endorse everything they say. I agree with them that God exists and that the Bible is his word to man (I think players### would say the same, and she and I agree on almost nothing else) but there are various things that each of them have said with which I would not want to be associated.

I suppose I agree with a lot of what they both say about the Bible being consistent with archaeology and making unannily accurate predictions through history, but I really don't think that's a worthwhile line to take in a forum like this, and have not done so.

The point I would like to make from all this, and I think Players would agree with me here too, is that other than a very VERY, few beliefs that are the absolute common ground, any doctrrine expressed by any Christian is no excuse for rejecting Christ as savior.

You don't believe that Genesis is literal? Fine; dont. Lots of Christians don't. (I'll go out on a limb here) You don't believe that homosexuality is an aberration and a spiritual problem that can be healed? Fine; don't. Lots of Christians don't.

You wouldn't side with those who don't believe those things because you think they are being inconsistent, "cherry-picking", and compromising? Fine, don't. Take your stand with the hard-liners. I really don't care, and I don't believe God does either.
The right answer to the wrong question is still the wrong answer to the real question.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby 2dimes on Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:02 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:P.S. which secular historians record the price for which Judas sold Jesus?


Earl, You should look into things like that for yourself. I could be lying to you. anyone can. Don't take my word for it or anyone's for that matter. Don't even take the Bible's word for it (If you ever manage to read it and see for yourself), Just Google search it... Historians, Judas, 30 pieces of silver... And see what pops up?


I went for it. I wonder if I did it wrong?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:29 pm

It's not just the inconsistencies between positions that many people have problems with daddy, it's inconsistencies within each position (or at least all of the non-100%-literal or non-100%-symbolic positions). How does anyone (christian or otherwise) decide which bits of the bible are literal truth, and which bits are symbolism and parable intended to guide us towards moral truth without being meant to be taken literally? And who decides which is which? And why does, for instance, your interpretation have more significance for you than Viceroy's (and vice versa) if you're both talking about the same immutable thing (absolute moral truth)?

Is God's absolute moral truth actually a mutable and constantly changing thing as fits the culture (because every culture has different moral standards and the biblee has been influential in many of these different settings), or is it a fixed and unchanging thing (and if so why does biblical interpretation change over the centuries)?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:40 pm

Viceroy, of those thirteen "predictions," how many of those do you think occurred after the prediction was recorded in the Bible?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:51 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:P.S. whihc secular historians record the price for which Judas sold Jesus?


Earl, You should look into things like that for yourself. I could be lying to you. anyone can. Don't take my word for it or anyone's for that matter. Don't even take the Bible's word for it (If you ever manage to read it and see for yourself), Just Google search it... Historians, Judas, 30 pieces of silver... And see what pops up?



I have read the entire bible for myself thank you, as I have many other religious works.
I have never read any historical documentation detailing the amount that Judas was paid for betraying Jesus.
I'm pretty certain there are none.
Perhaps you could help me out?
Or have you just accepted what the good Doctor said as yet another unimpeachable authority? You seem to have a lot of them.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:30 am

daddy1gringo wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:First, forget Lionz.. and, to some extent Viceroy as well. Looking to them as "representatives" of Christianity is about like saying folks who camp out at area 54 are representative of scientists or even just representative of those who think life on other planets might exist. I don't care what kind of idea you bring up, people will give all sorts of ideas on it. That's because we are all human.
What makes Lionz' and Viceroy's interpretations (which have dadddygringo's endorsements and which are actually pretty popular in the Christian community) any more or less right than yours or Night Strike's or that of any sect of Christianity?
Woah, hold on there. All I said is that they weren't simply using the silly circular argument, "The Bible is true because the Bible says so." That doesn't mean I endorse everything they say. I agree with them that God exists and that the Bible is his word to man (I think players### would say the same, and she and I agree on almost nothing else) but there are various things that each of them have said with which I would not want to be associated.

I suppose I agree with a lot of what they both say about the Bible being consistent with archaeology and making unannily accurate predictions through history, but I really don't think that's a worthwhile line to take in a forum like this, and have not done so.

The point I would like to make from all this, and I think Players would agree with me here too, is that other than a very VERY, few beliefs that are the absolute common ground, any doctrrine expressed by any Christian is no excuse for rejecting Christ as savior.

You don't believe that Genesis is literal? Fine; dont. Lots of Christians don't. (I'll go out on a limb here) You don't believe that homosexuality is an aberration and a spiritual problem that can be healed? Fine; don't. Lots of Christians don't.

You wouldn't side with those who don't believe those things because you think they are being inconsistent, "cherry-picking", and compromising? Fine, don't. Take your stand with the hard-liners. I really don't care, and I don't believe God does either.


I just reckon you have to have an incredibly high opinion of your species to imagine any of them can reliably interpret the word of the ultimate creator,should one exist.The word that best describes this is fatuousness,or stupid vanity.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:50 am

jonesthecurl wrote:P.S. which secular historians record the price for which Judas sold Jesus?


Which "secular" historians covered Jerusalem at the time of Christ?
Which "secular" historians would cover "history" to that level of detail?

I'll give you a hint ... NONE!

Velleius Paterculus, a Roman historian, died a few years before the crucifixion. But he concentrated on Romans, not on non-Romans.

Flavius Josephus, was not even born until several years after the crucifixion and was a Jewish historian with a very large chip on his shoulder.

So if you look at the timeline of historians you will see that there are few, far between, and none around A.D. 33.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:25 pm

tzor wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:P.S. which secular historians record the price for which Judas sold Jesus?


Which "secular" historians covered Jerusalem at the time of Christ?
Which "secular" historians would cover "history" to that level of detail?

I'll give you a hint ... NONE!

Velleius Paterculus, a Roman historian, died a few years before the crucifixion. But he concentrated on Romans, not on non-Romans.

Flavius Josephus, was not even born until several years after the crucifixion and was a Jewish historian with a very large chip on his shoulder.

So if you look at the timeline of historians you will see that there are few, far between, and none around A.D. 33.


my point. thank you.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:28 pm

Oh, for those of you who just blank out viceroy's diatribes, this was part of his proof for the veracity of biblical prophesies: getting the price right, AS VERIFIED BY SECULAR HISTORIANS.. Hence my question.

Viceroy, any backup on that point yet?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:42 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:Then how successful has god been in spreading his word?
Just you?
You and some of the authorities you quote?
You and the Radio Church of God?


Hey, that is God's business not yours. You just worry about yourself and the final judgment that is appointed unto each one of us. ;)

"A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."
-Daniel 7:10

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
-Hebrews 9:27


How many thousands of men have quoted these and similar passages...and are already dead?

Its a rhetorical question of course. All I can say is perhaps you should read that bit of advice, and maybe learn from it yourself.

Fitzy out.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:54 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors.


How do you explain this one Viceroy if there's no errors?

Ezekiel 26:3-14

Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord.

7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.


But....

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=tyre+l ... n&t=h&z=16
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Viceroy63 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:39 am

tzor wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:P.S. which secular historians record the price for which Judas sold Jesus?


Which "secular" historians covered Jerusalem at the time of Christ?
Which "secular" historians would cover "history" to that level of detail?

I'll give you a hint ... NONE!

Velleius Paterculus, a Roman historian, died a few years before the crucifixion. But he concentrated on Romans, not on non-Romans.

Flavius Josephus, was not even born until several years after the crucifixion and was a Jewish historian with a very large chip on his shoulder.

So if you look at the timeline of historians you will see that there are few, far between, and none around A.D. 33.


Well yeah, that makes sense since anyone who claimed to be a Christian was put to death at the time. So would the works of anyone who wrote about it be burned as well most likely.

So if you were living there at the time and you saw this persecution and murdering of Christians going on, you certainly are not going to write about it! At least not from a Christian's perspective. Why take the risk of death?

Also it is my understanding that historians usually write about history after the facts. So all historians basically write in hindsight. Those who write the news as it happens are not historians but reporters. And if they are not killing reporters at the time for reporting the news, then it is a good job to have. Although even the news is greatly biased and manipulated as well.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:44 am

So which secular historians wrote the stuff which your doctor claims as evidence for his claim that the bible has this real prophecy in it?
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:02 am

Viceroy63 wrote:Well yeah, that makes sense since anyone who claimed to be a Christian was put to death at the time. So would the works of anyone who wrote about it be burned as well most likely.


Not at that time. Rome generally treated the Christians as a Jewish Cult at first; it was only when the cult started converting non Romans in Rome that the Romans started to persecute them for their Atheism (Note that to the Romans an atheist was one who did not worship the Roman gods; you could worship anyone you liked as long as you worshiped their gods also). Israel was the only part of the empire that did not have the mandate to worship the Roman Gods and it also applied to all Jews in the Empire.

But the real reason may be somewhat more dull; most early Christians thought the second coming was practically any day now so they didn't bother to write things. It was only when they realized that this wasn't going to be the case and the Apostles were dying off did they think of writing things. So the first few decades of the "followers of the way" were kept orally.

In any event, it's important to note that the number of historians at the time could be expressed as a binary number; there was either one or there was none at any given time. There was no press of any kind whatsoever.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:30 am

jonesthecurl wrote:P.S. whihc secular historians record the price for which Judas sold Jesus?

Why would they have even bothered? Jesus was not considered a great figure except to his followers... still few in number until some time after his death.

As Jesus said, "A prophet in his own land....". Might as well add "in his own time" as well...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:31 am

tzor wrote:
crispybits wrote:
They (the Catholic Church) thought that slavery was perfectly fine, absolutely OK, and then they didn't, and what is the point of the Catholic Church if they say "well we couldn't know any better because nobody else did." Then what are they for?!?!


Actually they did not do any such thing. The first papal letter on slavery was, ironically, a few years before the New World was discovered and it was about the treatment of the natives of the Canary Islands.

Granted, the Catholic Church was not exceptionally vocal about slavery in the Americas and it didn't help that most of the letters by the Pope to the bishops in the Untied States were generally ignored, but it is wrong to say that the Catholic Church was ever a supporter of the racial generational slavery (wherein you owned not only the person but the children of said person) as practiced in the United States.

Tzor... there was also serious question as to whether non-Europeans were truly human, or "as human" as whites. Its easy to justify bad treatment of people who are not considered your equal, perhaps not really and truly people in the full sense.
(not saying ALL thought that, but it was a serious discussion).
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:34 am

tzor wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:It just a false question. You want to set up demands that just don't exist. Religion is not science. Religious texts were not set up with the same fact standards as science. This doesn't mean fiction versus fact, it means that the people reading and viewing these texts have a very different way of viewing the world, perceiving things than modern science does.


I would disagree with one point; religious texts were written with the science of the day in the minds of the writers. The writings were not a "science" textbook, however. They were not strict history books as we generally consider history books today. The truth of the Bible does not imply that everything is scientifically correct. (Let's face it, a hundred years from now people will laugh at some of the things we believed were scientific "facts.") The books of the Bible need to be considered in the context they were written in and the purpose for the writing of the book in the first place.

I believe I was saying just that... :?
tzor wrote:"The Bible tells us how to go to heaven; not how the heavens go."

Not understanding the purpose of a book of the Bible is the surest way of totally missing the point of the book of the Bible.

Like I said....
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