Post Any Evidence For God Here

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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:30 pm

crispybits wrote:I can't believe you keep coming back. You said "So unless we too are supernatural and our free will transcends the natural world, then what you're saying doesn't matter for this argument." I reminded you that in the premises of the argument we have souls, and now you're wriggling around saying something about our supernatural souls being governed by natural laws.

Keep digging :)


I dont think hes digging...seems more like hes throwing dirt on your dead argument.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:32 pm

Unless we are supernatural your argument fails

We are supernatural

Well nyerr your argument still fails because our supernatural souls are governed by natural laws

What did I miss?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:35 pm

crispybits wrote:I can't believe you keep coming back. You said "So unless we too are supernatural and our free will transcends the natural world, then what you're saying doesn't matter for this argument." I reminded you that in the premises of the argument we have souls, and now you're wriggling around saying something about our supernatural souls being governed by natural laws.


There were two parts of that condition. The second part was "and our free will transcends the natural world." Since that is not the case (we're talking about free will within the context of the natural world), your observation is irrelevant.

You may be unfamiliar with the conjunction "and," so your mistake is forgiven.
Last edited by Metsfanmax on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:37 pm

crispybits wrote:Unless we are supernatural your argument fails

We are supernatural

Well nyerr your argument still fails because our supernatural souls are governed by natural laws

What did I miss?


Your own punchline from the looks of it.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:40 pm

Our souls transcend the natural world. Our free will is a function of our souls.

It's entirely internally consistent with the other christian premises, which are themselves entirely separate from natural principles.

To defeat the argument you ither have to show why our souls, our very being, is not the bit of us that makes choices, or that somehow the other premises are not internally consistent. I've seen neither so far.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:53 pm

crispybits wrote:Our souls transcend the natural world. Our free will is a function of our souls.

It's entirely internally consistent with the other christian premises, which are themselves entirely separate from natural principles.

To defeat the argument you ither have to show why our souls, our very being, is not the bit of us that makes choices, or that somehow the other premises are not internally consistent. I've seen neither so far.


The premise we began with was that a given action was predetermined to happen in the natural world. The burden is on you to show how any of this supernatural nonsense addresses a hard logical fact, which is that if an action (that takes place in the natural world) is known by something that knows everything (about that natural world), then it is predetermined. If it is predetermined, that means that when the action happens, we didn't make a choice, we were fulfilling whatever was predestined to occur. Whether supernatural motives ended up causing this to occur, or instead it was deterministic physical laws that caused it to occur, it had to have occurred, which means we didn't make a choice.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby tzor on Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:56 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I had some really great coffee the other night. Therefore, there is a God.


Now are you saying this in the vein of Jackie Gleason's “Mmmmboy, that’s some good coffee!”
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:10 pm

God might know everything about the natural world, but that knowledge is supernatural. That's the entire point. If a natural being knew then I'd be agreeing with you, but we're not talking about something being naturally known. If the knowledge of the natural world is outside of the natural world and doesn't have influence on the natural world, then it doesn't cause a paradox in natural laws in the way you describe.

Premise: A natural paradox happens when a natural thing breaks a natural law
Premise: A supernatural thing is not a natural thing
Conclusion: Supernatural things cannot cause natural paradoxes
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:25 pm

crispybits wrote:God might know everything about the natural world, but that knowledge is supernatural. That's the entire point. If a natural being knew then I'd be agreeing with you, but we're not talking about something being naturally known. If the knowledge of the natural world is outside of the natural world and doesn't have influence on the natural world, then it doesn't cause a paradox in natural laws in the way you describe.

Premise: A natural paradox happens when a natural thing breaks a natural law
Premise: A supernatural thing is not a natural thing
Conclusion: Supernatural things cannot cause natural paradoxes


A key point about the original argument is that it's not the fact that God knows it, that's relevant. It's the fact that this information is known, with absolute certainty. That alone is enough to require that the event will happen with no alternatives, because otherwise it could not be known with certainty (therefore contradicting the assumption).
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:30 pm

Kind of, but still irrelevant. Any supernatural thing could hold the supernatural knowledge of everything natural without violating any natural principle. You're right that it doesn't matter that it's God, but you still haven't showed how anything supernatural could violate a natural law that doesn't act upon it.

Look at those 2 premises and that conclusion and tell me where the fault is.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:44 pm

I typed out a long post to explain supernatural things, but I realized that I can do it better with a few questions:

If something is supernatural, and if this something exists, then doesn't that make it natural and therefore bound by some laws? Furthermore, why are we assuming that anything is supernatural and why does it matter?

Let's say that God is supernatural. What does that have to do with him knowing the future, and why would it make a difference? If we are to assume that he is supernatural, why would that change his omniscience? What does being supernatural have to do with knowing all outcomes? What difference does it make?

None. None at all. You're putting dots everywhere but you're not actually connecting them...it's honestly not worth the effort to get involved in this specific part of the debate if you're not going to make points and link them together. Although tzor was using faulty arguments, they at least responded to the issue at hand.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:25 am

oss spy wrote:I typed out a long post to explain supernatural things, but I realized that I can do it better with a few questions:

If something is supernatural, and if this something exists, then doesn't that make it natural and therefore bound by some laws? Furthermore, why are we assuming that anything is supernatural and why does it matter?

Let's say that God is supernatural. What does that have to do with him knowing the future, and why would it make a difference? If we are to assume that he is supernatural, why would that change his omniscience? What does being supernatural have to do with knowing all outcomes? What difference does it make?

None. None at all. You're putting dots everywhere but you're not actually connecting them...it's honestly not worth the effort to get involved in this specific part of the debate if you're not going to make points and link them together. Although tzor was using faulty arguments, they at least responded to the issue at hand.


From a theistic standpoint,which neither Crispy or myself share,you have assumed the supernatural,and once you have made that assumption IMHO you can argue all sorts of crazy shit with a degree of plausibility.It's crazy shit but very hard to knock down..
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:07 pm

I didn't assume anything was supernatural. I only said that, if God is omniscient, then there is no free will.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:56 pm

No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:00 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
crispybits wrote:Indeed - there are much stronger arguments for a lack of God than that one.

For example (and this is just a quick one as I'm back to work today so haven't got a lot of time - boo!) if I know that you're both rational and hungry and I have a bucket full of sand and a bucket full of doughnuts, I know if I offer you the choice you're going to pick the doughnuts. But I haven't removed your free will, you have the ability to pick the sand.


If a person is perfectly rational and picking the doughnuts is the rational choice (debatable given the unclear health benefits of baked goods which are high in sugar and fat), then they have no free will. They are making the choice that rationality dictates that they make. They don't have the ability to pick the sand; if they do, then your original assumption was wrong.


False anthropomorphism. 'Rationality' itself is not a decision-making entity. Rationality cannot 'dictate'. That's just silly.

Sorry, mets, try again.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby MeDeFe on Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:00 pm

crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

Logical paradoxes on the other hand...
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:09 pm

What is logic Mets? (serious question though it may seem spurious - I would say that just like causality all those pages back logic cannot be said to be definitely true outside of a logical universe - supernatural things could easily be entirely illogical)
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:12 pm

crispybits wrote:What is logic Mets? (serious question though it may seem spurious - I would say that just like causality all those pages back logic cannot be said to be definitely true outside of a logical universe - supernatural things could easily be entirely illogical)


Did you mean to direct that question to MeDeFe?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:14 pm

What if god is imperfect? http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... rfect-god/

show: Article



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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby crispybits on Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:16 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
crispybits wrote:What is logic Mets? (serious question though it may seem spurious - I would say that just like causality all those pages back logic cannot be said to be definitely true outside of a logical universe - supernatural things could easily be entirely illogical)


Did you mean to direct that question to MeDeFe?


Sorry yes, slip of the fingers.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:47 pm

crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:55 pm

oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.


Actually, it really isnt simple, and your point is not there because of it.

If you assume he is omniscient, then you must also accept he is omnipotent, in which case, anything is possible, so its just a matter of not understanding the exact logic of it.

I agree, the logic of all of it is insane, but calling it simple and that you've made your point, is just wishful thinking.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby AAFitz on Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:01 pm

crispybits wrote:God might know everything about the natural world, but that knowledge is supernatural. That's the entire point. If a natural being knew then I'd be agreeing with you, but we're not talking about something being naturally known. If the knowledge of the natural world is outside of the natural world and doesn't have influence on the natural world, then it doesn't cause a paradox in natural laws in the way you describe.

Premise: A natural paradox happens when a natural thing breaks a natural law
Premise: A supernatural thing is not a natural thing
Conclusion: Supernatural things cannot cause natural paradoxes


I'm sorry, is your argument that God cannot cause a natural paradox now?

You are suggesting he is omniscient, and presumably omnipotent, but cannot cause a natural paradox, and you don't find that in any way ridiculous?
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby oss spy on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:56 am

AAFitz wrote:
oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.


Actually, it really isnt simple, and your point is not there because of it.

If you assume he is omniscient, then you must also accept he is omnipotent, in which case, anything is possible, so its just a matter of not understanding the exact logic of it.

I agree, the logic of all of it is insane, but calling it simple and that you've made your point, is just wishful thinking.


I still don't see why that has anything to do with omniscience removing free will.
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Re: Post Any Evidence For God Here

Postby chang50 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:15 am

oss spy wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
oss spy wrote:
crispybits wrote:No, you did the opposite, you assumed that God is natural. If he is not natural then he cannot cause natural paradoxes

(and remember the whole natural / supernatural argument revolves around "exists under natural conditions and obeys natural laws", just because he exists doesn't make him natural, he has to exist within the confines of nature for that to hold, which is pretty difficult when he created it)

(also remember I'm not trying to argue for something I actually believe when I say God is this or God is that, I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed)

If God is supernatural, and we have supernatural immortal souls, then it is entirely consistent that these supernatural agents can act other than by natural principles, and them doing so doesn't break any natural principles, those laws simply do not apply. Determinism is a natural principle based on both causality and the uniformity of natural laws.

Or, if I'm wrong and you're not arguing against a specifically christian God. can you tell me where you got the idea that God is omniscient that didn't also involve the idea of souls, or a creator God (because without that source you're simply creating a straw man).


I'm not assuming anything about God other than that he has omniscience. My argument is centered around his knowledge and that's it; I don't understand why you're introducing him being natural or supernatural. If God knows everything, then we don't have free will. Did I say how he obtained his knowledge? No. Did I assume anything about him other than his knowledge? No.

It's simple: omniscience removes free will, and that's the only point I'm trying to make. You're attacking a point that isn't even there.


Actually, it really isnt simple, and your point is not there because of it.

If you assume he is omniscient, then you must also accept he is omnipotent, in which case, anything is possible, so its just a matter of not understanding the exact logic of it.

I agree, the logic of all of it is insane, but calling it simple and that you've made your point, is just wishful thinking.


I still don't see why that has anything to do with omniscience removing free will.


The alleged deity,if it exists,does so outside the natural world,once you believe in this fantasy world all bets are off,all our fine logic meaningless.This is why theists are so hard to argue with..
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